How fast do you break?

[jhanso18]

I have about 2.5 years under my belt playing. I did have an awsome advantage of learning how to play pool in a place that SVB and Adam behnke could be seen alot. I picked there brains ALOT to get my break, which i had to play with to get it to work for me.

When I have my break working for me good, i am a very consistant 22.7mph. I can consistantly hit higher speeds with less control, but seldom try. I have found that "choking up" on the cue (grabbing at the front of the wrap, or even higher since my breaker has no rap, and a fairly short bridge yeild the best results. NUMBER ONE THING IS HITTING HEADBALL SQUARE!!!

If I am struggling to get a good break, I will take speed out. If I am still struggling I will start moving the cue ball back to the middle of the table. I do this until my control starts to come back. If I am on the same table for a while I will try some different stuff and if I find one that works, I use it until it stops working.

Biggest thing for lesser players like myself to understand is that the break is just another shot. It also happens to be THE SHOT YOU SEE MOST. So practice practice practice.

I believe shane told me before TAR 1 he practiced his break every day for like 2 hours on a break rig, for like 2 months leading up to the match. I wonder how he got so good....

hope this info is helpful,

Justin

 

[BasementDweller]

An oldie but a goodie:

Colin Colenso's primer on power-breaking:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U

The reason for the starting out low, and then "standing up" during the delivery of the cue, has to do with two main concepts in power-breaking. One is the "long-lever" concept. See if you can guess the other one.

-Sean

I believe there's a couple reasons. First though, by standing up you get the grip arm straighter and longer - a longer lever can build more speed. Additionally, by standing up you are creating momentum and rhythm. And then on follow through you are "uncoiling", including a rotation of the hips and torso.

Think of a golf swing. Why don't we just start our golf swing at the top - why even have a back swing?

I don't like tests. So I think I'm going to peak over at KoolKat's test and go with his response.

I understand the longer lever concept. I guess I just don't get why you can't utilize the longer level from the more upright position. Probably something I just have to try a few times on the table to figure out. The funny thing is I'm fairly certain when I'm breaking well I sort of raise up out of my stance too. I'm just not sure why. I'm not so certain about the "uncoiling" answer, but since I didn't have anything down on my test sheet I guess I will go with that.

I will say that I think the golfing analogy is flawed since the golfer doesn't move his head during the swing - no matter how hard he hits the ball. I don't think anybody (I know I don't) thinks you shouldn't have a backstroke prior to the break.

 

[sfleinen]

I don't like tests. So I think I'm going to peak over at KoolKat's test and go with his response.

I understand the longer lever concept. I guess I just don't get why you can't utilize the longer level from the more upright position. Probably something I just have to try a few times on the table to figure out. The funny thing is I'm fairly certain when I'm breaking well I sort of raise up out of my stance too. I'm just not sure why. I'm not so certain about the "uncoiling" answer, but since I didn't have anything down on my test sheet I guess I will go with that.

I will say that I think the golfing analogy is flawed since the golfer doesn't move his head during the swing - no matter how hard he hits the ball. I don't think anybody (I know I don't) thinks you shouldn't have a backstroke prior to the break.

Chris:

Actually, although you "don't like tests," you actually hinted at the correct answer, if you combine that with viewing Colin Colenso's video.

The answer is eccentric contraction. By priming your muscles in the "low" stance, and then unleashing them as you start to stand up, it's not so much an issue of "uncoiling" the muscle, as it is altering the angle at which the muscles contract, giving them more of an ability to "snap" the cue into maximum forward motion. I'm not even going to attempt to explain it more than that, because I'd be doing Colin an injustice by trying to spoon-feed something that he already does a great job at explaining.

Admittedly, the video quality is low, because it was done on his cell phone.

-Sean

 

[Black-Balled]

...There is a fifteen-year old that recently started playing at the pool hall. Provided his mixture is right...

Whaat thaa faaak?

