Handicapped tournaments

[fcee06]

The A/B players have the best shot at winning the tournaments. They should want higher entries. The C/D players have a low percentage shot at winning. So to get them in, they gotta pay less. They risk less but also have less of a chance to actually win.

Even with the games on the wire, a C/D player has little chance against an A player. The fire power of a C/D just isn't enough. I know from experience.

I've had some good days at the tristate but always get tripped up by an A player.

It's real easy to complain from the top looking down, but put yourself in the shoes of someone who cannot win but still shows up.

This is the best point of them all. In most cases it doesnt matter how much a C/D player gets, they still dont win. The key to it all is they feel that have a chance to get some money back so they play. Its the same 3 or 4 a palyers that snap these weekly tournaments off each and every week. Eventually it will only be strong players playing then shortly after that no one is showing up. I have seen this happen more and more. In my opinion that handicap has to favor the weaker players for the tournaments to remain filled and successful. The B,C,and D players are the draw. Thats the bulk of the entries. But yet and still its the A players walking away with the cash every week. Just my humble opinion.

FC

 

[Maniac]

This is the best point of them all. In most cases it doesnt matter how much a C/D player gets, they still dont win. The key to it all is they feel that have a chance to get some money back so they play. Its the same 3 or 4 a palyers that snap these weekly tournaments off each and every week. Eventually it will only be strong players playing then shortly after that no one is showing up. I have seen this happen more and more. In my opinion that handicap has to favor the weaker players for the tournaments to remain filled and successful. The B,C,and D players are the draw. Thats the bulk of the entries. But yet and still its the A players walking away with the cash every week. Just my humble opinion.

FC

And a good humble opinion too! It's been the same in any area of the metroplex I've played tournaments in. The lower ranked players are merely "donating". It's almost 100% for sure that a higher ranked player will win. But....they should win. Their skills have earned them the right to win. But don't make it so darned tough for a lower skilled player to finish somewhere in the money if you still want them coming back week after week and "donating".

Maniac

 

[justadub]

Nobody EVER begs for a spot in pool??????? Really??????

Maniac

:killingme: :rotflmao1: :rotflmao:

 

[genomachino]

Here's a new twist I think............

Not trying to start a flame war of any kind...but this
was recently brought up by more then a few players at a local weekend tournament
with all the new tours popping up and some old ones adjusting
how does everyone feel about lower"c or d"players paying less money to enter but then also getting games on the wire?
This by defintion(poolhall definition)is a double handicap
it applies to a b c or d players but obviously the c/d get the best of it

i would love to hear everyones opinion-your rating doesnt matter but you could state it if it aids in your opinion

Have the entry fees the same. Everyone mostly has the same expences going to the tourny unless they live right there. Many of the b, c and d players are usually local.

Many of these player even with the handicap are still an underdog. But with a couple of good rolls can still beat anyone. But the little reduction in the entry fee makes no real difference on whether they play. Whats the difference, $40 or $30. it's like so what.

Now the b c and d players that think they can win it should pay an extra 10 15 or 20 to get the spot. Play even or pay a little extra to get the spot.

The ones that don't take the spot with the extra money and play even get a free rebuy if they lose their first match. It's like triple elimination for them.

This way the ones that just want to play some competition can play more without more cost and the ones that think they can win get the spot and will feel like they have a better chance and they will.

Draw up a 64 man chart with 40 players and just put them back in the bye spots in the first round.

Now there is more good news for the place that's holding the tournament. There will be a full house for alot longer. They will eat more, drink and be merry. Help pay for any added money.

Bottom line is really nobody goes to a tournament to lose. They go there to win. Even when I didn't know how to play well I went after the big dogs thinking I could win. Sometimes I would win. Then eventually I started winning alot.

It gave me the drive to want to get better.

It made me want to practice. I went to the poolhall and practiced. This is one of the things that makes this whole pool world work a little better. Practice to play better and support the places that have these great tournys.

Just handing out big spots teaches many players to do nothing but show up. How can they win if they don't work at the game a little.



Just a couple of new ways I don't think anyone has ever considered.

Might work and might not. Who knows until someone tries it.



Have a great day geno..........

 

[12310bch]

how does everyone feel about lower"c or d"players paying less money to enter but then also getting games on the wire?
This by defintion(poolhall definition)is a double handicap
it applies to a b c or d players but obviously the c/d get the best of it

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It is not 'by definition' a double handicap. The guys that play the horses know that. You are comparing apples to oranges. If you think of horse racing then there is the weight added to a horse to equalize the race then there is the return on your investment (odds on your bet or your entry fee). Weight may alter the odds but not vice verse.

