How Good Was Minnesota Fats?

alpine9430 said:
WOW - I have been following the thread with high interest.
Just had to say thanks for taking the time to scan and post the image of the business card.
Things like this are hard to forget,
Myron
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NO problem at all.

Not hard to forget...'impossible' is a better term.


Rick S.
 
Rick S. said:
Just scanned it for you. I carried it in my wallet for years, and it's become quite tattered. Across the top it DID say...'I have been hustled by" Then at the bottom it said "The Legendary Minnesota Fats" and then his signature.

It's something I'll never forget.


He's buried in Goodletsville. (suburb of Nashville) Same town my son still lives in. Right down the road from Jimmy Reid. I have read everything I could get my hands on about him.

Just bought and read "Minnesota Fats......The Bank Shot, and other great robberies". Just re-released after about 30 yrs, or so. Written by R.A. Dyer. It's quite a book, with many TERIFFIC stories in it.




Rick S.
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Rick, did you ever go visit where Fats was buried? If so is Rack em Up St. Peter on it?
 
Island Drive said:
Rick, did you ever go visit where Fats was buried? If so is Rack em Up St. Peter on it?
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Actually, I haven't.

I will go by there on my next trip, no later than March. I'll be sure to bring a camera with this time!

I have read several stories about the epitaph saying that...I'm sure it does, but haven't actually seen it personally..YET, but I will.


Rick
 
Surprised nobody had posted this: On page 225 in Winning One Pocket is the story about Mosconi beating Fats at one pocket. In a nutshell, they had played straight pool often but Willie had refused to play one pocket, saying he had never learned the game. Willie finally agreed to play one pocket with Fats for $200 a game if they played in Philadelphia. Fats agreed and his backer gave him $2000 to play with. Fats called his backer in New York wanting more money because it was a good game for him. When his backer asked what happened to the $2000, Fats told him that Willie didn’t understand the sophisticated and finesse moves of one pocket and he {Fats} was beating Mosconi to the first shot often. Willie, not knowing any better just kept running 8 and out.
Jay mentioned Fats’ session with Richie Florence, which is in John Grissim’s book Hustlers and Heroes, Legends and Lies, and the Search for Higher Truth on the Green Felt. Fats beat Richie, who was one of the top players in the country at that time, out of $25,000. Ray Martin told me in 1978 or ’79 that he was there and saw the whole thing. According to the book, Fats was a master of human nature and his own bankroll. After the above story, ya gotta wonder about that.
When I went to post this the first time, I was no longer logged in and I don’t type all that slow. Wonder what happened??
 
Pushout said:
When his backer asked what happened to the $2000, Fats told him that Willie didn’t understand the sophisticated and finesse moves of one pocket and he {Fats} was beating Mosconi to the first shot often. Willie, not knowing any better just kept running 8 and out.
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Push-man,
Some of the degenerate pool players who hung out with Willie during his KC days said that if you would give him 3 tries he would run all 15 balls into one pocket on the big 5 x 10 tables - they claim to have made a fair sum wagering on Willie with this proposition. Similar to internet tales, it is probably best to take everything they said with a grain of salt; but there is NO doubt that he was an offensive machine par excellence.
 
Interesting article that I found in the archives

The Last Johnston City Tournament:
1972, Round-Robin, 9 Ball and 1 Pocket only.
Three weeks, you play everybody.

Tournament eve; Minnesota Fats ( Rudolph Wanderone ) is speaking live on a midwest tv and radio broadcast, trying to help Paulie Jansco promote the tournament. Here is one of the things he said, and I quote " Jimmy Reid is here from LA, and wants to play-any man from any land, for any amount he can count, anything he can bring, any game he can name."

Three weeks later-finals night, there are 4 players left in the 9 ball and 4 players left in the 1 pocket, yours truly is top of the board in both divisions, I'm ahead of Norman Hitchcock 1 game to love in the 1 pocket semi-finals and we had just begun the 2nd. game----when all of a sudden a voice comes over the microphone;

This is the FBI, everybody stay where you are, we've got all the exits closed, and this tournament is over. They had 33 Subpoenas and 12 indightments for interstate gambling act and income tax evasion. We all had to appear at a special Grand Jury hearing that was scheduled for 9am next morning in St Louis, Mo.. Come to find out, that the tournament eve quote of Fats was grounds enough for the interstate gambling charges, they (FBI) only made one mistake, they served Fats with a subpoena also.

