"Hustling": Is It Sleazy Or Clever (Or Both)?

Is "Hustling" Sleazy, Clever, or Both?

  • I Think Hustling Is Sleazy.

    Votes: 129 39.9%
  • I Think Hustling Is Clever.

    Votes: 40 12.4%
  • I Think Hustling Is Both Sleazy & Clever.

    Votes: 154 47.7%

  • Total voters
    323

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Hustling defined: To earn one's living by illicit or unethical means

Easily falls into the sleazy category for me.

Steve H.


a.
an inducing by fraud, pressure, or deception, especially of inexperienced or uninformed persons, to buy something, to participate in an illicit scheme, dishonest gambling game, etc.

b.
such a product, scheme, gambling game, etc. Johnnyt
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Pool has a very long history of gambling and hustling and people seem to be smitten with it.. Look up at the poll results and you will see there are quite a few who think hustling, as defined in the op, is *both* sleazy and clever. I fall squarely in that group.

But, if. for instance, the "hustlers" were, in fact, going after a widow's rent or a special needs kid's lunch money, then I would vote sleazy without hesitation.

I believe you're basically a good guy. I think this is the thrust of our disagreement.
I believe sleazy behavior is sleazy and it doesn't much matter whether the victim is mother theresa or hitler.

There are probably things that could get me mad enough at another human being that I'd want
to empty their wallet. But simply wanting to do the same to me isn't one of them.
I certainly couldn't do that to another person as a calculated 'business decision'
and not feel empathy for someone who feels like I cheated them.

Ultimately there's just no reason to do it -
I can't take any pleasure in knowing I won a rigged game that I'm supposed to win.
I'm smart enough that a simple con doesn't feel especially clever.
I'm not broke enough to need the money, and if I WERE that broke, I'd get a job.
 
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sjharr

insert something witty...
Silver Member
You don't find it clever the way some hustlers pull off their ruse?

I abhor hustling (in the purest form), yet I still find some of the tricks "hustlers" use to be clever. But, I do not support these "clever" people.

Maniac

In answer to your question, No I do not find it clever in the least.

Deceiving another while disguising your true skill level with the intention of luring that person into a circumstance where the confidence is based solely on the hustler and his or her ability to manipulate the "mark" - who usually has lesser skill level and knowledge of said circumstance - is disgusting.

Steve H.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
In answer to your question, No I do not find it clever in the least.

Deceiving another while disguising your true skill level with the intention of luring that person into a circumstance where the confidence is based solely on the hustler and his or her ability to manipulate the "mark" - who usually has lesser skill level and knowledge of said circumstance - is disgusting.

Steve H.

I'm getting the idea that some of you are viewing this from OUTSIDE the
world of gambling....which is fine, I have friends that don't gamble....
...and I'm the only gambler in at least 3 generations of my family.

I lost $40 the first time I walked into a pool hall....for me, betting has
been an integral part of my billiard experience....
...so I feel we're talking from two different planets.

I have never won money from someone who wasn't trying to take mine...

...I don't cheat, or dump...I call my own fouls.
But I absolutely will NOT help my opponent to beat me...whether it's
choice of shots OR making the game.
I don't gamble with people who are drunk or mentally deficient.

So....I don't like being lumped in with the sleazes that I consider cheaters.

In the gambling world, I feel the competitors are like gladiators who
CHOOSE to step in the arena...sometimes they win, sometimes they lose...
....but no one is an innocent victim that got mugged.

pt...liking this thread...the over 'n' under is 200 posts, KC...:smile:
 

Spider1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
These threads are always pointless, for one simple reason:

Nobody ever gets hustled who was not first trying to hustle someone else.


They stepped up to play someone they thought they had the nuts against and would be robbing, and surprise...the predator became the prey.


I have zero sympathy for anyone who got "hustled". No victim = no crime.
 

sjharr

insert something witty...
Silver Member
I'm getting the idea that some of you are viewing this from OUTSIDE the
world of gambling....which is fine, I have friends that don't gamble....
...and I'm the only gambler in at least 3 generations of my family.