I'll use an extreme to show an example.... If a player ( a pro) had a 100 percent probability of winning a game of pool against a C player , the C players bet ,even if it returned 150 percent ( 150 to 1) would be worth less than nothing.

If you reduced the probability of the pro winning to 50 percent by adding games to the wire (Increasing the weight) then everybody would pay the same entry fee (bet). But there is no possible weight increase within reason that you can add that would even the probability out. So you have to increase the 'return of investment'( entry fee or bet) by lowering the amount of investment ( increasing the odds) for the C player.

The C player becomes a long shot. Odds don't increase or decrease a Pro players chances of winning only weight does. But it will increase the payoff for somebody betting against the odds. So no matter what the C player pays as an entry fee (within reason) odds are he will be nothing more than a contributor to the Pro players payoff.

This is not a double handicap and in some circumstances of wide differences of skill amongst competitors it is the only way to entice the less skilled to play.

Does that make any sense to anyone?

 

[the420trooper]

Three things:

1. Life is not fair.

2. Neither is pool.

3. "A" players didn't get to be "A" players by asking for a bigger spot. They reached that level by paying their dues and getting their asses kicked for YEARS before getting good enough to hang with the good players.

 

[Maniac]

how does everyone feel about lower"c or d"players paying less money to enter but then also getting games on the wire?
This by defintion(poolhall definition)is a double handicap
it applies to a b c or d players but obviously the c/d get the best of it

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is not 'by definition' a double handicap. The guys that play the horses know that. You are comparing apples to oranges. If you think of horse racing then there is the weight added to a horse to equalize the race then there is the return on your investment (odds on your bet or your entry fee). Weight may alter the odds but not vice verse.

I'll use an extreme to show an example.... If a player ( a pro) had a 100 percent probability of winning a game of pool against a C player , the C players bet ,even if it returned 150 percent ( 150 to 1) would be worth less than nothing.

If you reduced the probability of the pro winning to 50 percent by adding games to the wire (Increasing the weight) then everybody would pay the same entry fee (bet). But there is no possible weight increase within reason that you can add that would even the probability out. So you have to increase the 'return of investment'( entry fee or bet) by lowering the amount of investment ( increasing the odds) for the C player.

The C player becomes a long shot. Odds don't increase or decrease a Pro players chances of winning only weight does. But it will increase the payoff for somebody betting against the odds. So no matter what the C player pays as an entry fee (within reason) odds are he will be nothing more than a contributor to the Pro players payoff.

This is not a double handicap and in some circumstances of wide differences of skill amongst competitors it is the only way to entice the less skilled to play.

Does that make any sense to anyone?

Yes, because I have been in this situation. I occasionally entered into $50 handicapped tournaments where I have played players that could have spotted me 5 games on the wire (in a race to 7) and still had their way with me. It's like if I MISS a shot, that game is OVER!!! I remember getting into a MID-LEVEL tournament one time where I got all of THREE shots in the entire match (lost 5-0). I have since quit donating to these tournaments. It didn't take me long to see that the semi-pro/shortstop/A players were just "feeding" on me. Sure those type of players want my entry fees to be as much as theirs, it's more $$$ in their pockets. Geez, no wonder pool is having problems filling out tournament rosters. Poor saps like me haven't got a chance to even get into a money round.

Maniac

 

[TimKrazyMon]

Three things:

1. Life is not fair.

2. Neither is pool.

3. "A" players didn't get to be "A" players by asking for a bigger spot. They reached that level by paying their dues and getting their asses kicked for YEARS before getting good enough to hang with the good players.

A couple more things:

1. Times (& attitudes) change.

2. B & C players are still paying their dues, they just want a chance now.


Got news for ya, if you want tourneys with a decent payout, this is how it's gonna be.

 

[justadub]

Three things:

3. "A" players didn't get to be "A" players by asking for a bigger spot. They reached that level by paying their dues and getting their asses kicked for YEARS before getting good enough to hang with the good players.

Let's re-visit that again. As Maniac pointed out earlier, anytime there is a match between these "A" players, what's got to happen BEFORE they play for the $$$?

Yep, you got it. They have to determine "the spot".

