Gradual Acceleration

In golf many amateurs do what is called 'hitting from the top' of their back swing.

That's not a position from where one can or should apply force or power.

Once the hands & club have fallen or been turned & lowered into the slot, from there one can apply all the force & power that one wants & will get a good solid hit on the ball a high percentage of the time.

If one would look at a super slow motion video some would be rather surprised how late in the swing that the real acceleration & release of the 'stored power' occurs.

I know the 2 'sports' are not exactly the same but some would be surprised how similar they are in many regards.

One wants the maximum acceleration to be at & past where the ball would be if the ball where not there.

That is where & why many seem to miss the points made because the ball is there & they have analysed what happens when the ball is there.

But that is not what one wants. That, in golf is what is said to be hitting at the ball instead of swinging 'through the ball'.

Hence, CJ's phrase of maximum acceleration 'at & during contact' even though it has been pointed out by the 'science guys' that the acceleration stops at contact & resumes again after contact.

Like CJ said, much of what he said was only going to be for & understood for about maybe 35% of those that heard what he said.

Best Wishes.
 
Neil said:
OK, I was mistaken about hitting near the miscue limit. But, the same principle applies in hitting it at the optimal point. With a jerky stroke, one is much less likely to hit the cb accurately.
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Agreed, accuracy is very important... we tend not to think about the actual % offset. It's a good thing for us that there is rarely if ever any benefit to actually hitting right on the miscue zone.

Colin
 
I agree with everything Pidge says on this. It's clear that we have been working on the same things (even though I'm not as good a player as he is) because my experiences mirror his in every way. The slow start of the forward swing did feel like it induced a jerk in my cue action in the beginning, until I learned to let go of some tension in my arm. After that it became more and more smooth. A snooker table IS the best place to practice this sort of thing, because it is natural on that surface to hit the balls a bit firmer.

If I were to practice this on a pooltable, I'd set thick cuts or straight ins and hit them firmly in the "stun-range". It's a great way to work on the most technical of all shots, the controlled stun-run-through, or stun-screw for that matter. Generally I find that the shorter your stroke is, the tougher it's going to be to get it smooth. When you watch Stephen Lee hit a soft shot with a tiny backswing and still time it perfectly with a smooth movement, I must admit, I have no idea how he does it. I'm beginning to doubt if this can be learned by just anyone. For me, longer strokes are required to achieve this, and I've been working on it a lot. There is something to be said for talent. On the very soft shots, it helps to have a loose grip. I prefer a much firmer grip most of the time, though.

Anyway Ronnie O'Sullivan is the perfect model of the "ever accellerating cue". He does it in a very natural way, that is easier to emulate than Lee or Hendry IMO. Watch the line-up exercise to see the principle in action with good camera work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHeeJy_SJFw
 
Sorry for rambling on a bit, this is my favourite topic and hobby-horse. I think that many people tend to hold up- or bind their strokes on the pool table. With super fast cloth and cushions this is only natural, but it can be detrimental to a smooth, well timed stroke.

I think the best way to experience the right way to do it is by practice stroking without a ball. Hold the cue in the looses possible way (only resting on the hand, no actual grip). Use a long bridge and let the cue swing forward naturally until the hand hits the chest (if you lock the elbow). Concentrate on the weight of the cue moving forward and you will feel it "wants" to go straight, if you are doing it right. Now slowly start to VERY gently add accelleration without loosing the feel of the cue doing the work. It's a very distinct feeling, but hard to describe. You can add grip pressure gradually. If you feel at any point that you are "muscling" the cue, take down the power, grip pressure or both. All such adjustments to the stroke should be done gently and gradually IMO. The soft grip tends to kill the muscles tendencies to bind up or tense. Also, doing this without the ball for a while you will lose the "hit anticipation" that ruin many peoples strokes. There is no ball to stop your movement.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
I agree with everything Pidge says on this. It's clear that we have been working on the same things (even though I'm not as good a player as he is) because my experiences mirror his in every way. The slow start of the forward swing did feel like it induced a jerk in my cue action in the beginning, until I learned to let go of some tension in my arm. After that it became more and more smooth. A snooker table IS the best place to practice this sort of thing, because it is natural on that surface to hit the balls a bit firmer.

If I were to practice this on a pooltable, I'd set thick cuts or straight ins and hit them firmly in the "stun-range". It's a great way to work on the most technical of all shots, the controlled stun-run-through, or stun-screw for that matter. Generally I find that the shorter your stroke is, the tougher it's going to be to get it smooth. When you watch Stephen Lee hit a soft shot with a tiny backswing and still time it perfectly with a smooth movement, I must admit, I have no idea how he does it. I'm beginning to doubt if this can be learned by just anyone. For me, longer strokes are required to achieve this, and I've been working on it a lot. There is something to be said for talent. On the very soft shots, it helps to have a loose grip. I prefer a much firmer grip most of the time, though.

Anyway Ronnie O'Sullivan is the perfect model of the "ever accellerating cue". He does it in a very natural way, that is easier to emulate than Lee or Hendry IMO. Watch the line-up exercise to see the principle in action with good camera work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHeeJy_SJFw
Click to expand...

In Ronnies very first shot in that video, you can see that he starts the forward stroke slow for an inch or so, then accelerates. ( 20 sec. mark in the video starts the stroke)
 
Pidge said:
Because your cue is never level, the butt is always higher than the tip, especially on draw shots think of the slow start as letting the butt naturally swing for the first inch before you use any muscles to drive the cue forward. If you try to control the cue for the first inch with your arm then it is hard to do. As you pull the arm all the way back let it naturally return the cue forwards before getting the biceps involved. This was like a light bulb moment for me when trying to master it.
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that's a great tip, Pidge!
 