I lost $40 the first time I walked into a pool hall....for me, betting has
been an integral part of my billiard experience....
...so I feel we're talking from two different planets.

I have never won money from someone who wasn't trying to take mine...

...I don't cheat, or dump...I call my own fouls.
But I absolutely will NOT help my opponent to beat me...whether it's
choice of shots OR making the game.
I don't gamble with people who are drunk or mentally deficient.

So....I don't like being lumped in with the sleazes that I consider cheaters.

In the gambling world, I feel the competitors are like gladiators who
CHOOSE to step in the arena...sometimes they win, sometimes they lose...
....but no one is an innocent victim that got mugged.

pt...liking this thread...the over 'n' under is 200 posts, KC...:smile:


Bear in mind that I never did mention anything at all about stakes based competition - just hustling - apples and oranges.

Steve H.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bear in mind that I never did mention anything at all about stakes based competition - just hustling - apples and oranges.

Steve H.

I'm still sticking to my "gambling by the rules of poker'.....
...it's not apples and oranges to me.

Years ago, I heard a guy complaining that he got taken off by a drunk act.
He called them sleazy hustlers...I told that he was crying crocodile tears.
I couldn't lose a dime in that spot, 'cause I won't gamble with a drunken idiot.
In this case, the loser is sleazier.
 

sjharr

insert something witty...
Silver Member
I'm getting the idea that some of you are viewing this from OUTSIDE the
world of gambling....which is fine, I have friends that don't gamble....
...and I'm the only gambler in at least 3 generations of my family.

I lost $40 the first time I walked into a pool hall....for me, betting has
been an integral part of my billiard experience....
...so I feel we're talking from two different planets.

I have never won money from someone who wasn't trying to take mine...

...I don't cheat, or dump...I call my own fouls.
But I absolutely will NOT help my opponent to beat me...whether it's
choice of shots OR making the game.
I don't gamble with people who are drunk or mentally deficient.

So....I don't like being lumped in with the sleazes that I consider cheaters.

In the gambling world, I feel the competitors are like gladiators who
CHOOSE to step in the arena...sometimes they win, sometimes they lose...
....but no one is an innocent victim that got mugged.

pt...liking this thread...the over 'n' under is 200 posts, KC...:smile:

I'm still sticking to my "gambling by the rules of poker'.....
...it's not apples and oranges to me.

Years ago, I heard a guy complaining that he got taken off by a drunk act.
He called them sleazy hustlers...I told that he was crying crocodile tears.
I couldn't lose a dime in that spot, 'cause I won't gamble with a drunken idiot.
In this case, the loser is sleazier.


Feel free to chose to stick with your "gambling by the rules of poker", but failing to realize that stakes based competition and hustling are as different as night and day is rash. The example you provided only supports my personal opinions about hustling.

Steve H.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
Feel free to chose to stick with your "gambling by the rules of poker", but failing to realize that stakes based competition and hustling are as different as night and day is rash. The example you provided only supports my personal opinions about hustling.

Steve H.

I like the game making....I probably enjoy it as much as the playing...
...been a bargainer since I was old enough to talk.
I like this one by barking4action....maybe not a good example looking
for an edge...but the mood is evocative of a lot of action rooms.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...=vzot-AVD3A4S0TvOinBwNg&bvm=bv.48705608,d.aWM

Here's a scenario I was involved in in the action days....
...walked into a room in Little Egypt...got some balls from the counter..
...went to a back table and started knocking in the object balls.....
...without using the cue-ball.
By the third rack, I was surrounded by people trying to make a game.
....I won a couple thou...I was the best player by two balls in that joint.

Can you point out any innocent victims in this scene?
 
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smoooothstroke

JerLaw
Silver Member
You forgot to add -Niether sleazy or clever.

Hustling is mostly about getting a good game.If you are a "money player" you either learn how to negotiate or you are a sucker.Most "hustlers" can "get there"- bring out there best game when the presure is on,that is what makes them a successfull money player.


People seam to have this predator or prey mentality these days.Its not the end of the world if you get hustled.Its nbd,you bet the money and lost! No1 but you reached in your pocket or hauled out your wallet.No1 held you up at gunpoint.You could have just kept knocking them around with your buddies.

