Help with cue tip contact point.

dquarasr

Registered
Matt, you know I appreciate what you did for me a few months back. I'm the one who innocently started this thread. But, I just have to say it here, PLEASE STOP! JUST STOP! You're trying so hard to be right, in the face of what I consider being so wrong, that, as I have seen in other posts where you've gotten into "pedantic" arguments, it is usually you who perpetrates outrageous comments others refute, then you start taking these rebuttals as personal attacks and respond accordingly. Please, be more introspective and open to criticism, and simply stop being so g-damned argumentative!!!

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
That's actually the importance of tip curvature - and why it's usually nickel/dime.

Tips are shaped like nickels and dimes because that size curvature can include 60 degrees of arc within the width of a typical cue tip. 60 degrees is what's needed to reach the miscue limit without going "past the edge" of the tip (30 degrees to each side).

A tip with a ball's curvature would include less than half that much arc within the tip's width, so it would already be hitting "past its edge" halfway to the miscue limit. That's what's not "very close" about them.

pj
chgo
An excellent, clear response. Thank you.

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Backing up a bit.....this is clearly incorrect. A nickel is about 22 mm diameter, a ball is about 57 mm. The shapes are clearly not even close, unless i'm missing something.

PJ illustrated a cue with a nickel shape on top of it, like if you used that radius to shape your tip.

If you used the radius of the 'cue ball equator' to shape your tip, it would be too flat to be effective, and certainly doesn't lead to 'maximizing control and feel'

it may just be language, but the use of 'very close' above, translates to 'not very close at all'
I've never superimposed a tip inside a ball arc, only looked from the outside prior to the first illustration shown. I shape to a nickel. I stand corrected.

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Matt, you know I appreciate what you did for me a few months back. I'm the one who innocently started this thread. But, I just have to say it here, PLEASE STOP! JUST STOP! You're trying so hard to be right, in the face of what I consider being so wrong, that, as I have seen in other posts where you've gotten into "pedantic" arguments, it is usually you who perpetrates outrageous comments others refute, then you start taking these rebuttals as personal attacks and respond accordingly. Please, be more introspective and open to criticism, and simply stop being so g-damned argumentative!!!
Although having you send me this publicly rather than in a private message makes me feel like arguing, ahem, I will take to heart what you are sharing.

Thank you.

dquarasr

Registered
Although having you send me this publicly rather than in a private message makes me feel like arguing, ahem, I will take to heart what you are sharing.

Thank you.
You are correct. In hindsight this should have been sent to you privately. Apologies.

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Because I can - there’s no downside to ensuring that my hard tips don’t glaze over.

I do, and I am.

It’s like chalking every shot - you might not need it that often, it’s just how you remember to do it.

pj
chgo
How often did you miscue before tapping/poking the tip? Is it something you paid attention to or are you just poking the tip because it seems like a good thing to do? Why use a hard tip if it requires constant poking? My medium layered tips don't mushroom and seem to last a long time.

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
How often did you miscue before tapping/poking the tip? Is it something you paid attention to or are you just poking the tip because it seems like a good thing to do?
It's a no-cost preventative measure. I think my (very few) miscues are mainly stroke errors, so something's working.
Why use a hard tip if it requires constant poking? My medium layered tips don't mushroom and seem to last a long time.
I like hard tips.

Is there some reason you think I shouldn't be picking them?

pj
chgo

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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's a no-cost preventative measure. I think my (very few) miscues are mainly stroke errors, so something's working.

I like hard tips.

Is there some reason you think I shouldn't be picking them?

pj
chgo
I just don't understand why you would do something that is not necessary. Maybe hard tips miscue more but I don't really know and you haven't responded much to that. Like you tell the CTE guys, "if it makes you feel better then good for you" but it may be something that has no practical value other than that. Of course, I could be wrong. Is it possible that these items are being sold simply because they seem like a good idea?

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I just don't understand why you would do something that is not necessary.
Obviously I do it because I believe it helps.
Like you tell the CTE guys, "if it makes you feel better..."
If it makes you feel better not to pick...

Do you think chalking before each shot is a good idea? Do you believe it's actually needed before each shot - or do you recommend only chalking after each miscue?

pj
chgo

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
You are correct. In hindsight this should have been sent to you privately. Apologies.
Thank you--it's a friend who cares enough to be bold and direct. You're a good friend.

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Obviously I do it because I believe it helps.

If it makes you feel better not to pick...

Do you think chalking before each shot is a good idea? Do you believe it's actually needed before each shot - or do you recommend only chalking after each miscue?

pj
chgo
I'm really not trying to pick a fight. You are always evidence based in what you do re pool and you question everything, it seems, which is often a good thing. Someone says a nickel radius is the same as the cue ball and you show that to be false, for example. I figured you had a reason for picking the tip and I surmised that you had a hard tip and maybe hard tips need scuffing while softer ones don't, at least in my experience.

