How Would You Play This? 4/1/10

[Maniac]

After a good eight hours night sleep, and after a day of chainsawing a whole tree down and into firewood, I'd like to clarify that the answer to my first post was given with the notion that I was playing somebody of average league speed and not the plethora of professionals that we have on this forum.

There seems to be a lot of players on here that think that havings solids here is going to put them in favor to win this game. I'm still not so sure (even after a good nights sleep).

I have seen one poster ask what happens (if you are solids) if you MISS the breakout shot. I have seen another poster ask what happens if you get the breakout shot but still you do not get a good, makeable shot. These things can happen. Hell, even a professional misses shots and/or gets bad shape on balls more often than we like to believe. Then, why are we all assuming that Jude was playing someone good enough to get out with the solid balls? He didn't mention anything about the capabilities of his opponent in his original post.

It's good to be confident of your game, but I'm thinking that some of the posters on this thread, without given time to analyze the situation beforehand, would not have had an easy a time of winning this game (as solids) as they think they would have. Some would have, some may not have. I am not a great pool player, but one thing I have learned is, things don't always work out on a pool table they way you think/want them to.

To me that 3/5/8 cluster is just as much a problem for the player of solids as it is for the player of the stripes. In a lot of cases, this could be 50/50 odds on who wins this game.

Unless of course, we are all professionals!!!

Maniac

 

[JoeyA]

After a good eight hours night sleep, and after a day of chainsawing a whole tree down and into firewood, I'd like to clarify that the answer to my first post was given with the notion that I was playing somebody of average league speed and not the plethora of professionals that we have on this forum.

There seems to be a lot of players on here that think that havings solids here is going to put them in favor to win this game. I'm still not so sure (even after a good nights sleep).

I have seen one poster ask what happens (if you are solids) if you MISS the breakout shot. I have seen another poster ask what happens if you get the breakout shot but still you do not get a good, makeable shot. These things can happen. Hell, even a professional misses shots and/or gets bad shape on balls more often than we like to believe. Then, why are we all assuming that Jude was playing someone good enough to get out with the solid balls? He didn't mention anything about the capabilities of his opponent in his original post.

It's good to be confident of your game, but I'm thinking that some of the posters on this thread, without given time to analyze the situation beforehand, would not have had an easy a time of winning this game (as solids) as they think they would have. Some would have, some may not have. I am not a great pool player, but one thing I have learned is, things don't always work out on a pool table they way you think/want them to.

To me that 3/5/8 cluster is just as much a problem for the player of solids as it is for the player of the stripes. In a lot of cases, this could be 50/50 odds on who wins this game.

Unless of course, we are all professionals!!!

Maniac

I agree with you about the skill level having a large bearing on the decision making process. Also, it seems that we have a far superior group of players in this forum than I have normally seen in the pool leagues.

However, did you cut up a fallen tree or is it common to "season" firewood for several months?

About the only time I use firewood down here in Luziana is when we are having a bucherie. (We only have a fake, coal fireplace which sports natural gas, instead of the real deal).

Even with the higher costs of heating homes, I think it's the fear of carbon monoxide poisoning that keeps most of us from going back to coal.

JoeyA

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

He tried cross banking the 12 to pocket it and breaking the cluster, then got locked up on the 8 and lost. At least he went for it.

Chris

I never said I lost.

I got locked up and should have lost but my opponent allowed me to steal victory from the jaws of defeat.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude, on older cloth that is worn, I would think that the draw shot break out would be easier to do, since the bottom spin would catch sooner. On newer cloth, since the ball is sliding longer, wouldn't that make drawing into it slightly more difficult? Just curious here, this has always been my understanding of older cloth/newer cloth.

Actually, the cloth was so slow, there was little draw to be had. I know what you're saying, if the cloth is really really new, it slides before it takes off. When it's broken in a bit, you get nice and immediate draw action. This was really old. To get it to draw that much, you had to pound it which meant going into the rail early.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

No, I disagree. If you did this to me, I would take ball in hand and do one of two things, depending on just how the 3 and 5 were sitting. I would either shoot one of those two balls into the 12 to clear that pocket for me, while sticking you behind my other ball, or, I would manuever those two balls to be able to do what I just described and stick you kicking at the 12.

