I paid $2500 southwest cue that is warped !

Please have this cue spun in a lathe before people say things they will later regret (not that that hasn't happened already). Its a SW, please spin it in a lathe and see if its wobbles before you are sure that it is warped.

Thanks

Kevin


Cooler heads prevail...
 
Cooler heads prevail...

Am I cracked here? Didn't you show me some jacked around method you have to use to roll SWs because they all show lift even when they are straight?

Maybe it was a dream, but I'm sure it happened, back a million years ago before I became the absolute expert I am now.

LOL

Kevin
 
I always sell on a satisfaction guaranteed basis. No questions asked. If you are not happy with the cue on arrival simply return it for a complete refund. IMHO all the sales here should be conducted that way. That having been said, it's problematic buying and selling overseas. Shipping is complicated and expensive. I guess cues can warp in transit. Thank God it hasn't happened to me yet. I would be livid if I paid $2500, or $1000 for that matter, and the cue was warped on arrival. I would feel just as bad if I sold a straight cue and it arrived warped !

The 2 cues I bought from the Philippines arrived dead straight via FedEx. That's a huge change in humidity from the Phils to Michigan. I am getting leery of International shipping though. Not only the known hazards but also greater likelihood of fraud. Should we all use brokers for all deals ? Is insisting on a USPS MO any help. Any fraud via them is Postal Fraud. Just thinking out loud...Tom
 
No need to get all colored text on me.

Good luck with your new pretzel.

Edit: I did read what he said. I also bet English is not his first language and what I see in there is that he probably asked his friends if the cue could warp in shipping and someone spouted one of the many SW myths that they all have "taper roll" or whatever. If you are not savvy enough to understand what can happen to a piece of wood moving between a jungle and New York thats on you.

LMAO! "No need to get all colored text on me." - JCIN

If I didn't have a financial obligation to keep my daughter in ice cream and princess dresses I would erase my blatantly commercial signature and only use this one forever or until something funnier came along.
 
to the point !

Video. Ask for video of the cues being rolled.

www.jbcases.com

*** i'm not on the buyer's side or seller's side, either ***

yes, it'll be great if buyer posts a vedio for everyone to check out how serious the warp is.
i've owned and played approximately 15 SW cues.
when i bought them, some were dead straight, some were wraped.
but after staying with me for months, all my SW cues became dead straight :eek:
people really know about SW cues will not think "a little warped" is an issue.
however, people still have their right to dis-like that "a little warped".
people love SW cues because SW cues play great, not because they're super straight. SW cues are built in the desert, so that they can move once go out of the desert. To avoid arguement, seller'd better mention "typical SW typer warp" which does not affect its playability at all.
Yang Ching Shun had a SW cue seriously warped on the forearm (warped at the top of the low points).......................just my little humble thoughts.
 
Insurance?

Ron,

I know your a good guy, and I'm not questioning the sellers honesty, but I don't understand your post...The buyer buys a cue listed as straight, but receives a cue that's warped...Are you saying once the cue leaves the sellers hands, and the cue warps in transit all liability, responsibility is on the buyer, and the seller is free of any tie to the cue?

If I ship a straight cue in a case inside a box and it is warped I would expect the insurance to pay for it! I use alot of bubble wrap to help keep out the cold and use the fastest service (Next Day) and Insure it! If SW has this strange taper can you put it on a lathe as kevin said? I have no dog in this fight just saying Wilson was a great guy to deal with on several deals! I paid for the fastest shipping and Insured and everything was fine then again we were shipping Tascarella's and Szamboti's and these are well made cues! I have never owned a SW and consider them production cues as they make several 100's a year. I hope everything works out and hopefully it was INSURED so neither takes a loss on this deal!
 
Am I cracked here? Didn't you show me some jacked around method you have to use to roll SWs because they all show lift even when they are straight?

Maybe it was a dream, but I'm sure it happened, back a million years ago before I became the absolute expert I am now.

LOL

Kevin

I don't roll cues to determine if they're straight. I showed you how I check each piece uing a flat surface and light, then if they're straight I can assemble them and turn them by sight to see if the joint is properly aligned.

I've dealt with Steven. He knows how to check a cue for straightness, so my assumption is the handle is indeed warped.

The problem is you have a cue made in one of the driest areas in the United States, Las Vegas, with 15% daytime humidity, and it lived in one of the most humid equatorial climates, Indonesia, with 80% humidity - where climate controlled homes are rare. In some parts of Indonesia, refrigerators are rare! By the way, about 30 years ago I beat all the players in Denpasar, so I am the Bali champion.

My guess is the cue is indeed warped and the seller is not adept at determining if the cue was straight.

Note in his original communications (Steven's first post) the seller acknowledges a wobble in the neck. That to me is the smoking gun. It's true that a parabolic taper accentuates any warp. he should have disclosed that the cue is not 100% straight as advertised.
 