So is that only permissable amoungst "A" players that have paid their dues, or can anyone negotiate a spot? That's what this thread is all about.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Have the entry fees the same. Everyone mostly has the same expences going to the tourny unless they live right there. Many of the b, c and d players are usually local.

Many of these player even with the handicap are still an underdog. But with a couple of good rolls can still beat anyone. But the little reduction in the entry fee makes no real difference on whether they play. Whats the difference, $40 or $30. it's like so what.

Now the b c and d players that think they can win it should pay an extra 10 15 or 20 to get the spot. Play even or pay a little extra to get the spot.

The ones that don't take the spot with the extra money and play even get a free rebuy if they lose their first match. It's like triple elimination for them.

This way the ones that just want to play some competition can play more without more cost and the ones that think they can win get the spot and will feel like they have a better chance and they will.

Draw up a 64 man chart with 40 players and just put them back in the bye spots in the first round.

Now there is more good news for the place that's holding the tournament. There will be a full house for alot longer. They will eat more, drink and be merry. Help pay for any added money.

Bottom line is really nobody goes to a tournament to lose. They go there to win. Even when I didn't know how to play well I went after the big dogs thinking I could win. Sometimes I would win. Then eventually I started winning alot.

It gave me the drive to want to get better.

It made me want to practice. I went to the poolhall and practiced. This is one of the things that makes this whole pool world work a little better. Practice to play better and support the places that have these great tournys.

Just handing out big spots teaches many players to do nothing but show up. How can they win if they don't work at the game a little.



Just a couple of new ways I don't think anyone has ever considered.

Might work and might not. Who knows until someone tries it.



Have a great day geno..........

Geno,

This is actually a really good idea. Not so sure about the triple elimination thing. That *might* work, but I really like the idea of "buying" the spot. So say everyone pays $40, but the lower players get a spot, *or* they could say "hey Grady, up your ass with the spot", in which case they pay $25 or something? Is that the idea? I think that is pretty cool. That could really work. Assuming the spot is reasonable. An A player playing a C player 7-5, for example, should never lose. Maybe if they are WAY off their game...but then they would lose to another A player anyway. We ahd a weekly tourney where everyone paid the same. Handicaps were either 4 or 5. One week not too many showed up, so we all agreed the 4's would go to 5 and the 5's would go to 9. So here we have "A" players playing C players 9-5. None of the C players made it through the first round.

Anyway, I think your idea has a lot of merit.

KMRUNOUT

 

[JoeW]

A few bucks one way or the other is not of interest to me.

However, I remember how pleased I was when I got a bye in the early part of a
tournament. It seemed like it gave me a leg up and put me that much closer to the top of the field.

Seeding the handicapped tournament would be the better way to go. “C” players always get one bye. This might take some adjustments in the tournament ladder but it is doable. The “B” players could be guaranteed that they did not have to play an “A” player in the first match.

“A” players have to play each other early in the tournament. In the losers bracket they have to play each other too until we whittle it down to one or two "A" players.

It seems like I would have a “better” chance if I were on my game and that would make me want to play in the tournament.

Handicapping makes me feel like the field has been leveled a little. Adjustments that allowed me to stay in the tournament a little longer would be an inducement.

I don't mind donating to the Pro caliber player in a tournament. It is good to have him there, plus there is the implied challenge. But I do want to stay in longer if possible.

 

[JoeW]

I like the idea of being able to buy back into a Texas Holdem Tournament.

Seems like there should be some way to do that in a pool tournament.

It would put more money in the pot and give me another chance.

 

[The Renfro]

Basically the 2 forms of tournaments that work today are either the handicapped or the buyback.

A player with no shot to win has to have incentive to play. Giving said player lower entries and games on the wire fits this bill. As long as the handicaps are considered adequately fair I think they are a tool for getting larger fields...

Basically some players don't have any incentive or drive to improve. I know many have jobs and can't spend countless hours playing but lessons, DVDs, and Books are actually available today.

I have to lay much of this lack of desire on the APA. In a league where you are punished for going up by having to possibly be jettisoned by your team for numbers sake many of the regular participants in our "SPORT" are content to remain at their current levels.

I heard several people at the APA event in Chesapeake this week outside in the smoking area talking about they fact they must have all been getting worse instead of improving... They all wanted to go down so that they had a better chance to win or they thought they shouldn't have been raised to whatever current handicap they were at...

It's a seriously warped competitive desire when you want to beat your opponents with your handicap instead of your game.