Once the 12 is moved, opening that pocket to the 3 and the 5, the runout is just a basic runout. No problems.

This is part of why I would want the 12 moved to the middle of the table before you try and break them out. It cuts down on your options and makes it a little harder to safe me.

You know, I don't hate the idea of taking a foul and moving the 8 infront of the side. Yeah, it's not going to start a multi-inning safety battle BUT it is going to complicate things. If you put the 8 right on the lip of the pocket, you're forcing your opponent to come up with a GOOD safety. He can't just safe you and casually leave the cueball hidden. He has to think about location of the 12 too.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Make the 12 and get straight in on the 5-8 combo. Slow bump the 5 ball to knock the 8 square in front of the side pocket, while leaving the two solids locked-up there and give up ball in hand.

edit...

sorry, already discussed.

 

[Maniac]

However, did you cut up a fallen tree or is it common to "season" firewood for several months? JoeyA

It was the ol' "eyesore" dead tree in my son's front yard. At age 25 he was scared to climb 25 ft. up a ladder with a chainsaw in his hand, so he sent his "good 'ol" 57 year old Pop up to do it. I went ahead and cut all the limbs great and small into firewood-sized lengths for him so he wouldn't have to get too dirty

Maniac

 

[JoeyA]

It was the ol' "eyesore" dead tree in my son's front yard. At age 25 he was scared to climb 25 ft. up a ladder with a chainsaw in his hand, so he sent hid "good 'ol" 57 year old Pop up to do it. I went ahead and cut all the limbs great and small into firewood-sized lengths for him so he wouldn't have to get too dirty

Maniac

Your son and my son share the same characteristics and both seem to know how to let pop "be the man". :thumbup:

Joeya

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Not so. IMO If you call safe, then pocket the 12, leaving the cue ball on the end rail near the middle diamond; you are almost guaranteed another inning. Depending on the thought process of your opponent, he might take a flyer at the 1 in the side with a breakout for the cluster. Its low percentage for almost anybody. If he wants to play safe off the 1, he has to hit it up and down the table using at least 1 rail, maybe 2 depending on how thick he hits the 1. At that point you have a one rail kick safe on the 8. If he wants to bump the 3 to the rail and lock you up from the 8, pocket the 1 and leave him the 6 to try and break up the cluster with bih.
The 8 should have been moved earlier, but it is what it is. You have to know how your opponent thinks, and what they will go for. Its like pushing out in 9 ball, leave them a 50-50% or less shot, hoping they will go for it. If they dont, reevaluate the table at that point and go from there.
Chuck

Maybe, if you are playing a 'C' player. But I said against a good player. You might get another inning at the table, but you are going to be in much worse shape than you were before. That's why you need to take the opportunity to win when you have it. A good player won't give you that opportunity again.

 

[paksat]

I'd hit the 5 into the 8 and leave the 8 in front of the side pocket with your opponents 3 and 5 stuck on the rails with the 12 and 8 blocking the outs. Your giving up BIH, but it would be tough for your opponent to get out.

I would then just hit the 5 off the rail and hide the cueball behind the 3 and 5 and getting potential BIH while simultaneously getting the cluster broken.

 

["T"]

I try to give myself 20 seconds to decide on these things and my choice probably would have been safing the cue ball behind the 12.

If it's a really tight safe, you get a decent chance at ball in hand and then going for the out. If you completely blow it, the 12 is still blocking the corner pocket. Especially with the eight in the middle of that cluster, taking away that upper left corner pocket could make getting out for solids an awful lot more work.

I like a lot of the other ideas as well but this is my 20 second solution.

 

[RiverCity]

Maybe, if you are playing a 'C' player. But I said against a good player. You might get another inning at the table, but you are going to be in much worse shape than you were before. That's why you need to take the opportunity to win when you have it. A good player won't give you that opportunity again.

