"Hustling": Is It Sleazy Or Clever (Or Both)?

Is "Hustling" Sleazy, Clever, or Both?

  • I Think Hustling Is Sleazy.

    Votes: 129 39.9%
  • I Think Hustling Is Clever.

    Votes: 40 12.4%
  • I Think Hustling Is Both Sleazy & Clever.

    Votes: 154 47.7%

  • Total voters
    323

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
<snipped the first paragraph>

Here's a scenario I was involved in in the action days....
...walked into a room in Little Egypt...got some balls from the counter..
...went to a back table and started knocking in the object balls.....
...without using the cue-ball.
By the third rack, I was surrounded by people trying to make a game.
....I won a couple thou...I was the best player by two balls in that joint.

Can you point out any innocent victims in this scene?




Steve;

I'm not trying to stir the pot; I'm simply trying to better understand your position.

In the scenario pt109 discussed in the quote just above yours, is it your opinion that his behavior was "disgusting"?

best,
brian kc

I know what you're getting at here, Brian (at least I think I do). If you are thinking like I am, then you're thinking, "Hey, nobody INVITED all those guys to come around my table and try to take MY money" (speaking from pt109's point-of-view).

Am I correct? IMO, I do not feel like pt109 did anything disgusting. Really, it wasn't even necessarily "hustling". The action was all on the other players in the room. If they would have just kept to themselves and minded their own business, they could have went home with their own money in their wallets (unless they lost it to someone else :wink:).

Maniac
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
I have to admit it's hard to feel sorry for anyone in the quoted scenario,
where the player practices like a fish and reels in people looking to steal from him.

That part that's a bit hard to swallow is, how do you win a couple thou there without further deception?
The guys who actually practice shooting balls straight into holes (actual beginners)
do NOT bet hundreds or thousands on a set.

I'm thinking there was a little more involved than just three racks of fish-like behavior.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I have to admit it's hard to feel sorry for anyone in the quoted scenario,
where the player practices like a fish and reels in people looking to steal from him.

That part that's a bit hard to swallow is, how do you win a couple thou there without further deception?
The guys who actually practice shooting balls straight into holes (actual beginners)
do NOT bet hundreds or thousands on a set.

I'm thinking there was a little more involved than just three racks of fish-like behavior.

Yeah....and why in hell didn't those chumps pull up when they saw something more than a beginner? It wouldn't have taken the brightest bulb in the box to figure out that it was a setup.

A fella could get hurt doin' sh*t like that.

Maniac
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Afficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's an interesting study trying to learn the different thresholds people have when deciding if "hustling" is acceptable behavior.

Another poker analogy on top of the previous one that was made here, perhaps, can serve to illustrate the two total opposite ends of the spectrum.

Bluffing in poker is intentionally deceiving for the purpose of giving oneself an edge hoping to win the money. This is considered a desirable skill and when done well it can be applauded.

Having an extra Ace up your sleeve and playing it would also provide an edge hoping to win the money. This, of course, is considered cheating and, as we've seen in old westerns, that behavior can get your ass shot.

I think what it boils down to as it relates to pool is the question of which behaviors do we consider clever and skillfull as opposed to flat-out cheating. Or, simply, what is acceptable and what is not.

To my mind, the scenario pt shared with us where he was hitting object balls straight into pockets then was approached by players looking to make a game is right on par with bluffing in poker.

Conversely, anyone who dumps a game, just like the guy with the Ace up his sleeve, should suffer some severe punishment for that decision, imo.

I don't have much use for liars and cheats, myself, but I really do find some of the methods used by pool hustlers to be very clever, at times. I'm definitely not encouraging such behavior, just making an observation.

Creedo said earlier that he thinks I'm basically a good guy.

To that I say, thank you and hell yes I am and you can bet real high on it!

Careful, though, it may be a hustle. ;)

best,
brian kc
.
 
Last edited:

smoooothstroke

JerLaw
Silver Member
I have seen the phrase "you can only hustle a greedy person" or something to that effect,several times in this thread.This is only somewhat true IMO.

Many hustlers work the "buddy" angle.When I first started playing I can honestly say I did not care about making money at pool.I was looking for competition,recreation and so on.I had a good job with plenty of spending cash.I would pay everyone's table time buy them drinks and gamble away my money to them as well.Of course I had a line of people waiting anytime I walked into the pool room.Man I had a lot of friends!

You still see knew players who want to play for money but don't see it as gambling.In some rare rooms everyone is on board with this and they all just keep recycling the same money around the room.

Personally I never work the "buddy" con but I see it a great deal.I will hustle maybe even stall but everyone is different when it comes to what they will or will not do for a money game.
 

sjharr

insert something witty...
Silver Member
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
<snipped the first paragraph>

Here's a scenario I was involved in in the action days....
...walked into a room in Little Egypt...got some balls from the counter..
...went to a back table and started knocking in the object balls.....
...without using the cue-ball.
By the third rack, I was surrounded by people trying to make a game.
....I won a couple thou...I was the best player by two balls in that joint.

Can you point out any innocent victims in this scene?




