Ian Anderson was right all along....

elizabeth said:
Oh no lies here.I never said that they didnt have a World Championship I said they are not involved with the US male players and the UPA does not count as far as the World Championship that they put on is it them or Matchroom.Please I have been around this all the politics Too long and ok the World Championship i will give you but are you sure it provides this big pay out that you think it does?Does the WPA take out its fees from the players winnings and Matchroom then takes out taxes?


It is mathcroom and the WPA working together that puts on the WPC for nine ball, the WPC eight ball is put on strictly by the WPA and matchroom has no involvement in that tournament as far as I know. The WPA fees is paid out of the added monies for the event it is sanctioning, this was discussed earlier in the thread. Matchroom does not take taxes out of the players winnings, I know in some countries tournament winnings are taxed by the government. In the US I believe 30% of money won by a foreign player is taxed by the government.


I hope this answers some of your questions.
 
sniper said:
It is mathcroom and the WPA working together that puts on the WPC for nine ball, the WPC eight ball is put on strictly by the WPA and matchroom has no involvement in that tournament as far as I know. The WPA fees is paid out of the added monies for the event it is sanctioning, this was discussed earlier in the thread. Matchroom does not take taxes out of the players winnings, I know in some countries tournament winnings are taxed by the government. In the US I believe 30% of money won by a foreign player is taxed by the government.


I hope this answers some of your questions.
The US players always have taxes and WPA fees deducted from their prize funds ask the players from the Mosconi cup 06
 
sniper said:
It is mathcroom and the WPA working together that puts on the WPC for nine ball, the WPC eight ball is put on strictly by the WPA and matchroom has no involvement in that tournament as far as I know. The WPA fees is paid out of the added monies for the event it is sanctioning, this was discussed earlier in the thread. Matchroom does not take taxes out of the players winnings, I know in some countries tournament winnings are taxed by the government. In the US I believe 30% of money won by a foreign player is taxed by the government.


I hope this answers some of your questions.
Matchroom does take out taxes from the players earnings and its paid to the Inland Revenue Service,the players then receive a receipt mailed to them later in the year to be filed with their tax returns .Sorry but you are wrong on that one.
 
elizabeth said:
The US players always have taxes and WPA fees deducted from their prize funds ask the players from the Mosconi cup 06
I'm not sure what you're saying here, Elizabeth. Are the US players trying to break the law by not paying taxes? Are they crooks? Any tournament in the US that pays any player more than $600 (or is it $1200?) must file a 1099 with the IRS. If the player cannot provide a US SSN, the tournament must withhold 30% (roughly) as federal tax, and file a different form. Are you asking the tournament management to break the law?
 
Bob Jewett said:
I'm not sure what you're saying here, Elizabeth. Are the US players trying to break the law by not paying taxes? Are they crooks? Any tournament in the US that pays any player more than $600 (or is it $1200?) must file a 1099 with the IRS. If the player cannot provide a US SSN, the tournament must withhold 30% (roughly) as federal tax, and file a different form. Are you asking the tournament management to break the law?
What are you talking about?A post stated that matchroom does not take out taxes and i know for sure that they do and are sent a receipt from the Inland Revenue showing that and yes of course the players should pay taxes no-one ever implied that they should not.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I'm not sure what you're saying here, Elizabeth. Are the US players trying to break the law by not paying taxes? Are they crooks? Any tournament in the US that pays any player more than $600 (or is it $1200?) must file a 1099 with the IRS. If the player cannot provide a US SSN, the tournament must withhold 30% (roughly) as federal tax, and file a different form. Are you asking the tournament management to break the law?
I want to add to the last post that you made and after i read it again it made me realize thats the kind of attitude the players and this sport donot need and to take a comment and completely take it out of text is rude.You actually tried to make it sound i was saying that players should not pay taxes or that taxes should not be reported .Please point out to me where this is posted by me or implied.
 
elizabeth said:
... Please point out to me where this is posted by me or implied.
If you look back at one of your earlier posts -- of which there is a truly amazing number -- I think you will see that your comment about taxes might be interpreted as being against the withholding of them. Lots of players do seem to be against the practice, and I thought you were supporting them. My mistake.
 
I have read this thread over again, and I have to admit that I am having problems getting what Elizabeth wants. As I have asked at least two times, what is your ideas of improvement?