If you like to play pool,play for fun or play tournaments.If you like to play pool and have a great time play pool for money,stop whining and make a good game.(you still have to get there and most whiners will not)
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
...I don't cheat, or dump...I call my own fouls.
But I absolutely will NOT help my opponent to beat me...whether it's
choice of shots OR making the game.

Which is all fine, that's just gambling or matching up.
Not the same as conning people.
Why do I feel like half the posts in this thread that apparently defend "hustling"
actually have nothing to do with true hustling and are just talking about regular gambling?

You walk in and challenge me for a few bucks, not knowing if I can play = not hustling.
You argue with me to get more weight and I reluctantly accept though I don't like it = not hustling
Missing intentionally vs. your buddy and faking a shake in your hand = hustling.

Nobody is complaining about everyday matching up.

These threads are always pointless, for one simple reason:
Nobody ever gets hustled who was not first trying to hustle someone else.

Not true at all.

Some players just want to match up and are bored if they're playing for free.
And some go into a game not knowing if they can win but curious to see where they fall
in the pool hall pecking order.

The first time I got hustled, I promise you, I had ZERO intention of robbing the other guy
and I just accepted his offer to play for money because that's just part of the pool hall social scene.
You gamble because that's apparently what's expected of you when you reach a certain level.
He let me think we'd be an even match when I actually had no chance.
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Taking $$$ under false pretenses is the purist form of hustling". True or False; That is what the question and subsequent poll should be.

Thats the correct language and most specific targeted words to get to the root of this discussion. everything else is fluff.....
 

bmsclayton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hustling

I have been hustled and have hustled I guess. I play like a D/C player depending on your definition. At a good Pool hall I am terrible, at a bar I am considered pretty good. Am I hustling if I tell someone at a bar I am terrible? A good pro got a line on me that I could get the out of rotation game from him. I won easily but I didn't have to. The way I play I could lose that game on any given day. So did I hustle him by telling him I play terrible then run more than half the racks with the out of rotation? Being hustled is all subjective to how you feel about it. In the grand scheme of things even the best player at our pool hall is terrible or the 10th best at another. I won't lie or hustle a friend or friend of a friend etc... but I am not going to walk in another pool hall and say I play exactly this way on my top game now feed me to someone I can't beat either.

Brendan Sullivan
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here is how I look at it. Anytime you don't lay all the facts on the table for the other side's consideration you are "hustling". Now is that sleazy or smart?

Well it depends on your perspective doesn't it?

If you are a painter bidding on a job and you don't disclose that 50% of your customers are unhappy with your work.

If you are a homeowner who tells the painter you can only afford to pay 70% of his asking price when you could easily pay the full price.

Anytime you bargain you are hustling, matching up to get what you think is the best of it.

It can be argued that hustling is really the world's oldest profession.
 

Banks

Banned
Here is how I look at it. Anytime you don't lay all the facts on the table for the other side's consideration you are "hustling". Now is that sleazy or smart?

Well it depends on your perspective doesn't it?

If you are a painter bidding on a job and you don't disclose that 50% of your customers are unhappy with your work.

If you are a homeowner who tells the painter you can only afford to pay 70% of his asking price when you could easily pay the full price.

Anytime you bargain you are hustling, matching up to get what you think is the best of it.

It can be argued that hustling is really the world's oldest profession.

"Try our special, it's great."

"We need a tax for the children."

"Best mechanic in town."

Poker machines never tell you that the odds are better on the adjacent machine.

To me, it depends on what the hustle is, what the definition of hustle is and then there is the question of how much of the responsibility lies with the "victim".
 

ironman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not proud of some of the hustles and cons I pulled off now that I can't play anymore, but still say you can only con or hustle someone that thinks they are getting way the best of it and think they can't lose. Johnnyt

This is so true and often overlooked when it is done. They thought they wree getting away with something too.
The fun is when it backfires on the Hustler and he gets beaten. Ihave had it happen to me and seen it happen to many.Weh it does happen, as they say,"No bodt screams louder that the thief who was robbed'!
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Here is how I look at it. Anytime you don't lay all the facts on the table for the other side's consideration you are "hustling". Now is that sleazy or smart?

