I want to clear something up!

Coy Lee

watchez said:
I get the impression from Baby's Arm that his real problem lies in a playing 'asking' for a jelly. Most likely Baby's Arm has given a jelly to a player before but the offense lies in when a player acts like it is his right. In the few stories that JAM related, the receiving player never came up and asked for it. That is the BIG difference. Compare it to a waitress/bartender asking for a tip. There is no written rule that you should tip 15% for food, 20-30% for alcohol but it is generally done. Now if a waitress asked you where was her tip, you would be offended & most likely not give one. People who are in the restaurant/service industry usually tip more to each other feeling that a good tip will come back to them. Same thing goes in pool.

Here is my heart warming story to add to all of this: I had seen Coy Lee Nicholson play in a few tournaments & was impressed by his play. Before a tournament I approached him & asked if he was going to buy half himself in the calcutta. He told me that he really didn't have the money to do so. I struck up a deal that I would put the money up for his player's half and give him 20%. I believe I paid $150 for 1/2 of Coy Lee and he came in 5-6th place in the tournament and I got back $110. When I tried to offer him the agreed 20% he immediately said that he refused to take it because I had actually lost money. When I tried to let him know that a deal is a deal, he still refused. I am not trying to embarrass Coy Lee but I felt that even though it was only a small amount of money he could've used it. Just goes to show you that not all pool players are alike. Coy Lee didn't know me from Adam except as maybe a recognizable face (and probably still doesn't) and still did what was probably the right thing.

I have played him a couple of times in the old Mcdermott Tour and always had a lot of respect for his game and his personality during the matches we played and every match I watched him play. I heard nothing but good things about him and he did the right thing by not accepting a cut of the $$$$. Nice of you to offer it too.
As far as some people not buying half, most of the time it is due to short funds. Sometimes, if you're looking to make money at a tournament, it's because the amount you sell for, in comparison to the amount you can get back does not justify it. In the second case, if the guy don't want to risk his dough, he don't really deserve a cut of the calcutta.
 
I never buy ½ myself in calcutta's.

I have even gone so far as to ask the announcer of the Calcutta to tell everyone that I won't be participating.
I have had buyers say (after they bought me) they figured I would be buying ½ of it and got upset.
I don't want to go into all the many reasons why I feel this is best for me but I don't think any player is or should be obligated to buy ½ of him/her self.

TY & GL
 
OldHasBeen said:
I have even gone so far as to ask the announcer of the Calcutta to tell everyone that I won't be participating.
I have had buyers say (after they bought me) they figured I would be buying ½ of it and got upset.
I don't want to go into all the many reasons why I feel this is best for me but I don't think any player is or should be obligated to buy ½ of him/her self.

TY & GL

I dont think a player should be obligated to buy half himself. In fact, I prefer that they don't. If I buy someone, it means that I think they have a good chance at winning, thereby making me money. If the player wants half himself then thats fine too. All I'm saying is, either way, don't expect a tip from me because if you think you are going to do well in the tourney then buy yourself, otherwise whomever bought you should get all the money.
 
Well not exactly.....

I do buy people in the calcutta and often hope that they dont buy themselves back. However, if they make me money, bet your ass I am going to give them a taste, tip or gap or whatever you want to call it.

I have given people a taste even if I am only betting on the rail.

If not you are gready bastard in my book.

If I lose, I owe them nothing.

My opionion,

Ken
 
I agree 100%

The Baby's Arm said:
I dont think a player should be obligated to buy half himself. In fact, I prefer that they don't. If I buy someone, it means that I think they have a good chance at winning, thereby making me money. If the player wants half himself then thats fine too. All I'm saying is, either way, don't expect a tip from me because if you think you are going to do well in the tourney then buy yourself, otherwise whomever bought you should get all the money.

Why should a player expect something if they passed up the opportunity to buy ½ of themselves? In a recent Midwest tourney here I went in the Junk Pile (or whatever they call it) of players who don't get the minimum bid.

I think this had a lot to do with bidders knowing I won't buy ½ - and also never knowing how or what I'm thinking.