If I ship a straight cue in a case inside a box and it is warped I would expect the insurance to pay for it! I use alot of bubble wrap to help keep out the cold and use the fastest service (Next Day) and Insure it! If SW has this strange taper can you put it on a lathe as kevin said? I have no dog in this fight just saying Wilson was a great guy to deal with on several deals! I paid for the fastest shipping and Insured and everything was fine then again we were shipping Tascarella's and Szamboti's and these are well made cues! I have never owned a SW and consider them production cues as they make several 100's a year. I hope everything works out and hopefully it was INSURED so neither takes a loss on this deal!

I doubt any insurance company will pay off on that claim. For one thing they only have to do a simple google search to find out that wood moves and that almost no cue maker guarantees against warpage. And the ones that do say very clearly that the warranty only applies to the original owner.

Insurance when shipping only applies to loss or damage where the package itself is clearly damaged.

I don't think insurance is any sort of option here. To my mind if there is ANY DOUBT at all I want to see a video of the cue rolling. Sometimes an uneven table will make a straight cue appear warped but it will never make a warped cue appear straight per my experience. So it's up to the seller to prove to the buyers that the cue is straight or simply to show the degree of warpage/taper roll that exists.

Another reason why I prefer to sell cases. :-)

P.S. I also prefer to sight my cues rather than roll them. I find that very few cues will "roll" 100% "straight" but you can see whether it's straight through the core by sighting them. I also don't think that a minor wobble on a cue is a big deal. The connection between your hands and where the tip is going is what counts. Back in my junior hustling days I would pick a warped cue just to mess with people's heads. Didn't do me any good as I lost more of those "hustler" trips than I won. But I could run out just as well (or badly) with the warped house cue as I could with a straight one. In fact one of the best scores I ever made was $1800 off Bowling Alley Ron down at Midnight's Bottle Club in Ft. Lauderdale Fl. using a badly warped house cue. (name dropping for the context and fact checkers) :-)
 
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I've owned 10 Southwest cues and between three other friends of mine I've seen and played with over 30. From what I understand they do not roll like most straight tapered cues because of the "compound taper" SW uses in the butt. Putting them in a lathe is the only test I've relied on to validate their straightness.

I suggest you send it to Laurie Franklin and have her determine if it's warped. I'm not sure if she does that but that would be my first guess to get some real clarity.

The sad part to this whole thread is that the cue is unsalable now because of the unknown potential issues surrounding the cue posted on a public forum. I don't think anyone would touch the cue if you retain ownership or send it back.... Everyone looses in this situation. :(

The only way to right the ship is to get confirmation from Laurie that the cue is straight or warped. That is in the best interest of both Seller and Buyer at this point and the only thing reasonable to do right now. Share the cost to send it to Laurie. If she says it's straight keep the cue. If it's legitimately warped get a refund - minus some amount that quantifies the risk you took for buying an oversea cue. That way you loose a little for taking the risk of buying the cue and the seller now is left with a warped cue.

Just my 2 cents.

- Patrick J.
 
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... Sometimes an uneven table will make a straight cue appear warped but it will never make a warped cue appear straight per my experience...

...P.S. I also prefer to sight my cues rather than roll them. I find that very few cues will "roll" 100% "straight" but you can see whether it's straight through the core by sighting them...

You are absolutely correct, John.

I tried rolling my cues on different tables, and they DID roll significantly different on different tables.

I also trust my eye more when judging whether a cue is straight or not. But it is not a popular way to show others because some can see the slight warp, many cannot.

My friend has another way of testing the warp. He holds the cue at balance point with both hands, straight up, then spin it into the air. just for 1-2 second glance to see whether the spinning cue moves or not. if the cue spins perfectly without noticeable fluctuation, it is straight. This method works well, but, again, it is for one's self only.

I agree that spinning the cue on a lathe is the best possible way to decide.

and yes, wood can move, but no one can say for sure if it will move to straighten up or warp worse.
 
Seems to me the problem occurred long before the cue arrived. It happened when the buyer went ahead with the transaction, didn't stick to his guns about using an escrow service and shipped cash rather than insist on paypal.

That's a deal breaker, ladies. Shut it down!
 
You are absolutely correct, John.

I tried rolling my cues on different tables, and they DID roll significantly different on different tables.

I also trust my eye more when judging whether a cue is straight or not. But it is not a popular way to show others because some can see the slight warp, many cannot.

My friend has another way of testing the warp. He holds the cue at balance point with both hands, straight up, then spin it into the air. just for 1-2 second glance to see whether the spinning cue moves or not. if the cue spins perfectly without noticeable fluctuation, it is straight. This method works well, but, again, it is for one's self only.

I agree that spinning the cue on a lathe is the best possible way to decide.

and yes, wood can move, but no one can say for sure if it will move to straighten up or warp worse.

I used to do the tossing and spinning method but after dropping a few cues I decided not to keep doing that one. :-)

I personally don't even really care if a cue is warped as long as it plays well. As long as I can stroke it and put the tip where I want it every time then I am good to go.

But if I am buying a cue then I want full disclosure on condition with zero ambiguity. Especially with international shipping.
 