 

[cuenut]

I also attribute the difference between those who break slow and those who break fast to the last second acceleration through the cueball of a well-timed result snapping of the wrist. I think it is naturally learned (in my case particularly, as I seem to have always had a really fast break and never knew why) in most cases, no different than someone who has a natural golf swing. That adds the wrist snapping speed to the forward arm/body speed of the followthrough. Over the last 20 years or so, I also think it has contributed to the arthristis in my hand and wrist.

I just wish I could run out consistently!

 

[Okie]

I will say that I think the golfing analogy is flawed since the golfer doesn't move his head during the swing - no matter how hard he hits the ball. I don't think anybody (I know I don't) thinks you shouldn't have a backstroke prior to the break.

The golf analogy is not as flawed as you might think. In the golf, we are taught to utilize a lead and lag motion. We lead with our body and the hands lag behind it. As you uncoil, the hands eventually pass your center and the hands naturally snap through impact. Soft hands, wrists, and forearms are essential to increasing the speed of this snap. You are correct that in golf the head is best kept still. This is due to the circular nature of the golf swing. As I am more student than teacher in pool I will leave any analysis of the breaking stroke to those who have studied it longer than I.

My breaking speed averages around 23.5. I concentrate on a slow backstroke and ultra soft hands, wrists, and forearms. I equate the break to hitting a driver. Accuracy is a must and the highest speed possible is desired....unless of course you happen to be on a table in which a slower speed is more effective for pocketing balls.

 

[kollegedave]

Whaat thaa faaak?

All I meant to say is that this kid is fifteen...sometimes the choices he makes in shot selection, and other mental aspects of the game, leave a bit to be desired. If his his "mental" mixture is right he might be able to run a rack.

The larger point is that he is an unimposing person and pool player, but he can hit the balls HARD.

kollegedave

 

[scottjen26]

I'm at 24.5 - 25.5 pretty consistently with good cueball control. I can either squat it pretty well in the center or drive it over to the side rail and back out, sort of depends on how I'm aiming and aligning that day, how much bounce I'm getting into the rack, etc. I'm sure the speed comes more easily for me from playing other sports, such as golf and tennis, where you learn to coordinate body and hand/wrist motion to get maximum speed from coil, lag, etc.

I don't always break at my normal speed, depending on the table I will move closer to the middle of the table instead of breaking off the rail, use a cut break, etc.

Interestingly, any attempts I've made to break faster have not been fruitful at all, regardless of accuracy. Seems I have too much OCD to just break with wild abandon to just see how fast I can go. I'm sure with some effort I could increase somewhat, just not a priority for me at this point. When I see some of those guys like Nevel, Bryant, etc. it's very impressive!
Scott

 

[Bob 14:1]

Never having measured it, I can still definitively say that I break half fast... :smash:

 

[JoeyA]

This is a point that needs to be emphasized. Loose=fast. Tight=slow. The harder you "try" (tensing the wrong muscles), the slower you go.


It's the timing that is important. SVB starts his body transition far in advance of releasing his hand/cue into the CB. Think of it this way: your big body (relatively to your cue) will stay on a particular line once moving along it. Naturally, your arm will follow that line once its set. Visualize your body as a train charging down the tracks. Those that release their body & cue at the same time (or the cue to early) will suffer from lack of precision (repeatability).

Does Colin's break video concerning "Eccentric Contraction" contradict your Loose-Fast emphasis?

Also, he recommends a "tightening" of the wrist, just before impact.

One of the things I hope to do is to chronicle any improvement in speed.

I'm not sure you can train fast-twitch muscles. I thought FT muscles are inate but I NOW see that E-how says you can train your FT muscles that you were born with. I am sure you can develop better technique so it's off to another chapter. :smile:

 

[JoeyA]

All I meant to say is that this kid is fifteen...sometimes the choices he makes in shot selection, and other mental aspects of the game, leave a bit to be desired. If his his "mental" mixture is right he might be able to run a rack.