About 1/2 of us had gone in and testified one at a time before the Grand Jury, then Fats showed up and demanded to testify next. When he got through testifying and came out into the corridor--- the whole Grand Jury followed him out and wanted his autograph. They decided not to follow the U.S. District Attorneys advice and immediately dropped the charges against all the poolplayers ( yours truly included ) that had been indicted.

Happy but curious I asked Fatty ( which is what his friends called him ) what had happened. He replied, "I told them that these poolplayers were harmless and to stop wasting the taxpayers' money, that they had 2 people subpoenaed out there, Dirty Low Down Red and Omaha Fats, and that if you gave them a blood test it would come back 90% hotdog & 10% coffee." Fatty was the best talker I've ever known, the DA didn't have a chance. Fatty got us in and Fatty got us out... New York Fats - alias - Minnesota Fats - ( Fatty ) like Ali was "The Greatest"...


Upon returning to LA, I told John Brascia ( John The Dancer ), what had happened - he added a little fiction, wrote the book, screenplay, and 7 years later the movie "THE BALTIMORE BULLET". It came out with James Coburn & Omar Shariff both playing my part. In real life at the end of the movie, Coburn plays Jimmy Fusco's part, wait a minute I'm getting confused, let's see, I was winning the tournament and I was also known as the best money player in the world. Bruce Boxleitner played Coburn's partner the real life Cole Dickson, who in reality was my partner, or was it Larry Lisciotti, there I go getting confused again, well anyway, sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. Gotta go now...

Your confused pool guru, Jimmy Reid

<more stories>
 
ATH said:
Mosconi was a true player, Fats was a hustler.
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But which personality gave more to others? Mosconi was a player life Efren, and effie is a humble giving person with many talents. Fats was so talented in many areas I am sure this irritated Mosconi because he thought with the better game he was a better man, I think not. How many people in life did Mosconi make laugh compared to the fat man or even efren? It takes a special person to make a living in that arena and come out a winner in all areas of your self. I look back and can only think of a few great/good players that were a light in a dark room, Fats is #1 next might be the late Louie Lemke, then Roger Griffis in his day was fun, another one St. Louie Louie but its difficult to think of many more, Wenie Beanie, Cornbread Red somewhat, Grady Benny the Goose...........
 
Here is the correct link for the Johnston City report.

http://www.richsamuels.com/nbcmm/dick_kay/johnston_city_pool.html

--Chili
 
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jimmyg said:
The Last Johnston City Tournament:
1972, Round-Robin, 9 Ball and 1 Pocket only.
Three weeks, you play everybody.

Tournament eve; Minnesota Fats ( Rudolph Wanderone ) is speaking live on a midwest tv and radio broadcast, trying to help Paulie Jansco promote the tournament. Here is one of the things he said, and I quote " Jimmy Reid is here from LA, and wants to play-any man from any land, for any amount he can count, anything he can bring, any game he can name."

Three weeks later-finals night, there are 4 players left in the 9 ball and 4 players left in the 1 pocket, yours truly is top of the board in both divisions, I'm ahead of Norman Hitchcock 1 game to love in the 1 pocket semi-finals and we had just begun the 2nd. game----when all of a sudden a voice comes over the microphone;

This is the FBI, everybody stay where you are, we've got all the exits closed, and this tournament is over. They had 33 Subpoenas and 12 indightments for interstate gambling act and income tax evasion. We all had to appear at a special Grand Jury hearing that was scheduled for 9am next morning in St Louis, Mo.. Come to find out, that the tournament eve quote of Fats was grounds enough for the interstate gambling charges, they (FBI) only made one mistake, they served Fats with a subpoena also.