Steve;

I'm not trying to stir the pot; I'm simply trying to better understand your position.

In the scenario pt109 discussed in the quote just above yours, is it your opinion that his behavior was "disgusting"?

best,
brian kc

Let me clarify by stating that in the scenario proved by pt 109 I was not implying that any behavior provided in that particular scenario caused me any disgust.

What does cause me disgust is actively participating in or defending hustling - as described in my earlier posts in this thread - as an 'art" form or acceptably ethical based on situational circumstances that are solely designed and implemented to take advantage of another....that's disgusting.

Steve H.
 

The Saw

Juicy Pop in 2016!
Silver Member
Let me clarify by stating that in the scenario proved by pt 109 I was not implying that any behavior provided in that particular scenario caused me any disgust.

What does cause me disgust is actively participating in or defending hustling - as described in my earlier posts in this thread - as an 'art" form or acceptably ethical based on situational circumstances that are solely designed and implemented to take advantage of another....that's disgusting.

Steve H.

Hustlers aren't trying to hustle people like you, so get over it.... They want to play dope dealers, bookies, stock brokers, car salesmen, etc..., you know, people that steal money from others. Most of them don't pay taxes on their earnings, or use loop holes to evade what they can. When they lose to hustlers they're "paying taxes" on their money. It then gets redistributed amongst the masses instead of being left in a safe or blown on cocaine and whores. So maybe you should thank hustlers instead of denigrating them, they're the fair tax section of the pool world.
 

Cdryden

Pool Addict
Silver Member
Is it wrong, sure, but if we are going to crucify pool for it lets apply the same efforts to all the other things in life that try to gain money through deceit.

Like:

Insurance companies
Governments
Cell phone companies
Pharmaceutical companies
Lawyers
Telemarketers
Walmart
Cable companies
Male enhancement products :eek:
Military Recruiters
Ex-Wives
Preachers and televangelists
Colleges and Tech Schools
Crazy ass Carnies
Chiropractors
Contractors
The ***** who told me he could fix my car for x amount of money and I would never have that problem again. I was 17 on Christmas day when it caught fire! (I'm still looking for that guy)
and on and on and on and on and on..............................
 

The Saw

Juicy Pop in 2016!
Silver Member
Is it wrong, sure, but if we are going to crucify pool for it lets apply the same efforts to all the other things in life that try to gain money through deceit.

Like:

Insurance companies
Governments
Cell phone companies
Pharmaceutical companies
Lawyers
Telemarketers
Walmart
Cable companies
Male enhancement products :eek:
Military Recruiters
Ex-Wives
Preachers and televangelists
Colleges and Tech Schools
Crazy ass Carnies
Chiropractors
Contractors
The ***** who told me he could fix my car for x amount of money and I would never have that problem again. I was 17 on Christmas day when it caught fire! (I'm still looking for that guy)
and on and on and on and on and on..............................

Exactly..... I'll bet high that most who despise hustlers are heavily vested in IRA's and/or 401k's. Yet the people who manage those funds are doing the investors doggie style like they're in a cheap porno flick, yet they hate on pool hustlers. Pool hustlers are little fish in the grand scheme of hustlers in general. Pension managers and many on your list are true sharks.
 

sjharr

insert something witty...
Silver Member
Hustlers aren't trying to hustle people like you, so get over it.... They want to play dope dealers, bookies, stock brokers, car salesmen, etc..., you know, people that steal money from others. Most of them don't pay taxes on their earnings, or use loop holes to evade what they can. When they lose to hustlers they're "paying taxes" on their money. It then gets redistributed amongst the masses instead of being left in a safe or blown on cocaine and whores. So maybe you should thank hustlers instead of denigrating them, they're the fair tax section of the pool world.

Get over what exactly?
That it's my personal opinion that hustling - as I described earlier in this thread - is disgusting?

The examples you provided are very presumptuous. Am I to assume that it is your opinion that all stock brokers, car salesmen, etc... steal their wages from others and do not pay taxes? Is that your basis for justifying hustling as acceptable?

Feel free to attempt to justify hustling however you fell necessary, it's still an unethical and disgusting practice that will do nothing but continue to boost the negative stereotypical image pocket billiards and the 'pool world' is generally associated with.

Steve H.
 

Banks

Banned
I think that would be whoring :p

Maybe there are gray areas, but if you're lying to get money,
you're probably falling more the sleazy side of gray.
I'm not seeing "smart" in either of your examples, just slightly sleazy and sleazier.

"I can only afford to pay 70% of that" would be a lie.
I'm not gonna lie to get a 'pity discount'.
I can just say "that's more than I'm willing to spend" or "I only budgeted X dollars".

As for the painter doing a "lie of omission", if he takes my money to do the job
and does it poorly and cuts corners and takes longer than promised, then yes, he was sleazy.

I can say that "I'm not that good" because in the grand scheme of things, I'm really not that good. As long as I leave off the "compared to you" part, then it's the truth. I could also say "I want the 7 and 8", even though I can give them the same, it isn't a lie because I didn't say that I need it.

