Great Players vs Big Gamblers

C

Champ9ball

Jody McLaughlin
All anyone hears about anymore is how much somebody won and all of a sudden they are a great player. I believe there are at least 2 great players that no one has ever heard of to evey big gambler that everyone thinks is great. What does everyone else think? I just know that there are a lot of great players that have responsiblities in the world and can't travel around to big tourneys all of the time and have other obligations other than than carrying their life savings in their pocket looking for a score on a pool table.
 
two different kinds of players, two totally different criteria. my opinion, you're only the best when you're tested against the best, and the world will never legitimize the backroom gambler as a great player,,,only those few pool denizens who saw him will.

lots of people swear that don willis, aka cincinnati kid, was the greatest.....they also say no one ever knew his real speed. so how is one supposed to extrapolate that?
 
So, what is a legitimate test among the best players? One tournament race to 9 alternating breaks? Most straight up tourney players will never match up with the big time gambler for an 8hr session. And the type of players I'm talking about only make it to maybe one or two descent tournaments in a year. So, what does it take to be considered a great player?
 
I think the IPT provided a chance to see some so called hustlers, who avoid tournaments, come out of the woodwork, but the results were still dominated by known tournament players.

It may have been different in the past, but I think the speed of many gamblers who avoid making a name for themselves, tends to be exagerated.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
I think the IPT provided a chance to see some so called hustlers, who avoid tournaments, come out of the woodwork, but the results were still dominated by known tournament players.

It may have been different in the past, but I think the speed of many gamblers who avoid making a name for themselves, tends to be exagerated.

Colin
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There could be much exageration about the speed of some players. Although over a 12 hour period one is given the oppritunity for this magical speed to appear. This is hard to rach in a short 1 hour to 90 minute race as in the tournament setting.

There are tournament players and there are gamblers. For example, James Walden is a very good player, but, not exactly known for his tournament dominace. However, lock horns with him and if both are still standing at the end of 12 hors, james becomes one of the better players in the country. David Matlock had this going for him as well.

IMO, there is a lot to be said for both and the wise respect and recognize both.
 
ironman said:
There could be much exageration about the speed of some players. Although over a 12 hour period one is given the oppritunity for this magical speed to appear. This is hard to rach in a short 1 hour to 90 minute race as in the tournament setting.

There are tournament players and there are gamblers. For example, James Walden is a very good player, but, not exactly known for his tournament dominace. However, lock horns with him and if both are still standing at the end of 12 hors, james becomes one of the better players in the country. David Matlock had this going for him as well.

IMO, there is a lot to be said for both and the wise respect and recognize both.
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It's true that we rarely get the chance to see the top players battle it out over a long session, and it makes sense that some players are more suited to long sessions.

But I still suspect, if there were a 10 million dollar tourney with races to 101, we wouldn't see many strange names in the last 16.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
It's true that we rarely get the chance to see the top players battle it out over a long session, and it makes sense that some players are more suited to long sessions.

But I still suspect, if there were a 10 million dollar tourney with races to 101, we wouldn't see many strange names in the last 16.

Colin
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Your point is well taken.

Race to 101? At my age, I would have to take a nap at about 35.
 
A player that i can think of that plays the tournaments and for the cash respectively, is Buddy Hall. To this very day he still tries to match up for the cash after a tournament. I think he just plays 4 hour sessions these days but can hang and beat anybody if everything is right. James Walden is a great gambler but he has taken some losses when he matched up with good good players. I remember Jimmy Wetch beating him on his table OKC. Beating and losing to Keith McCready. I think Buddy Hall clipped him in a double one-pocket - nine ball session about 7-8 years ago. I watched Danny Harriman play him some in Tusla before. I think they have split the results. I know for a fact Cliff Joyner has beaten James a few times. My buddy did see James beat Michael Coltrain giving mike the 8 and beat him for a 20,000 session. James is just a few balls from being elite status. I know he stayed clear of Marcus Chamat a few years ago when Marcus was in Tulsa looking for action. I heard Chamat is a great player for the cash. David Matlock to this day if he's in the mood and things are going his way in life, can and will beat just anybody in the world playing double sessions. Barbox and 9 foot nine ball. He has beaten buddy hall before playing double sessions. I have neve heard of anybody doing that before. I remember one time Jose parica woofed at Matlock he told matlock he had the last 2 on a bar table and dave woofed back and said "fu#k that you got the last 2 on barbox" They never played for some reason. A few years ago there was some rumor of David playing Efren a double session but it never materialized.
 
It makes no sense for big gambler to come forward even for a huge pot payout. The longterm ramifications of even briefly showing his true speed could cost him thousands over the next few years.
 
Pushout said:
Just what is a "double session" you refer to??
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A double session that i was talking about, was playing 2 different types of games. Example: Playing one set of 9 ball and maybe one set of 1-pocket. The dave matlock example was he would play anybody a set on the barbox and one on the big table if he had to.
 
Thanks

JAM said:
Americans Dave Matlock and James Walden pocketed a nice chunk of cheese on the IPT tour when it was in existence.

Players of this ilk are not the traditional tournament soldiers like the men's governing body of so-called "touring pros." A climate exists in the States in which pool action is taboo. The purists of the American pool culture continue to thumb their nose at players like Dave Matlock and James Walden.

