Guaranteed Added Money & Your Feelings on It

Fast Lenny

Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
Well this past weekend there was a one pocket tournament in San Leon TX that some of you might have seen. It was being advertised as $5000 guaranteed added and that the 32 player minimum for this had been secured. They ended up drawing many top names who had to travel from out of town, the count was 18 players total. So they added $2500 I believe instead. I get kind of sick of hearing stories like this, I imagine you needed to get at least 3rd place to break even on the expenses.

I just know its tough for the players to make money as it is but for them to be drawn someplace where expenses are at least $1000 or more stinks. I really would like to do a $5,000 guaranteed added here in Phoenix for one pocket one day and its good to see that this amount of money would draw the top names but the money will be secured before its advertised. What do people think about rooms and promoters doing this?
 
Fast Lenny said:
Well this past weekend there was a one pocket tournament in San Leon TX that some of you might have seen. It was being advertised as $5000 guaranteed added and that the 32 player minimum for this had been secured. They ended up drawing many top names who had to travel from out of town, the count was 18 players total. So they added $2500 I believe instead. I get kind of sick of hearing stories like this, I imagine you needed to get at least 3rd place to break even on the expenses.

I just know its tough for the players to make money as it is but for them to be drawn someplace where expenses are at least $1000 or more stinks. I really would like to do a $5,000 guaranteed added here in Phoenix for one pocket one day and its good to see that this amount of money would draw the top names but the money will be secured before its advertised. What do people think about rooms and promoters doing this?
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I think there need to be truth in advertising, and the terms of the added money added needs to be spelled out in black & White.

I recall a “recent event” in Phoenix Arizona Metro Area where there was a Entry Fee that was over $25.00 and under $75.00. The promoted did not mention any where in the ADVERTISING, and or Entry Form. there was it 15, or 20 BUCKS A PERSON, “REGISTRATION FEE” skimmed off by the Promoter thus lowering the amount of pay out.

I remember once going to a Advertised Add Tournament of $300.00, and the ADVERTISEMENT STATED $300.00 Add, and there was no mention of full field, or with “X” Players in the Pool Paper running the add. Well as the 1 PM Sign up came closer, and there was only 10 or 11 Player. I asked the Bar Owner is the Event going to happen?, is the Event going to have the advertised $300.00 Add. The reply was something about such few players, there was NO way they could do as advertised. So I went home, and never returned to this Bar to play in a tournament again. It was my regular Tuesday night place to play for over 2 years, where I very rarely missed a week of there tournament. I did not go there for over 18 months, played a couple of Tuesday nights in the 110 degree summer heat, the heat was too much in the bar, and in the end the place closed!

Like I said advertising of a weekly tournament, or big money ad tournament should spell out the information in black & White so if it takes a special number of players, to add the $300.00, or $10,000.00 everyone who can reads the advertising, or entree fee should be able to understand the advertising.

Green Fee, Splitting Quarters, Alternating Breaks, Rack 4 Yourself, BCA Rules, etc. should also be spelled out in Black & White JMHO!:wink:
 
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Fast Lenny said:
Well this past weekend there was a one pocket tournament in San Leon TX that some of you might have seen. It was being advertised as $5000 guaranteed added and that the 32 player minimum for this had been secured. They ended up drawing many top names who had to travel from out of town, the count was 18 players total. So they added $2500 I believe instead. I get kind of sick of hearing stories like this, I imagine you needed to get at least 3rd place to break even on the expenses.

I just know its tough for the players to make money as it is but for them to be drawn someplace where expenses are at least $1000 or more stinks. I really would like to do a $5,000 guaranteed added here in Phoenix for one pocket one day and its good to see that this amount of money would draw the top names but the money will be secured before its advertised. What do people think about rooms and promoters doing this?
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It's par for the course. I traveled to Vegas several years ago for a 1pocket tournament that, according to the owner on the phone just days before the event, said "64 players (were signed up) but there would probably be more." When I got there and put my name on the list I was #2.

And so what can you do other than just refuse to support that event and/or that promoter in the future? Unfortunately, the pickings are so slim that, almost inevitably, players, like moth to the flame, with go again and again.

BTW, Lenny, did you get my PM from last week, or are you just ignoring me :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
It's par for the course. I traveled to Vegas several years ago for a 1pocket tournament that, according to the owner on the phone just days before the event, said "64 players (were signed up) but there would probably be more." When I got there and put my name on the list I was #2.
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Would you ever return to that place again?
 
Lenny,

First you might want to define what "added money" really is.

You have an event where you have a $100 entry fee, no greens fees, a $25 per player registration fee and the promoter "adds" $500. There are 50 players at the event. There should be $4250 in prize money available to the players. My question is, did the promoter really add the $500 or did the players add it from their entry fee or registration fee? In my view, the players added the money.

At a second event, the entry fee is $100. There is a greens fee of $15. The promoter "adds" $500. There are 50 players again. The prize fee should be $4750. Now who added the money?

Someone care to explain the difference to me in a reasoned tone of voice?