You also say you won't lie to get a discount. Well, that means that you'll be paying the premium price because you can afford to. Why couldn't pool players do the same? Why play all-out for $5/rack to get somebody's $20 when you can play relaxed at $10/rack to get somebody else's $100? I could do my job in half the time, but should I?

The painter may not have been lying, he may just suck and not really know it. If you've watched Restaurant Impossible, you know what I mean.

I think it's both sleazy and clever, depending on the situation. I was allowed to drop hundreds while almost falling-down-drunk. I'm almost half-way back on that, but I don't plan on stopping there. :)
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
To my mind, the scenario pt shared with us where he was hitting object balls straight into pockets then was approached by players looking to make a game is right on par with bluffing in poker.

Have you seen Rounders yet? :) If not you should. I'd call it poker's "TCOM".
Rounders shows you can hustle at poker, so I wouldn't say bluffing is equivalent to pool hustling.
I'd say poker hustling is equivalent to pool hustling.

The reason the bluffing analogy doesn't work is that bluffing is a necessary part of the game.
Deception is built into it because players hide their cards according to the rules of the game.
The game would be unplayable if someone opted to just show their cards.

There is no rule in pool requiring you to deceive others by e.g. hiding your skill.
And the rules go out of their way to list many forms of deception as "unsportsmanlike" with penalties.

An easy way to test whether your analogy works:
Put up a poll about how many people think bluffing in poker is sleazy.
Think it'll come close to 85% like this one has?
 

The Saw

Juicy Pop in 2016!
Silver Member
Feel free to attempt to justify hustling however you fell necessary, it's still an unethical and disgusting practice that will do nothing but continue to boost the negative stereotypical image pocket billiards and the 'pool world' is generally associated with.

Steve H.

All the while, everyone is waiting for the next "The Hustler" or "The Color of Money" to come along, even those not in the pool world.... I'm sure those two movies are purely disgusting to you.
 

leto1776

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All the while, everyone is waiting for the next "The Hustler" or "The Color of Money" to come along, even those not in the pool world.... I'm sure those two movies are purely disgusting to you.

And in both of those movies, Fast Eddie ended up leaving hustling behind in order to show he was the best.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Okay, not trying to stir the pot, but this is why I think pool hustling can be sleazy AND clever:

Luther "Wimpy" Lassiter walks into a Midwest town's poolhall on a Friday afternoon wearing a dirty pair of bib overalls and a straw hat...........

.........soon enough, he's got all the local hotshots tripping over each other trying to get to this "old farmer's" weeks wages.

Guess who walked out with the cheese???

This was a subtle hustle, not disgusting because 1.) he never made any claim to being an actual farmer, and 2.) He never initiated any of the action that took place. He was simply minding his own business. The greed of others (who were imo disgusting) got the best of them.

Pretty clever if you ask me!!!

Maniac (I can even picture a corn-cob pipe in his mouth :thumbup:)
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Okay, not trying to stir the pot, but this is why I think pool hustling can be sleazy AND clever:

Luther "Wimpy" Lassiter walks into a Midwest town's poolhall on a Friday afternoon wearing a dirty pair of bib overalls and a straw hat...........

.........soon enough, he's got all the local hotshots tripping over each other trying to get to this "old farmer's" weeks wages.

Guess who walked out with the cheese???

This was a subtle hustle, not disgusting because 1.) he never made any claim to being an actual farmer, and 2.) He never initiated any of the action that took place. He was simply minding his own business. The greed of others (who were imo disgusting) got the best of them.

Pretty clever if you ask me!!!

Maniac (I can even picture a corn-cob pipe in his mouth :thumbup:)

I may not have all the facts completely correct, but close enough to make my point.

Maniac
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Hustlers aren't trying to hustle people like you, so get over it.... They want to play dope dealers, bookies, stock brokers, car salesmen, etc..., you know, people that steal money from others. Most of them don't pay taxes on their earnings, or use loop holes to evade what they can. When they lose to hustlers they're "paying taxes" on their money. It then gets redistributed amongst the masses instead of being left in a safe or blown on cocaine and whores. So maybe you should thank hustlers instead of denigrating them, they're the fair tax section of the pool world.

HUSTLERS = Fair dinkum journeymen. :D
 

The Saw

Juicy Pop in 2016!
Silver Member
And in both of those movies, Fast Eddie ended up leaving hustling behind in order to show he was the best.

And what drew so many people to those movies? The hustling..... Without hustling, neither would have been made at all.

Hustling isn't a "pool thing", pick almost any sport or game (golf, tennis, ping pong, bowling, video games, etc....), and hustling is involved right to the very core of it.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
And actually Fast Eddie explains why there is no victim in the very first scene of The Hustler.
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hustling isn't a "pool thing", pick almost any sport or game (golf, tennis, ping pong, bowling, video games, etc....), and hustling is involved right to the very core of it.


i see nothing wrong with a "Competitive advantage" in anything in life.

Problem I see is all the socialists wanting everything to be = or fair , I dont want to live in that world, and thats what the world is becoming....
 
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