Tournaments do not offer much in the way of financial gain when the expenses are so high to participate in them. If you're a great American player who likes to gamble, what advantage is there to travel a tournament trail which caters to short races and rack riggers? Basing a player's skills set on 9-ball today is like saying a craps player is great because of he can throw dice with proficiency. The game of 9-ball is nothing more than luck today. Throw in the rack riggers, and it's a survival of the rack mechanics.

Though the Derby City Classic and Super Billiards Expo provide a platform for players like James Walden and Dave Matlock to engage in games of stake, the existing lot of tournaments are not very attractive. Imagine playing all week long in a tournament, incurring all of the associated expenses, and coming in, say, fifth and pocketing $250, as an example.

The regional tours today are the best bang for the buck, and it's about as good as it gets in the wonderful world of pocket billiards in America.

Picture below Keith McCready, Ronnie Wiseman, and James Walden, who'd rather play for $1,500 than invest it in a race-to-9 tournament where you must win, place, or show to break even.

JAM
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For posting this picture of James Walden. I had no idea that might be him when he and a couple road players came through awhile back. I just knew they could play a little. Ha! An understatment. I guess with the introduction of the IPT a lot of former road players had to come out of the closet much to their detriment. I am sure they will be making a lot less money now, at least for sure when they come through my town. LOL.
 
> I've been fortunate to see James in high gear playing 9-ball. I came to the conclusion that it takes someone pretty close to Archer's speed to beat him even. As good as Bobby Pickle plays,2 years ago at the Super Bowl tournament in Memphis,he was talking about giving Bobby the 7-8. He said that if the bet got right,he probably had 60/40 the best of it at that game. Take a minute to ponder that. Tommy D.
 
I think someone should start a tournament like the old "Hustler Tournaments" in Johnson City. You could have a tournament room and then another room where people could gamble. Then the tournament players and the hustlers would all be under one roof and could match up when not playing the tournament. IMHO.
 
hardluckjones said:
I think someone should start a tournament like the old "Hustler Tournaments" in Johnson City. You could have a tournament room and then another room where people could gamble. Then the tournament players and the hustlers would all be under one roof and could match up when not playing the tournament. IMHO.
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Ummmmmmm...:confused:

I think they call it the Derby City Classic....:D

Russ
 
Tommy-D said:
> I've been fortunate to see James in high gear playing 9-ball. I came to the conclusion that it takes someone pretty close to Archer's speed to beat him even. As good as Bobby Pickle plays,2 years ago at the Super Bowl tournament in Memphis,he was talking about giving Bobby the 7-8. He said that if the bet got right,he probably had 60/40 the best of it at that game. Take a minute to ponder that. Tommy D.
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Bobby does play well and is one of the most entetaining around.

Knowing James the way I feel I do, I have toagree with him on being the 60-/40 favorite. Again, it is 9-ball and anything can happen. James though has a way of rising for the dough and the longer it lasts, the more confident he feels. He is like a Trotter, he needs to get good and sweaty before he feels he can run.

Bobby though is no stranger to marathons or gambling either.
 
I remember one time that Jim Teel?? A big stakehorse in OKC who backed James Walden said "i will put my player in the box with any black player" Well Amarillo Slim heard that and got his mental wheels working. He tried to get mark tadd to come to OKC and play James Walden. At that time beleive me, Mark had the best of it by far. I hung around cue-topia for about 3-4 months when he was playing good and that guy played top notch. Conversely i used to live in tulsa and watched james several times so i knew his speed as well. the only problem was thats when Mark Tadd just gave up pool, became a born again christian and started driving a Coke truck. I'm sure that would been a huge pool session. When i first moved tho Las Vegas the day before i got there, Mark lost a heartbreaking money session to Santos S. from the filippines. he wanted to play again but the pinoy's -busta,efren, parica, santos and i think luat were on their way to LA for a tournament. 3 days before that he gave Tony Watson the 7 and beat him like a drum. Mark Tadd played big money matches as well. I remember him losing to CJ Wiley at the Cue Club in vegas for a lot. Then the next week he flew to Dallas and beat CJ on his own table at CJ's. Talk about strong. Not many people can say they beat CJ in dallas on his table. CJ used to beat up on Jimmy Wetch every time they played. I remember vividly Jimmy Wetch beating James Walden on his table in OKC. if i had to name a few players that could beat james in a big session. are- 1. David Malock- james never really ever tried to mess with him when they are both in Oklahoma together. if Dave's head is right and the session is long enough he is subject to play with any top american and beat them. 2. Buddy Hall- in short hour sessions, buddy beats james.3. Marcus Chamat (the swede) he tried several times to play james in tulsa to no avail. Mark the big stakehorse out of LA said nobody plays the swede for less than 10,000. 4. Keith McCready has beat and has been beaten James before. In their respective primes Keith is the way better player. 5. Shannon Daulton can beat james in any game regardless what the situation is.
The cool thing about James is that he is a stone cold money player. the whole state of Oklahoma beleives in him. If you get a player to beat him you can pratically win the state. I remember when he played Danny Harriman. The whole billiard palace was divided on who was betting on who. Danny is the overall better player. But James is the better money player. They shared sessions. Right when i left Tulsa i heard danny beat james. then i heard a few weeks later that James avenged his loss. when david matlock was in ponca city it was the same thing. Just about open to the world.
 
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