Lyn
 
The reason people can get away with this is because there is really no proof of wrong doing. If in fact, this is something that happens all the time, the players should learn from it and move on.

Not that it is right, but you gotta look at things from the promoter's point of view. With that in mind, if you're a big name player of whom people seek, you should be careful of every angle because you are the one who has more to lose.

When dealing with people and large amounts of money, always, always, always....... get it in writing. Had each and everyone of the top players like Gabe, Scott, Cliff had any type of guarantee in writing, things would be different now. Now, it's just a matter of he said, she said, and you can't blame yourself for getting burned, just don't let it happen next time.
 
Lenny we see it all the time. I'm usually in pure shock when the tournament adds what it says it will add. The problem is most added money comes in the form of registration fees. Get the money in advance and advertise that even if 3 people show up the money will be added.

The best example is the Jacoby Tour. They get almost no players at the vast majority of their tournaments and no matter what 1st place always pays a thousand. Don't matter if 4 people show up(this has happened multiple times). I like guaranteeing the top of the payouts like saying 1st is 1k and 2nd is 750 and 3rd is 500 even if only 3 people show up. That at least lets the players know what they can win at a minimum.
 
Fast Lenny said:
Well this past weekend there was a one pocket tournament in San Leon TX that some of you might have seen. It was being advertised as $5000 guaranteed added and that the 32 player minimum for this had been secured. ?
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Ok, so if they were told the minimum was secured and the money would be paid, then the promoter clearly lied.....sounds like the promoter either lied to try and dray the needed 32, or they did not "secure" the funds from the 32 as they advertised.....

If I came from a good distance, either driving hours or by plane, I'd be pissed.....the dude lied, plain and simple.....now, if someone misheard and he did not say the full field was already guaranteed, well then $2500 ain't such a bad deal....

Additionally, setting up or going to a tournament on Super Bowl Sunday and expecting a full field was probably a bad idea altogether IMHO.....
 
That's why they put "$___ added with ___ players". It's common knowledge even when it's not on the flyer.

If your question is whether promoters should stand behind the money added regardless of the number of players. My answer is still no - promoting pool tournaments isn't very rewarding and I think people should be appreciative of the people who keep the tournaments going instead of b****ing about money added. If you want to fatten up the pot you can always have a calcutta.
 
Several years ago there was this event in the Valley of the Sun, it was billed as a 25K Add. The Top 8 Finishers, the TD, and others at Events End got RUBBER CHECKS.
rubber-check.gif
Not sure if the people with the Rubber Checks ever got 100% of what was owed! BUMMER!
 
Lyn,
I'll take a crack at this.. but I want you to know that I don't recommend Green fees or Admin fees or Registration fees for any local House run tournament.

If a promoter is Adding money, based on attendance it should be noted on any flier. I.E. $10/player up to 30 players.
If a promoter is Addeing money and just states the amount "$500 Added" and not player attendance requirement, they should stick to it or cancel the event.

IMO once a player pays the Green, Admin or Registration fees it is not part of the prize fund. It goes to House and/or the promoter. What they do with that money is their business. If they decide to give it back to the players, as added money, that is also their business.

I see that the players seem to be paying these fees just to make sure the added money is there. It all adds up in the end. At this point I would expect the promoter/owner to REALLY add some money to the Greens/Admin/Registration fees for an even bigger Added amount.

Make sense?



But, and this, IMO, is very important, there is a tournament, and there are payouts.



cardiac kid said:
Lenny,

First you might want to define what "added money" really is.

You have an event where you have a $100 entry fee, no greens fees, a $25 per player registration fee and the promoter "adds" $500. There are 50 players at the event. There should be $4250 in prize money available to the players. My question is, did the promoter really add the $500 or did the players add it from their entry fee or registration fee? In my view, the players added the money.

At a second event, the entry fee is $100. There is a greens fee of $15. The promoter "adds" $500. There are 50 players again. The prize fee should be $4750. Now who added the money?

Someone care to explain the difference to me in a reasoned tone of voice?

Lyn
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mikeyfrost said:
Lenny we see it all the time. I'm usually in pure shock when the tournament adds what it says it will add. The problem is most added money comes in the form of registration fees. Get the money in advance and advertise that even if 3 people show up the money will be added.

The best example is the Jacoby Tour. They get almost no players at the vast majority of their tournaments and no matter what 1st place always pays a thousand. Don't matter if 4 people show up(this has happened multiple times). I like guaranteeing the top of the payouts like saying 1st is 1k and 2nd is 750 and 3rd is 500 even if only 3 people show up. That at least lets the players know what they can win at a minimum.
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How do they sustain this? Sponsorship money?? I dont think most local bars can guarantee $1000 payout for first place if only 4-5 people show up to every tournament.
 