I came in 5/6 (out of over 100 players) and made a nice Calcutta score for the fellow helping run the tourney and selling cues. I would NEVER ask or think if I had something coming.
As a matter of fact I remember him offering me something and I said, Thanks, but no thanks - You earned it. Oh wait; I did let him buy me a nice cold frosty one.

TY & GL
 
Well, the player is your horse and you are betting on their performance. That is their contribution. If you never give them a jelly roll, you could get that reputation and they may dump you at a certain time - like after they lose their first match, etc.

I don't necessarily think you HAVE to give them a jelly roll, especially if you only won $75, but it is a token of your appreciation that they played hard for you.

I know sometimes I try harder knowing someone is counting on me to win money for them. That extra heat ought to be worth something. lol! I also appreciate it when they play extra hard for me. ;)

Btw, how does everyone get Calcuttas? We got around the gambling commission by saying it is a player auction, but I don't think they like that either. They are really not legal here.
 
Ken_4fun said:
I do buy people in the calcutta and often hope that they dont buy themselves back. However, if they make me money, bet your ass I am going to give them a taste, tip or gap or whatever you want to call it.

I have given people a taste even if I am only betting on the rail.

If not you are gready bastard in my book.

If I lose, I owe them nothing.

My opionion,

Ken


What if you bought 4 guys and 3 of them finish out of the money and the 4th gets 3rd. You're out $800 overall and he is looking for a tip?
 
Each of the 4 were a seperate deal for me...

I would give the 3 nothing.

And I would give a tip to the 4th. I feel I owe that.

I have done it many, many times as I would buy multiples in a tourneyment. I never buy the wild bid(s) and try to cash in the calcutta. If my guys have won anything they have played pretty well.

Thats me.

What really sucks if I have (2) horses and they play each other in the losers side...........Damn thats a downer.


Ken
 
hilla_hilla said:
I drew John in a tournament at Hardtimes, Bellflower back when he used to live out here. I don't know him to well but what I do know is that he is one hell of a player to watch. I think he won the Reno, Sands tournament a few years back, didn't he?

I have played a tournament match with John and also some cheap gambling sessions at Hard Times. It was a real pleasure playing with a talent like his and a standup guy at that. His demurring personality was the reason I had no hesitation in gambling cheaply with him. I suspect that this also flip around as being hard on himself at times when he doesn't rise up to the expectations that he set for himself or from others. In my book, he has accomplished a great deal with the Reno win and his various accomplishments since, and I look forward to following his experience on the IPT whatever it may be.:p
 
I agree with OHB and TBA. A player plays for himself not someone betting on them in the Calcutta. If the person that bought a calcutta amount wants to share his/her winnings with the player, that's their prerogative - end of story.

True story:

A guy was betting on the crap table and a lady was throwing the dice. He started winning quite a bit off of her and was about to give her some jelly as he was about to leave the table and she didn't think he was going to give her anything. She told him that he had a lot of nerve winning all that money on her efforts and not sharing anything with her. He told her that her big mouth and shitty attitude just lost her a couple of hundred bucks.

As TBA said, the main problem is for the player to think they have something coming - they don't. If the bettor wants to share, it's up to them and their conscience.
 
"Jelly Roll"

I have participated in many calcuttas. I think it helps a tourney bring in some extra money and action. It's also great for players like me who aren't capable of snapping off the tourney. Seemed like the only players that have asked me for a jelly roll, were the ones you could never be sure of. Maybe a little on the shady side, you might say. Their was/is a player here in kentucky that I always try to buy. He never buys his half but he plays his heart out for the prize fund. I always give him a bone if he places. Only once did he let someone buy his half. It was a relative and they were pressuring him, wanting his half. He won the tournament and they gave him nothing! Never did it again, and I am happy to say he has won us a lot of money.:)
 