About 1/2 of us had gone in and testified one at a time before the Grand Jury, then Fats showed up and demanded to testify next. When he got through testifying and came out into the corridor--- the whole Grand Jury followed him out and wanted his autograph. They decided not to follow the U.S. District Attorneys advice and immediately dropped the charges against all the poolplayers ( yours truly included ) that had been indicted.

Happy but curious I asked Fatty ( which is what his friends called him ) what had happened. He replied, "I told them that these poolplayers were harmless and to stop wasting the taxpayers' money, that they had 2 people subpoenaed out there, Dirty Low Down Red and Omaha Fats, and that if you gave them a blood test it would come back 90% hotdog & 10% coffee." Fatty was the best talker I've ever known, the DA didn't have a chance. Fatty got us in and Fatty got us out... New York Fats - alias - Minnesota Fats - ( Fatty ) like Ali was "The Greatest"...


Upon returning to LA, I told John Brascia ( John The Dancer ), what had happened - he added a little fiction, wrote the book, screenplay, and 7 years later the movie "THE BALTIMORE BULLET". It came out with James Coburn & Omar Shariff both playing my part. In real life at the end of the movie, Coburn plays Jimmy Fusco's part, wait a minute I'm getting confused, let's see, I was winning the tournament and I was also known as the best money player in the world. Bruce Boxleitner played Coburn's partner the real life Cole Dickson, who in reality was my partner, or was it Larry Lisciotti, there I go getting confused again, well anyway, sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. Gotta go now...

Your confused pool guru, Jimmy Reid

<more stories>
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Judes going to have a heart attack when he reads this one. That is awesome!!! Coincidently was Fats backing you on the offer?
 
jay helfert said:
How good was Fats?

First of all, his real nickname around New York from the 1920's on was "Triple Smart" Fats. That should give you some indication of how good he was. When it came to matching up, gambling, and taking down the chesse, Fats was at the top of the heap. Now that he is long gone, everyone has a story about how they beat him. Sorry, I don't buy all these stories. I watched Fats rob Richie Florence for two weeks in Johnson City getting 8-7 in One Pocket. He must have won 75 to 80 games total at 300 a game. CORRECT!

Fats best games were One Pocket, Banks and Three Cushions. He played a ball below the champions, but always had money, when they were all brokes. After he became famous in the early 60's, Fats continued to occasionally make a game. And he could still take it down. Fats busted Mosconi once at Mosconi Sr's. poolroom in New Jersey. Willie wanted to play Straights and Fats wanted to play Banks. So they compromised; bank every other ball. Guess who won that mismatch? After that, there was no love lost between these two.

Fats was an amazing human being. He could stop at a gas station in the middle of nowhere, and draw a crowd in 15 minutes. I was in restaurants with him, where we would be waiting for a table, and Fats goes into his spiel. Pretty soon all the diners are up from their tables and crowded around listening to him. He was enormously more famous than any other pool player since Greenleaf. He wasn't just a famous pool player. He was a legitmate celebrity. People recognized him everywhere.

And he couldn't read or write. With barely a third grade education, I would read the menu to him in restaurants or he would just ask for what he wanted. He signed his autographs with a stamp, because for him to write out Minnesotas Fats was difficult and time consuming. And he had a heart of gold, caring for all the strays in his neighborhood in Dowell, Il. But that's another story.

Bottom line, Fats could and would play, and bet high. His weakness was cards, and he got robbed by many card mechanics. He was a card sucker.
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Very good Jay, I only played him a few times at 3 cushion. It was charity on his part. One time he just quit me when I was ahead, never finished the game but it didn't matter. No bet - No Interest on his part. What most people don't realize is that Fats was an very good 3C player and may have been his best game. While living in Carbondale, IL in the mid 70's and early 80's I saw him play the local hustlers many times one a coal miner from Duquoin. Although this coal miner will always be an unknown he was a runout 1 pocket and banks player. On one occasion they hooked up for $200 a game and Fats was taking all side bets. There were around 25-30 people watching. Doc the coal miner was winning most of the games till the side got up then it all changed. Fats hustled the side including me a real gambling green horn @ 19. As was said before his best known games were 1 pocket and banks and he could run a rack or 3 in either.