Tell me what you would do in reply to that safe. Then I can tell you the return shot. Otherwise, we are spinning wheels and getting no where.
Chuck

 

[fan-tum]

i would hit the left side of the 12 with right hand English an play safe behind the 12 then hopefully get bih anbreak the 8 out with low right draw off the rail first

That's the shot.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Tell me what you would do in reply to that safe. Then I can tell you the return shot. Otherwise, we are spinning wheels and getting no where.
Chuck

Your opponent could just roll up on the 3 and leave you frozen behind it. If he ends up getting ball in hand, it's pretty easy to free up the 8 and leave you frozen to one of his balls again.

I agree that you are probably gonna get another inning at the table, I'm just saying your chances of winning are gonna be much worse when you do get back to the table, if you're playing a good player.

Sometimes the WEI table makes things look a bit easier than it really would be, but it looks to me that the breakout with low outside is possible. If it is, I think that's the shot you should play. I would love to get a pro's opinion on this, like John Schmidt.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Make his 1-ball. That will take away his breakout ball and leave your 12-ball in an easy kicking position from anywhere on the table.

This setup is NOT going to be solved anytime soon. Prepare for the upcoming safety battle by making his 1-ball. I might even consider making his 6-ball and going on 2 fouls. The idea is to force him to break the cluster out.

As long as the 12-ball stays where it is, you have an easy kick from anywhere on the table. Leave it alone.

 

[dabarbr]

Maybe, if you are playing a 'C' player. But I said against a good player. You might get another inning at the table, but you are going to be in much worse shape than you were before. That's why you need to take the opportunity to win when you have it. A good player won't give you that opportunity again.

You're right. Against a good player You might get back to the table more that once but with nothing better that you have right now.

I Might need a couple of BIHs but I would not start my run on the solids until every ball had a pocket. Any attempt to pocket a ball and break them up could wind up in disaster turning a sure win into a sure loss.

 

[RiverCity]

Maybe, if you are playing a 'C' player. But I said against a good player. You might get another inning at the table, but you are going to be in much worse shape than you were before. That's why you need to take the opportunity to win when you have it. A good player won't give you that opportunity again.

The 3 is too close to the rail, you would be hard pressed to hook the opponent from having a shot at the 1 in the side. A lot of high right maybe behind the 5, but the speed required would bump the 8 in front of the side giving other possibilities depending on the lay of the balls.
Chuck

 

[cuetechasaurus]

The 3 is too close to the rail, you would be hard pressed to hook the opponent from having a shot at the 1 in the side. A lot of high right maybe behind the 5, but the speed required would bump the 8 in front of the side giving other possibilities depending on the lay of the balls.
Chuck

What are you talking about? I am talking about what your opponent would do in response to YOUR shot, which is pocketing the 12 and leaving the cue ball on the end rail. I am saying that after you play your shot, your opponent could roll up on the 3-ball and hook you from the 8. You will be on the 8 because the 12 ball was your last ball.....

 

[onepocketron]

The last thing I would do is pocket you last ball unless you can use it to break out the eight. Thin the Q ball and get whitey behind it safing your opponent.
If you make you last ball and don't get the break out....your in big trouble.

 

[RiverCity]

What are you talking about? I am talking about what your opponent would do in response to YOUR shot, which is pocketing the 12 and leaving the cue ball on the end rail. I am saying that after you play your shot, your opponent could roll up on the 3-ball and hook you from the 8. You will be on the 8 because the 12 ball was your last ball.....

Im talking about what I said in the previous post. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2351693&postcount=59
Bumping the 3 is a likely shot from the opponent from the safe I said. The response is pocketing his 1 in the side. Leaves bih on the 6 to break out the cluster for the opponent, and either way he tries it, he risks getting hooked on the 8 because of going into the cluster from a bad line. If he gets the breakout fine, but you have given yourself a better chance to win than going for the breakout off of the 12 which is IMO too dangerous.
Like you said, the wei table makes things look easier, like breaking the cluster by drawing off of the 12 into 2 opponent object balls that can hook you from the 8 anyway.
The 8 should have been moved earlier in the rack, but since it wasnt, a smart play will win more games than attempting hero shots that IF either part is missed are guaranteed sell outs.
Chuck