One thing I have never understood is why champions don't buy all of themselves in calcuttas. We always try to buy (and do 99% of the time) ourselves in big golf calcuttas because we think we have a great chance to win. If I were a champion in pool, you could be damn sure that I would buy myself in the calcutta. Who gives a shit if I am only getting 4 to 1 on the money when I am better than anyone else. I have heard Stevie and Bruce use that excuse before and they always win the local tour events (Viking, Southeast, etc...). It seems to me, and I have told them this, that if you are better than anyone in the tourney, then why would you not want to up the stakes. If you think you have the best of any bet, isn't it safe to say that anyone would want to up it? I don't understand the pool player mentality. Then again, with people throwing you "jelly" when you didn't put up anything, I guess I see why players don't buy themselves. If I could take advantage of someone on the rail wanting to pay me for playing just like I would for the normal tourney payout then I guess I would chalk that up to suckerville too.
 
rackmsuckr said:
Well, the player is your horse and you are betting on their performance. That is their contribution. If you never give them a jelly roll, you could get that reputation and they may dump you at a certain time - like after they lose their first match, etc.

I don't necessarily think you HAVE to give them a jelly roll, especially if you only won $75, but it is a token of your appreciation that they played hard for you.

I know sometimes I try harder knowing someone is counting on me to win money for them. That extra heat ought to be worth something. lol! I also appreciate it when they play extra hard for me. ;)

Btw, how does everyone get Calcuttas? We got around the gambling commission by saying it is a player auction, but I don't think they like that either. They are really not legal here.


Most places just ignore it. There are bigger problems out there. But, the more people keep talking about em, someone will drop a dime and someone will get "heat" over it.
The state I live in, there have been 2 aressts and no prosecutions in the pat 41 years. I conduct about 25 of them a year and threads like this make me a bit nervous. A sleeping dog never bites.
 
I never buy ½ myself in calcutta's.

OldHasBeen said:
I don't want to go into all the many reasons why I feel this is best for me ...
I am curious as to what those reasons are, if you were to change your mind.
 
It's been maybe, 8-10 years since I bought half of myself back in a calcutta. My reasoning is that I feel it is bad luck or bad karma. I really can't explain it, that's just how I feel about it. As far as getting a snap from someone who has bought me. I have never and will never ask for a snap. The one's I've been given have been greatly appreciated.
Good story. I had a guy buy me in a calcutta once and he won something like $1100 or so. He didn't even thank me or congratulate me. I thought that was kind of strange to not say "good shooting". Next tournament, he buys me and I win him over $2000. This time he snaps me $200. I thank him and ask him why he did this and he tells me that he had no idea that it was the thing to do until one of his buddies told him it was a nice gesture. Just goes to show ya that not everyone is one the same page or even knows about such things.
 
John… it’s truly been too long.

I know the character witnesses have been abundant… but I fall in to a special category… let’s back up a few years… to when I was 23, a little more immature than I am now, knew nothing of pool, the spectrum of skill, nor how to analyze it. Put succinctly, I was green.

My name’s Truman, I play in Southern California, and I’m about as “C” a player gets. It was 1997, and I was staking this guy named Scotti Morgan, a bonefide goofball by any standard, but, quite a capable player at times nonetheless. Anyway, this guy I had never seen before offered Scotti the 7 ball. At the time, I was “well funded” and thought, “gotta see this.” After all, Dave Hemma had just tried to give this game to Scott and lost. Scotti won their first match up. We laughed as we drove home together feeling as though we stole the $200. The player, whom I later learned the name of, didn’t have much money on him, and swapped numbers with us so we could play again. Four days later on table 8 at hard times, I witnessed some of the best f*cking pool I had ever seen. I didn’t have to see much to know that it was THIS guy I wanted my money on. After all, Scotti is a goofball quite prone to finding a way to not take the money off the light.

Before I continue… I should be candid… I’m more than just an unusual guy – I’m a bit self-righteous, arrogant, and intelligent too. Thus, when I want to make my point, even if it’s not valid, it can still be a difficult argument for my opposition. Not that I don’t have good traits to counterbalance those, but those are some that can definitely annoy people.