The larger point is that he is an unimposing person and pool player, but he can hit the balls HARD.

kollegedave

That's what I am talking about. Looks can be deceiving.

A roly-polly, half-wit boy at the pool room that looked slower than a three-toed sloth took my dough in a challenge match. :thud:

 

[TATE]

My break has been the poorest area of my game. I've been working on it lately and learned a few things.

You can have a huge break, but if you can't hit the center of the cue ball, it won't matter. If you can't cleanly hit the head object ball, without side spin, it won't matter either. You can clock 22 mph but your effective break might be 14 or 15 because it's off center.

I'm now actually breaking pretty effectively in 10 ball with an 18 - 19 mph break. The trick is to get the cue ball to impact dead straight on the one and make the second row balls run into the side pockets. If they are coming up below the sides, speed up the break a little. If they are coming up above the sides, slow it down.

The key to getting more usable power is to increase accuracy. I find standing up taller, swinging "under" myself (think softball pitcher motion), and taking a slow backstroke help. The important thing is to be smooth and hit the cueball dead center.

No amount of additional power is worth sacrificing accuracy.

 

[cyork2]

breaking faster

The short link earlier in this thread to a you tube video is a must watch (long lever, loose wrist etc - all techniques and worth learning). Got me from 17ish to 21.5 consistently with a leather tip (when BCA banned phenolic tips I saw a need and worked on this).

If you break below 20mph then it is probably worthwhile to work on it. An average bar player with no special emphasis on breaking hits 17mph give or take. PROs are typically at 21 to 24 intentionally - most of them can break harder but chose not to in tournaments.

One point I don't remember being in that video that helped me - move your center of gravity back before you break to be ready to move forward on the break. On a normal shot your feet are positioned to be "stable" which means your center of gravity is roughly in the middle of your body. Start in that position but rock your hips back and stop - you should clearly feel how your center of gravity has moved back making you off balance (having a narrower stance makes this easier to feel). Now rock forward and feel the sensation of moving your center of gravity forward of center (do a hip bump of the table without taking a foot off the ground). Now time that action to match your stroke (that's the hard part).

Why pro's lift up on the stroke.. having put a lot of focused effort on this I have a few guesses. #1 - the pool table limits your follow through and moving up on the follow through provides more room to explode through the ball (at least for your upper body). #2 - If you move down or level it is really easy to hit your hand on the rail and break a finger trying to hit the ball hard. I haven't broken a finger but I've come close and it doesn't take long to realize lifting up helps you avoid it. #3 - moving down even a bit will cause your stick to scrape on the table leaving a nasty black mark on your cue so if you care about your stick (or your table) then you move up to avoid that.

Have fun and good luck,
Craig

 

[spindoctor9]

That part makes sense but I wasn't really talking about that. After rereading my post I see it wasn't very clear. What I was wondering about is their actual body positions. They all seem to rise up out of their stance on their final backstroke and continue rising until they strike the ball. Why not just have a more upright stance to begin with???

Momentum. Also, it makes your arm a longer lever and thus faster at the cue. I stand up/forward as well on the break.

As for speed I can break around 24 consistently and park the cue ball 50% of the time. I break at 28-31 when I really hit em. My break was probably 19-23 before I started lifting weights a few years ago. The stronger you are, the more power and thus speed you can generate with your fast twitch fibers. So get off the table and hit the gym for a bigger break lol

 

[jay helfert]

I once got a speeding ticket on my break shot! I was going 50 in a 25 mph zone :wink:.

David Howard likened the break shot to a karate punch, moving his entire body into the shot, with an emphasis on his lower torso and legs. His break was monstrous! Billy Johnson/Wade Crane mastered the break as well with a similar technique, saying that he broke from his center. George Breedlove had perhaps the most powerful break of all and it looked like super fast arm speed and a good strong shoulder turn. Tony Ellin crushed the balls much like Charley Bryant today using sheer mass to drive through the cue ball.