Hi y'all

Had opened a similar thread some days ago:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=216616&highlight=cutting+added+money

IMO the "green fee"/reg fee" is definately a joke, at least as long as there is no promoter coming to somebody's pool hall to hold a tour or similar there. A pool hall organizes a tournament to get customers, get a long time reputation in the pool industry and get the word spread out about their establishment. They are supposed to make money with sales and not off the entry-fees! Of course it's known that pool players don't spend the big time money hanging out in the pool hall during a tournament but I guess if they have more to spend they also might do it ;)

Anyway, I am very surprised how some pool halls are advertising their tournaments: a standard white sheet with some information on it, maybe a phone number and a picture of a 9- or 10-ball to show what game it's gonna be.

To show you what I am used to I show you a flyer of an annually held tournament in the area I live (apologize for not having it in English but I guess you see what I mean):

http://www.pbcnagoldtal.de/nagoldtalopen/ngdopen2010_plakat.pdf

As you can see the pool hall is really looking for and also finding sponsors. Even if it's only 200.- each that can make a true 2000.- added and they don't need any certain number of players to show up. Of course, it's work involved to do that. But players and spectators keep this event in mind for a long time! On the other hand I think a cut added money like last weekend at Casper's - to be fair I have to mention at this point that they added the advertised 1500.- for the 9-ball tourament just 2 weeks earlier although only around 26 players showed up - doesn't neither help the pool hall nor the players.

Kindest Regards

Marcus
 
The Caspers event was advertised all along as 5,000 with 32 players. Bad weather, timing etc. When only 18 players show up, the venue is screwed.

I like adding so much per player.

5,000/32= 156.25 per player added or even 150 per player added.

With 2,500 added for 18 it only comes to 138 added per player. Still good, but there was no guarantee posted for less than 32. That's the scary part, imo. Caspers still added a fair amount.

Bottom line is this. In this economy, it's a great thing to have venues like Caspers willing to put the money out there. I would like to see more consistency in the added with all events.

Ray
 
Total_Chaos13 said:
How do they sustain this? Sponsorship money?? I dont think most local bars can guarantee $1000 payout for first place if only 4-5 people show up to every tournament.
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The tour promoter is a stone rock star that's how. I got no idea how he comes up with the cash but it is absolutely always there. Same thing can be said about the GSBT, Shannon Daulton absolutely always has the added money even if 6 people show up, which has happened in goofy weather.
 
added money

This is an old question. The answer (to me) is to be very specific in how you word the information.

Guaranteed added means = it will be added no matter how many show up
$1000 added based on 32 players = about $30 added per player

Having owned many pool rooms, I feel it is fair to have a 'green fee' - just to cover the wear and tear and loss of normal business.

To often people who have never run trournaments or owned rooms try to 'handcuff' the room owners to unrealistic situations. A pool tournament is to help build business - but if the room looses too much, it will have the opposite affect.

This is supposed to be a win-win situation.

Promoters MUST be careful how they word events.

BTW - I see both sides of the situation (rooms and players) - it is hard to always make things work.

CSI has a couple of policies: until you are paid, you are NOT in the event and will NOT be counted as a player. If we say GUARANTEED, that is what it means. Example: US Open One Pocket and US OPen 10-Ball. They are guaranteed added $10,000 and $25,000 respectively. The Jay Swanson is $3,000 guaranteed added (no matter what) and $4,000 added if the field of 192 is reached.

US Bar Table is $25,250 Guaranteed added. None of the events are based on number of entries (except the women's events are based on 16 players). That is stated on the fliers.



Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
 
I think the main problem here is people came on here claiming to have over 32 already signed up. Whether they were affiliated with the event or not it was understood by players on here that more than 32 were showing up. There was even a mention of adding more than the original $5k. Like I said, I'm not sure whether the person claiming over 32 was affiliated with the event or not but that was what was told to the players.

I know I was going to bring a crew down from OKC. Some to play some to sweat the match and we all got snowed in. If we would have risked life and limb on the icy interstates and blew a wad on gas and hotel rooms and then had the payout cut I'm sure we wouldn't have been happy. I was just gonna stake the deal for a good weekend but the guys that make their living on this stuff would have missed out on bigger tournaments elsewhere.
 
The only thing I was stating is that when you put online that your past the 32 player mark and the $5,000 is secured and possibly more money will be added and then all the top guys show up but then it all comes apart it stinks. I am just having a discussion about it, if I advertised on here that I had over 32 player signed up and the money was guaranteed added and players came out based on what I said then I would have to come out of my pocket.

Either way for 18 players they did add a good deal of money but just do not put you have 40 something players signed up because to me signed up means paid. Maybe next time it will all come together as it should have and as it was planned, guess things happen which seems to be the norm in pool. Carry on.
 
Fast Lenny said:
The only thing I was stating is that when you put online that your past the 32 player mark and the $5,000 is secured and possibly more money will be added and then all the top guys show up but then it all comes apart it stinks. I am just having a discussion about it, if I advertised on here that I had over 32 player signed up and the money was guaranteed added and players came out based on what I said then I would have to come out of my pocket.

Either way for 18 players they did add a good deal of money but just do not put you have 40 something players signed up because to me signed up means paid. Maybe next time it will all come together as it should have and as it was planned, guess things happen which seems to be the norm in pool. Carry on.
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who won the tourney?
how much did it pay?
 
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