Well it depends on your perspective doesn't it?
[snip]
It can be argued that hustling is really the world's oldest profession.

I think that would be whoring :p

Maybe there are gray areas, but if you're lying to get money,
you're probably falling more the sleazy side of gray.
I'm not seeing "smart" in either of your examples, just slightly sleazy and sleazier.

"I can only afford to pay 70% of that" would be a lie.
I'm not gonna lie to get a 'pity discount'.
I can just say "that's more than I'm willing to spend" or "I only budgeted X dollars".

As for the painter doing a "lie of omission", if he takes my money to do the job
and does it poorly and cuts corners and takes longer than promised, then yes, he was sleazy.
 

The Kiss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I forget who said it " You can con an honest man" but its true a sucker is the one who thinks he is going to rob you with some ridiculous game or getting weight. Hustling is an art form which basically comes down to years of practice at pool to the point where you can hide your speed and still beat most people. Which in my eyes is an Art Form

A fool and his money soon part I can likely walk into a bar and beat the best shooter in the house in my area. But if I go into the pool rooms left in my area I know who to match up with and what is a bad game.

I also know who might give out too much weight and tilt the game to my favor. Basically these days I tell a guy upfront how I play or they know how I play and they want to match up or not.

I would say in my 25 years of serious play I have never had the opportunity to really hustle anyone. But I am still looking for that sucker:thumbup:
 

sjharr

insert something witty...
Silver Member
I like the game making....I probably enjoy it as much as the playing...
...been a bargainer since I was old enough to talk.
I like this one by barking4action....maybe not a good example looking
for an edge...but the mood is evocative of a lot of action rooms.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...=vzot-AVD3A4S0TvOinBwNg&bvm=bv.48705608,d.aWM

Here's a scenario I was involved in in the action days....
...walked into a room in Little Egypt...got some balls from the counter..
...went to a back table and started knocking in the object balls.....
...without using the cue-ball.
By the third rack, I was surrounded by people trying to make a game.
....I won a couple thou...I was the best player by two balls in that joint.

Can you point out any innocent victims in this scene?


I’ll continue to denote that I have no qualms with stakes based gambling.
Albeit, to utilize a poker analogy - laying all the cards on the table should be the accepted approach. Head to head matchups are a great experience in pocket billiards.

I do however think that taking advantage of someone through deceit, intentional masquerading, or using tactics to falsify ability to gain an advantage is disgusting – whether or not you think the person ‘deserves’ it or ‘they would do the same to me’ if given the same opportunity – just because your ‘hustling abilities’ – and I use that term loosely, are more practiced than the intended hustlee.

All this hyperbole about folks defending hustling as an ‘art’ does nothing but encourage the stereotype that continues to keep pocket billiards from building a better reputation.


Steve H.
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Afficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
<snipped the first paragraph>

Here's a scenario I was involved in in the action days....
...walked into a room in Little Egypt...got some balls from the counter..
...went to a back table and started knocking in the object balls.....
...without using the cue-ball.
By the third rack, I was surrounded by people trying to make a game.
....I won a couple thou...I was the best player by two balls in that joint.

Can you point out any innocent victims in this scene?


I’ll continue to denote that I have no qualms with stakes based gambling.
Albeit, to utilize a poker analogy - laying all the cards on the table should be the accepted approach. Head to head matchups are a great experience in pocket billiards.

I do however think that taking advantage of someone through deceit, intentional masquerading, or using tactics to falsify ability to gain an advantage is disgusting – whether or not you think the person ‘deserves’ it or ‘they would do the same to me’ if given the same opportunity – just because your ‘hustling abilities’ – and I use that term loosely, are more practiced than the intended hustlee.

All this hyperbole about folks defending hustling as an ‘art’ does nothing but encourage the stereotype that continues to keep pocket billiards from building a better reputation.

Steve H.

Steve;

I'm not trying to stir the pot; I'm simply trying to better understand your position.

In the scenario pt109 discussed in the quote just above yours, is it your opinion that his behavior was "disgusting"?

best,
brian kc
 
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