I think maybe it makes them all feel like hustlers and are getting one over on the league operator and other teams when in reality they are cheating... Cheating themselves out of testing their limits, growing and actually learning to play.

I see so many of these players that I understand why most real players look down their nose when you mention the APA.....

 

[justadub]

I see so many of these players that I understand why most real players look down their nose when you mention the APA.....

As opposed to when they should actually be looking down their noses at the character of those who would cheat to win. Period. If those are the kind of folks you want to play pool with, be my guest.

It's bullspit.

And not everyone who plays APA feels that way. Blame something else.

 

[inside_english]

Not trying to start a flame war of any kind...but this
was recently brought up by more then a few players at a local weekend tournament
with all the new tours popping up and some old ones adjusting
how does everyone feel about lower"c or d"players paying less money to enter but then also getting games on the wire?
This by defintion(poolhall definition)is a double handicap
it applies to a b c or d players but obviously the c/d get the best of it

i would love to hear everyones opinion-your rating doesnt matter but you could state it if it aids in your opinion

I personally do not like handicapped tournaments for a variety of reasons. If weaker (C or D players) want to have a "chance" to win they can play league pool.

Any system that gives players rated at 3 or below the opportunity to walk away with a trophy or a trip to Las Vegas is certainly heavily catered to their playing levels, IMO.

For those who live in areas where joining a league is not an option, learn to play better so you can compete in evenly matched tournaments.

Sounds harsh, I know...but the bickering, whining, negotiating, and constant adjustments by TDs and room-owners alike to accommodate everyone in a handicapped system is NOT worth it...unless you're really hurting for business and want to help every one that sets foot in your room.

I have played in handicapped tournaments where I have gotten and given weight, have paid more or less of an entry fee, and I even dipped my big toe in the APA for three sessions, so I know. I recently played in a $13-entry fee 9-Ball tournament at one of the local rooms where I had to go to 7 games before my opponent went to 2 games, and they STILL whined...in a THIRTEEN DOLLAR tournament!

Either way, do what's best for your room or your clientele, but I want nothing to do with it (handicapped tournaments).

 

[justadub]

I personally do not like handicapped tournaments for a variety of reasons. If weaker (C or D players) want to have a "chance" to win they can play league pool.

Any system that allows players rated at 3 or below to walk away with a trophy or a trip to Las Vegas is handicapped enough, IMO.

I have to say it again, why do all the "A" players have to have a spot determined before they will play each other for the $$$? Shouldn't matter, right?

Oh yeah... they've already paid their dues. Lesser players don't have that right. Got it!

 

[12310bch]

>I personally do not like handicapped tournaments for a variety of reasons. If weaker (C or D players) want to have a "chance" to win they can play league pool.

>For those who live in areas where joining a league is not an option, learn to play better

>Sounds harsh, I know...but the bickering, whining, negotiating, and constant adjustments is NOT worth it.

> I recently played in a $13-entry fee 9-Ball tournament at one of the local rooms where I had to go to 7 games before my opponent went to 2 games, and they STILL whined...in a THIRTEEN DOLLAR tournament!

>but I want nothing to do with it (handicapped tournaments).

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1) I think the less skilled players want to be in a competitive matchup, not necessarily one in which they truly believe they can win.

2) " let them eat cake."

3) I see. The bickering, whining, negotiating, and constant adjustments
don't happen when you monster players are gambling , huh? Give me a break.

4) You gave up 5 games on the wire in a race to 7 and still won? Let the newbie whine all he wants , you nit. You got the cash.

5) Believe me, the players want nothing to do with arrogant effers like
you in the handicapped tourneys, so you won't be missed. ^l^^

 

[cleary]

Why should a "C" player win ? If you play that bad, you should practice, not beg for a spot !

If you go fishing with no bait, you won't catch much.

 

[inside_english]

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1) I think the less skilled players want to be in a competitive matchup, not necessarily one in which they truly believe they can win.

2) " let them eat cake."

3) I see. The bickering, whining, negotiating, and constant adjustments
don't happen when you monster players are gambling , huh? Give me a break.

4) You gave up 5 games on the wire in a race to 7 and still won? Let the newbie whine all he wants , you nit. You got the cash.

5) Believe me, the players want nothing to do with arrogant effers like
you in the handicapped tourneys, so you won't be missed. ^l^^

I'm a nit?
So you met me when?

And thanks for calling me a monster player, I really appreciate the pick-me-up...LOL