Neil said:
In Ronnies very first shot in that video, you can see that he starts the forward stroke slow for an inch or so, then accelerates. ( 20 sec. mark in the video starts the stroke)
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Here's a video where you can see the same thing in Shane's stroke. There's a distinct acceleration at the start of every stroke.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naiMHnSQOLI


Looks like his stroke speed is a bell curve, and he contacts the CB at the peak of the curve.
 
Colin Colenso said:
From throw friction formulas we know that friction, or the relative force component of friction decreases when the relative surfaces move more quickly relative to one another. Dr. Dave is well acquainted with the actual formula's used, perhaps he could add some insights here too.
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This effect is well-documented for ball-ball friction during a collision, resulting in many of the well-known effects involving throw. However, the effect is different for a ball sliding on a cloth.

Colin Colenso said:
Just wonder if anyone has considered or done any math regarding the relative amounts of friction for a high spinning CB compared to a low to moderate spinning one
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In the following paper, results from careful experiments show that the sliding friction between a ball and the cloth is fairly constant over a typical range of sliding speeds, with the sliding friction actually increasing slightly with speed. This is the opposite of the ball-ball collision friction effect.

Witters, J. and Duymelinck, D., "Rolling and sliding resistive forces on balls moving on a flat surface," American Journal of Physics, Vol. 54, No. 1, pp. 80-83, January, 1986.

Regards,
Dave
 
Colin Colenso said:
Dr. Dave has some good graphs on this. Interestingly, on longer power draw shots, the optimum is around 80% max offset as I recall
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That is correct. For a long power-draw shot, it is best to not push the miscue limit too much (although, 80% of max offset is a lot closer to the miscue limit than some people might think). For those interested in more info, see:

draw shot physics-based advice
and
"How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?" (BD, September, 2011)

The math and physics details, along with the graphs you mention, can be found in:

TP B.8 - Draw Shot physics

Enjoy,
Dave
 
The CB doesn't care how the cue gets there.. It only cares about the direction and velocity of the cue tip strike...

All the other stuff is garbage..
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Interesting that the "instant natural roll" hit is also 80% of maximum (follow in that case). Probably coincidental...?
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You are correct on both counts. 80% is the best tip offset for both immediate roll and for best long power draw. And it is just a coincidence (the physics is very different for the two types of shots).

BTW, the fact that overspin (topspin greater than the natural-roll amount) is so difficult to achieve is relevant in showing how close 80% of max tip offset really is to 100% of max tip offset (the miscue limit).

Regards,
Dave
 
Wybrook said:
The CB doesn't care how the cue gets there.. It only cares about the direction and velocity of the cue tip strike...

All the other stuff is garbage..
Click to expand...

The first two lines are correct. The third line is not. The reason being is that all that other stuff is what determines just where you actually hit the cb and at what angle and speed.
 
Wheels33 said:
Here's a video where you can see the same thing in Shane's stroke. There's a distinct acceleration at the start of every stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naiMHnSQOLI

Looks like his stroke speed is a bell curve, and he contacts the CB at the peak of the curve.
Click to expand...
For those interested, lots of info (and a pertinent video) on this topic can be found on the stroke acceleration resource page.

It is very common for the cue speed to increase smoothly (with controlled acceleration) during the forward stroke, with the speed leveling off and becoming fairly constant (with the cue no longer accelerating) as the cue tip strikes the ball.

Regards,
Dave
 
Just FYI, we've been teaching the pause at the back, for a smooth transitiion, for more than 30 years! SPF still rules! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

HurdyGurdy said:
I've been practicing the exact shot. I'm also taking visual cues from a snooker player, but I'm watching Stuart Pettman, specifically his 117 straight pool run on a 10 foot table (its on youtube).

My accuracy has increased, and not just on draw/screw shots, with the pause at the transition of the back-stroke and a slower release.

Snooker players seem to know what they're doing. Go figure.
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Neil said:
There are probably quite a number on here that have toyed with it or used it because I believe a number of the instructors on here also teach it.

All it is, is bringing the cue back slowly, making sure it stays on the line you chose. Then, pause. When ready to go forward, you just start slowly to keep the cue on the same line, then pick up speed during the stroke.

All it really is, is a controlled start to the forward stroke, instead of a sudden movement to the forward stroke.
Click to expand...

I've never come across this idea on here before other than when Pidge mentioned it previously. Of course I could have missed it but I've read a lot of the instructional material on here so I would have to see it to believe it.

Scott Lee said:
Just FYI, we've been teaching the pause at the back, for a smooth transitiion, for more than 30 years! SPF still rules! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

You may have but to be fair you also teach that EVERYBODY has a pause between their backstroke and their forward one. This isn't exactly the same pause that Pidge is talking about when he mentions it.
 
dr_dave said:
For those interested, lots of info (and a pertinent video) on this topic can be found on the stroke acceleration resource page.

It is very common for the cue speed to increase smoothly (with controlled acceleration) during the forward stroke, with the speed leveling off and becoming fairly constant (with the cue no longer accelerating) as the cue tip strikes the ball.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Because it's so common for the cue speed to increase smoothly during the forward stroke as you mentioned above and because it seems to happen so naturally I really don't see the point of purposely trying to start your forward stroke even slower. I've tried this several times and it leads to the exact opposite of a smooth stroke. It seems like just having a distinct pause at the end of the backstroke would be enough to ensure a nice smooth acceleration of the cue on the forward stroke.

Messing with your delivery between the point of the pause and the finish of the cue doesn't seem like a good idea to me and for me it feels practically impossible.
 
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