If I ship a straight cue in a case inside a box and it is warped I would expect the insurance to pay for it! I use alot of bubble wrap to help keep out the cold and use the fastest service (Next Day) and Insure it! If SW has this strange taper can you put it on a lathe as kevin said? I have no dog in this fight just saying Wilson was a great guy to deal with on several deals! I paid for the fastest shipping and Insured and everything was fine then again we were shipping Tascarella's and Szamboti's and these are well made cues! I have never owned a SW and consider them production cues as they make several 100's a year. I hope everything works out and hopefully it was INSURED so neither takes a loss on this deal!

Not going to happen..most insurance policies have a acts of god loophole that will not cover damages caused by weather, climate etc..now where does responsibility lie?
 
Elevate the butt on the rail and roll it, elevate the shafts on the rail and roll them, then put the cue together and do the same - this works well to identify any issues and validate correctness on all cues I've encountered.......even SWs.
 
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P.S. I also prefer to sight my cues rather than roll them. I find that very few cues will "roll" 100% "straight" but you can see whether it's straight through the core by sighting them. I also don't think that a minor wobble on a cue is a big deal.
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Yeah. Same with snooker cues. Traditional technique doesn't even use a lathe to create the thing in the first place. So, you sight down it, and that's how you tell if it's straight.

I have an early cue by Scott Whisler that I bought a while back. When I got it, I tried rolling it, an got all spun up about the way it rolled, and was going to get my money back and all that... when you looked down the cue, it looked straight, but it rolled weirdly. Turns out that this was a stick with which he had experimented with a compound taper in the butt, and it would never roll like a conventional butt.

I will say, however, that this whole 'Southwest cues have a roll' line of discussion is a little perplexing. I had always been under the impression that, when properly sealed at both ends, and with a quality finish applied, that a good stick would be nearly (99%) impervious to anything outside of outright abuse. No?
 
Elevate the butt on the rail and roll it, elevate the shafts on the rail and roll them, then put the cue together and do the same - this works well to identify any issues and validate correctness on all cues I've encountered.......even SWs.

Yep, that's right. Best way to look at them.

I feel sorry for both parties here....it sucks being on either end of this kind of deal because as much as some people with argue to their death that a cue won't move like this during transit, they absolutely can and have.....especially internationally. No make of cue is immune to this possibility. Been on both ends of this deal before. A few times the cues came back and rolled straight after a few weeks and a few times they did not and the other parties and I worked things out amicably.

In addition.....ivory windows and inlays can crack with extreme (and especially quick) temp and humidity changes, butt sleeves can crack, joint collars, butt caps, etc. If you've been around cues long enough, you've seen or heard about it all.

Was there a stated satisfaction guarantee and/or return policy with the sale? If not, no buyer should enter into a transaction with anyone without one. If a cue is not what you expect upon receipt, you need something in writing to refer to imo. It takes all the ambiguity out of a deal....plain and simple.

And I agree.....insurance won't help this situation. Nothing was physically damaged or lost.

A video would be helpful here. It also appears as if not enough effort has been made by the parties to communicate and come up with a plan to resolve things amicably. It's amazing how cordial communication can usually get things done. A seller should always strive for a happy customer....at least imo.

There's a lot that can be learned from this situation.
 
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Refund time.

Refund the 2500. What is the problem? Seller mentioned wobble. Knew about it, passes it off as straight...refund time. Seller has people standing up for him, seller, don't let them down...do the right thing. This is a brother hood site...not eBay. A seller who would not take this cue back, tells me everything I need to know about him. And if it truly warped in shipping, there's a good chance it will go back to straight in its original climate-back overseas. Again more reason for it to go back home.

If the argument prevails that the seller isn't responsible cuz it warped in shipping...it's setting the tone that any seller can use the argument...making az a great place to unload warped cues with no accountability. I like to buy cues on this forum because I believe that most of the folks...at least the good ones here will stand behind the sale. We need to protect that sanctity.
Good luck buyer and seller. Hope this is resolved quickly.
 
I will say, however, that this whole 'Southwest cues have a roll' line of discussion is a little perplexing. I had always been under the impression that, when properly sealed at both ends, and with a quality finish applied, that a good stick would be nearly (99%) impervious to anything outside of outright abuse. No?

No. What about the 12 inches of handle in the middle? There's no finish or epoxy seal there, just linen wrap that's designed to absorb moisture. Wood, especially uncored wood, isn't impervious....it's a natural product and even under the absolute best of care and perfect preparation can have or develop issues.
 
This is why I would never buy a cue from overseas. It is very possible the cue was 100% straight when he shipped it and moved during the trip from a tropical environment to a temperate one. How someone is supposed to guarantee a cue won't move under those circumstances is beyond me.


I have similar experience with a Mobley,i doubt that the seller sold me a warped cue,after the cue arrive i notice a slight warp in the shaft.....but after a week or two hanging in my house the shaft become normal,straight like new......a cant explain but this is what happen.....sometimes the wood need to recover ...i hiar other are telling the same thing with the cues shipped from Usa to EU.
Who knows........?
 
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