For the next three years I staked John. In fact, it was with me, and my B.R. that John first went through Alabama. I had been involved in much of the action he took on over those years, and believe it not ladies and gentlemen, he normally invited me in on the SOFT action, and gave me his best and most candid advice when the action was tough, for instance, some of his earlier matches with Moro. In spite his advice, when I had the cash I normally wanted to experience the thrill of being involved.

I have handed John amounts of money I can’t recall, but certainly up to $5,000, he’s stayed at my house for however long he could tolerate me, and has taken down the cash more times when a critical shot was needed than any other player I have watched first hand. In fact, although this is unrelated, I think John is the most “get there guy” I have ever watched, a testament to not only his skill, but his heart and pressure management.

If ever there was a guy worthy of dumping… it’d be ME. And in all that time, winners and losers, it never even crossed my mind.

Although we live quite far apart, John will always be regarded as one of my most cherished friendships. He’s a GOOD GUY. He says what he believes, and his loyalty is almost self sacrificing… (I’m referencing his relationships with women, too).

I know my bias may be in question, but please let me assure you… my bias would become prejudice had I even a single instance to recall where this man’s integrity was questionable.

John, all the best from California…
 
Truman! LOL.. I knew your name sounded familiar! Taller guy, dark hair, sideburns? I met you when I was traveling down to LA, and I remember you asking me some things about pool when I was living there back in 02'. I think you gave an honest account of yourself. You were arrogant, and very intelligent too.. I thought it was a good combination lol. Yeah.. for me, I have never seen someone with more hand/eye coordination than John... Awesome for sure.
 
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Well, hand - eye coordination, but also spacial perception, depth perception, ice water for blood, acumen, logic, memory, creativity ... the list goes on. A rather fortunate combination of ingredients if you ask me.

Josh, remind me where we met ... and what area you live in.

Added an avatar... that should narrow down who I am.
 
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I had the pleasure to meet John very briefly in Taiwan during the WPC. He was nice enough to join me and my friends for a few drinks. I met him again in the US Open, and he was kind enough to remember my name and shake my hand when he saw me. I was impressed by his attitude.

He strikes me as a very presentable person, who takes good care of himself, and was very articulate and polite.

I cannot really say I know John at all. But from what I have seen, he is one of those players who represents our sports very well.

Life is tough and it ain't easy to play pool for a living. Let's give the pro players a break, shall we?

Richard
 
The Baby's Arm said:
I dont think a player should be obligated to buy half himself. In fact, I prefer that they don't. If I buy someone, it means that I think they have a good chance at winning, thereby making me money. If the player wants half himself then thats fine too. All I'm saying is, either way, don't expect a tip from me because if you think you are going to do well in the tourney then buy yourself, otherwise whomever bought you should get all the money.


I`ll tell you of a little experience I had at a big tourney, for the record I don`t believe in tipping either and the main reason is there is always something going on that the rail is not aware of.

I had no stake in the calcutta at this tournament but I made a lot of extra $$$ on the finals because I knew the outcome in advance and I`ll tell you how. The finals pitted Bustamante against Reyes and 20 minutes before the match started I discovered a little info that most people weren`t aware of. Knowing some of the big spenders in the calcutta it so happened that I knew the guys who bought Bustamante and Reyes in the calcutta. I also discovered that Bustamante bought half of himself but Reyes had chosen not to buy half of himself. Why is this important info????? Anyone who has half a brain and knew this info would know that Bustamante was going to win the match. I placed several bets on the rail and cleaned up(everyone wanted Reyes).
Now here`s the question I pose to all the jelly supporters, If you bought Reyes and took down second in the calcutta, would you have tipped him? If you say yes then you must not like money. He just dumped and cost you first place $$$$$ in the calcutta. This is just one of the many reasons I wouldn`t tip if I win in a calcutta. You never know what really happened.
Some of the examples I`ve seen in this thread are not comparing apples to apples. Throwing a player a walking stick is totally different than tipping from your calcutta winnings. I took all the risk and I will keep all the rewards because I never know if things were on the up and up. This is a sad but true fact when it comes to big tournament pool, the players will do whatever puts the most $$$$$ in their pocket generally speaking. IMO.

George
 
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