Yea lots of players were and are better than Fats but except for exhibitions and playing me 3C I never saw him play for free. His talk and his money combined with a solid game was more than most could handle. The better players than Doc wouldn't play him.
 
This is one of the best threads I have read on this forum EVER.

Thank you,
Koop
 
Very True..

skins said:
this is what i've heard over the years. rudolf wanderone jr. was mostly a big time gambler dealing allot in horse racing. he really wasn't that good a pool player. he talked a better game than he played. he really couldn't hang with the pro's.
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I watched him and my uncle play in a place called Basils back in the 60's and he was more of a talker than a "player"
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I could not agree more. I'm actually amazed by how many met him!!!!
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Jude,

That is what is making this thread so amazing. All the first hand knowledge and stories.

Thanks for being curious enough to ask.
 
jimmyg said:
The Last Johnston City Tournament:
1972, Round-Robin, 9 Ball and 1 Pocket only.
Three weeks, you play everybody.

Tournament eve; Minnesota Fats ( Rudolph Wanderone ) is speaking live on a midwest tv and radio broadcast, trying to help Paulie Jansco promote the tournament. Here is one of the things he said, and I quote " Jimmy Reid is here from LA, and wants to play-any man from any land, for any amount he can count, anything he can bring, any game he can name."

Three weeks later-finals night, there are 4 players left in the 9 ball and 4 players left in the 1 pocket, yours truly is top of the board in both divisions, I'm ahead of Norman Hitchcock 1 game to love in the 1 pocket semi-finals and we had just begun the 2nd. game----when all of a sudden a voice comes over the microphone;

This is the FBI, everybody stay where you are, we've got all the exits closed, and this tournament is over. They had 33 Subpoenas and 12 indightments for interstate gambling act and income tax evasion. We all had to appear at a special Grand Jury hearing that was scheduled for 9am next morning in St Louis, Mo.. Come to find out, that the tournament eve quote of Fats was grounds enough for the interstate gambling charges, they (FBI) only made one mistake, they served Fats with a subpoena also.

About 1/2 of us had gone in and testified one at a time before the Grand Jury, then Fats showed up and demanded to testify next. When he got through testifying and came out into the corridor--- the whole Grand Jury followed him out and wanted his autograph. They decided not to follow the U.S. District Attorneys advice and immediately dropped the charges against all the poolplayers ( yours truly included ) that had been indicted.

Happy but curious I asked Fatty ( which is what his friends called him ) what had happened. He replied, "I told them that these poolplayers were harmless and to stop wasting the taxpayers' money, that they had 2 people subpoenaed out there, Dirty Low Down Red and Omaha Fats, and that if you gave them a blood test it would come back 90% hotdog & 10% coffee." Fatty was the best talker I've ever known, the DA didn't have a chance. Fatty got us in and Fatty got us out... New York Fats - alias - Minnesota Fats - ( Fatty ) like Ali was "The Greatest"...


Upon returning to LA, I told John Brascia ( John The Dancer ), what had happened - he added a little fiction, wrote the book, screenplay, and 7 years later the movie "THE BALTIMORE BULLET". It came out with James Coburn & Omar Shariff both playing my part. In real life at the end of the movie, Coburn plays Jimmy Fusco's part, wait a minute I'm getting confused, let's see, I was winning the tournament and I was also known as the best money player in the world. Bruce Boxleitner played Coburn's partner the real life Cole Dickson, who in reality was my partner, or was it Larry Lisciotti, there I go getting confused again, well anyway, sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. Gotta go now...

Your confused pool guru, Jimmy Reid

<more stories>
Click to expand...


Wow!!! I just got finished reading about the Johnston City Tournaments and the Jansco Brothers AND THAT FBI BUST! Man, that must've been a show!
 
Koop said:
Jude,

That is what is making this thread so amazing. All the first hand knowledge and stories.

Thanks for being curious enough to ask.
Click to expand...
True that. this is the coolest thread in a long time maybe ever! Rep points for jude!
 
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