Let's say I get out my Rempe cue ball and start hitting shots at the miscue limit. If I find that I am miscueing when I shouldn't be then maybe my tip is too slick and not holding enough chalk. Then I'd use a tip tapper or pick and see if there was an improvement. Or, maybe I'm doing something funny with my stroke. In any case, there will be a reason for whether I scuff the tip or not. In my case I've never noticed a miscue when I shouldn't be miscuing. So when you say above that it makes me feel better not to pick that is wrong. I don't pick because there is no reason to. I also don't have my cue refinished every year nor do I clean the underside of the slate.

To answer your question, I usually chalk after every shot because if I don't I definitely will miscue and doing it every time makes it automatic. That is different from picking the tip each playing session because I don't think we've established that you have ever miscued because of a slick tip. That's all I'm really saying. You of all people are not the kind of guy who does something just because.

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I'm really not trying to pick a fight.
Me neither - appreciate the thoughts.
I usually chalk after every shot because if I don't I definitely will miscue and doing it every time makes it automatic. That is different from picking the tip each playing session
I think the only difference is the likelihood of miscuing if I don't do it that often. I don't need "definitely will" to consider it a good practice, especially since (did I say this already?) there's no cost. Players rough their tips up by other means, just less often - I like making it a regular routine so I can forget about it (again, since there's no downside).

pj
chgo

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Me neither - appreciate the thoughts.

I think the only difference is the likelihood of miscuing if I don't do it that often. I don't need "definitely will" to consider it a good practice, especially since (did I say this already?) there's no cost. Players rough their tips up by other means, just less often - I like making it a regular routine so I can forget about it (again, since there's no downside).

pj
chgo
Well, to be precise there is a cost in buying the tool and there is time/thought to do it. Why bother if it doesn't really do anything?

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Well, to be precise there is a cost in buying the tool and there is time/thought to do it.
Yeah, it cost me like \$10 bucks 25 years ago, it takes an entire 10 seconds a day, and since I do it every time I never have to think about it. Don't know how I put up with it.
Why bother if it doesn't really do anything?
Who says it doesn't? I wouldn't bother if I didn't think it did.

Does roughing a tip by other means "do anything", or should everybody quit doing it? Or do you just have something against phonograph needles?

pj
chgo

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
As for tip-tapping, I notice that top snooker players seem never to do it while some top carom players frequently do it -- perhaps a few times per match.

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, it cost me like \$10 bucks 25 years ago, it takes an entire 10 seconds a day, and since I do it every time I never have to think about it. Don't know how I put up with it.

Who says it doesn't? I wouldn't bother if I didn't think it did.

Does roughing a tip by other means "do anything", or should everybody quit doing it? Or do you just have something against phonograph needles?

pj
chgo
lol. We're back to my original point. Does it really do anything? If your answer is "I don't know but I do it anyway because maybe it helps" then I can live with that. I can give you one data point, though. I stopped messing with the tip 20 years ago and it didn't make one bit of difference re miscues.

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It roughs the surface by creating pockets and allows chalk to embed.
It also raises the edges of the pockets a little when pulled out, "roughing" the surface without any loss of material. Perfect tool for the job, IMO.

since we're on the subject, I'm wondering- is this a good thing? chalk embedded in the tip?
I honestly don't know..I could kinda see it going either way

pj <- and it recycles old phonograph needles
as a phono phan, love this ^_^

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
is this a good thing? chalk embedded in the tip?
I don't know - but there are chalk-impregnated tips sold with that as a feature.

I use it just for the little bit of roughing it does. And like Dan says, I really don't know how necessary it is - but it's at least harmless and easy, and plenty of (most?) other players swear by roughing their tips up (which I don't like to do if it removes leather), so...

pj
chgo

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know - but there are chalk-impregnated tips sold with that as a feature.

I use it just for the little bit of roughing it does. And like Dan says, I really don't know how necessary it is - but it's at least harmless and easy, and plenty of (most?) other players swear by roughing their tips up (which I don't like to do if it removes leather), so...

pj
chgo
thanks pat
built-in chalk is an interesting idea
for what it's worth, I don't play without roughing up my tip first
it definitely acts as a security blanket, but I think with good reason
unlike you straight-shooters, I do miscue sometimes
but I notice that when I do with a roughed tip,
it "feels" more like my fault, and less the tip's
before I got the tool, a miscue would make a sharper sound
and the contact patch would be more evident, bigger- ?
chalk isn't abrasive enough to my liking re: rough tip
as is ever tho, diff'rent strokes

The_JV

Local_Pro
since we're on the subject, I'm wondering- is this a good thing? chalk embedded in the tip?
I honestly don't know..I could kinda see it going either way
Well I have nothing to back up my assumptions, but if I were to hazard a guess I'd venture a yes, a good thing.

The whole point is to get the chalk to stay on the tip. If a pick means I can get tiny little bits of chalk filling tiny little holes on the tip surface, I can't think of a down side.

I'm sure I'm over stating the whole "embed the chalk" concept. Just figured the pick makes holes, and I push the chalk into the them, so it must fill them to some degree...lol