Some techniques that may work for you include: Standing more erect, choking up on the cue, a more sideways stance and a shorter cue. This is the one shot in pool where you do not have to stay still. In fact your whole body should be moving on this shot.

 

[pt109]

I once got a speeding ticket on my break shot! I was going 50 in a 25 mph zone :wink:.

David Howard likened the break shot to a karate punch, moving his entire body into the shot, with an emphasis on his lower torso and legs. His break was monstrous! Billy Johnson/Wade Crane mastered the break as well with a similar technique, saying that he broke from his center. George Breedlove had perhaps the most powerful break of all and it looked like super fast arm speed and a good strong shoulder turn. Tony Ellin crushed the balls much like Charley Bryant today using sheer mass to drive through the cue ball.

Some techniques that may work for you include: Standing more erect, choking up on the cue, a more sideways stance and a shorter cue. This is the one shot in pool where you do not have to stay still. In fact your whole body should be moving on this shot.

Reading this post made me realize something, Jay.
Billy Johnson is still my favorite breaker.
He made the break look like a normal shot....
...until you heard the sound

 

[Autist]

Up to 25 I can get SOME kind of cue ball control, like in here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlOUS2SL4sQ

I think that was 24 or 25.

With no control I could get close to 29.

 

[kollegedave]

Break Update

So after reading this thread, I had to make my way to the pool hall for the sake of testing out some ideas.

Based on what Jay Helfert posted, I drastically moved my back hand up on my break cue. That is to say, I moved my back hand from the center of the wrap to touching the intersection of the wrap and forearm (Predator Break Cue 1).

My break increased 1mph immediately. I had as much control as I did before...if not more. With no body movement, I consistently broke at 20.5 mph, and I was able to park the cue ball each time.

I am going to try an introduce some movement and see what happens.

kollegedave

 

[DA\/E]

I remember a good 10 years ago at the VNEA getting clocked at one of the speed break comp booths at a tad over 32 mph. This was just after an 18 hour flight, and feeling somewhat hungover. I knew I could hit em harder, but I was just too tired.

Was on top of the leader board for a good half a day, won a t-shirt. Later in the day a few folks hit the 33 and 34 mph break.

Funny thing was, they used to rack up just 3 balls for you to hit, and I remember I sunk all three twice, and sunk 2 out of three on my other attempt.

A few people passing buy proclaimed not to play this guy any 3 ball.

Not sure how the timer they were using back then compares to the smart phone apps today.

I remember a team mate coming up after he had had a go, and telling me he was breaking at 202 miles per hour. It took a long time to convince him he had actually been clocked at 20.2 miles per hour .... Lol... !!

 

[JoeyA]

So after reading this thread, I had to make my way to the pool hall for the sake of testing out some ideas.

Based on what Jay Helfert posted, I drastically moved my back hand up on my break cue. That is to say, I moved my back hand from the center of the wrap to touching the intersection of the wrap and forearm (Predator Break Cue 1).

My break increased 1mph immediately. I had as much control as I did before...if not more. With no body movement, I consistently broke at 20.5 mph, and I was able to park the cue ball each time.

I am going to try an introduce some movement and see what happens.

kollegedave

This thread has been a lot of fun and very interesting as there are many suggestions that can be used by anyone to improve their break speed and break quality.

No one has really weighed in on the cut break. I'm kind of curious how much speed is reduced for the cut break.

As for me, DocHutch has been MIA for the last couple of days (so the Iphone app is not available) but I have been breaking a little differently the last couple of days trying out different techniques.

I'm not sure if I have the eccentric contraction thing worked out but I'm trying that, moving stroking hand forward, rising up on my final break stroke, trying to move forward on my final break stroke. People now cower when I come to the table as my cue ball takes on the properties of a North Korean rocket launch.

I'll work on control a bit more and see if that helps. In the meantime, I there is a certain kind of perverted satisfaction that I finally have some people scared of my 9 ball game.