Do you have any at all, or is it just "fun" to complain and be whining about the things that you mean are wrong? (which is that US Pro players gets too little money)
 
Roy Steffensen said:
I have read this thread over again, and I have to admit that I am having problems getting what Elizabeth wants. As I have asked at least two times, what is your ideas of improvement?

Do you have any at all, or is it just "fun" to complain and be whining about the things that you mean are wrong? (which is that US Pro players gets too little money)

What I think Elizabeth is trying to convey -- and I may be wrong -- is that the letter which initiated this thread did not sit right with her. Then there was a great deal of colloquy about the WPA, BCA, pool players benefiting from the organization(s), et cetera.

Speaking as an American, with the player's interests in mind, I do not understand or see any evidence of benefit from the WPA in the U.S., and as far as the BCA goes, as has been stated, their interests lie with its membership, industry members, and rightfully so. There is more investment by the BCA in other pool-related activities than the so-called "professional player."

In the Philippines and many Asian countries, pool is already deemed as a sport, and as such, pool may be lucrative not only for the industry members, but for the players. Economies of scale come into the picture here too. However, I think this may be a RECENT trend, meaning within the past decade. Otherwise, why was there a Filipino Invasion?

Roy, you would know how popular pool is in Europe and England more than I. We all know that snooker had been and maybe still is quite popular in Europe and England, but pocket billiards, I am not so sure. Otherwise, why would Thorsten Hohmann, as one example of a current professional player, desire to live in America? If playing pool was lucrative in Europe, I would think -- and I may be wrong -- that it would be more feasible for a European player to hang their cue where there are the most lucrative tournaments.

Ask 100 young children who Cal Ripken, Jr., is here in America, and then ask them who Earl Strickland is. I think the majority of children would answer correctly who the baseball legend is. I don't think any of them would know who Earl Strickland is. I met a lady from the Philippines here in D.C. recently, and we engaged in conversation. I asked her if she had ever heard of Efren Reyes, and her eyes lit right up, and she did know who he was immediately.

I used to think money was the answer when it came to pool's popularity in America, but after the multi-million-dollar investment of the IPT in pool, tournaments played in exquisite venues with green rooms and excellent playing conditions, pool is the same today as it was before the IPT came to the fore. Nothing has changed, other than some pool players did get to pocket some IPT cash. Yes, I know there are more monies owed at the time of this writing, but I heard it from Francisco Bustamante's mouth that when he pocketed $80,000 in Orlando last December, it was the most money he had ever won in his pool-playing career. I think Johnny Archer stated the same thing when he received $50,000 in Orlando. Winning that kind of dough pre-IPT would require one to attend at least a dozen or more events, and then there are the expenses involved in attending the dozen or more events which can affect the profits and losses.

When Nancy Kerrigan was assaulted by Tanya Harding, ice skating elevated in status as a sport tremendously. There were many who began watching the ice skating shows on TV after this happening. I guess some folks like looking at a train wreck. Nobody I know likes watching emotionless robotic pool players. Folks do enjoy seeing a little human emotion in the game.

America has turned its back on pool. Those within the American pool culture are often pool's harshest critics, as evidenced by this thread. I think for an American player like Earl Strickland, this may seem like a travesty, but, in fact, it is the sad reality of pool in these United States.

JAM
 
JAM said:
In the Philippines and many Asian countries, pool is already deemed as a sport, and as such, pool may be lucrative not only for the industry members, but for the players.
Not really...Everyone talks about the Asian 9-Ball Tour being lucrative:
4 stops a year, 24 player field
1st prize $10k
1st round loser (x16) $750
No expenses paid for..

The San Miguel Asian 9-Ball Tour is just there for brand placement in new territories, the tour itself is unlikely to make any money.. As usual, pool tournaments in Asia follow the same format as their US counterparts, loss making or close to break even at best, still playing for peanuts.

And isn't the 8-ball WPC in the UAE funded by a rich oil sheik?? :)
 
14.1player said:
Not really...Everyone talks about the Asian 9-Ball Tour being lucrative:
4 stops a year, 24 player field
1st prize $10k
1st round loser (x16) $750
No expenses paid for..

The San Miguel Asian 9-Ball Tour is just there for brand placement in new territories, the tour itself is unlikely to make any money.. As usual, pool tournaments in Asia follow the same format as their US counterparts, loss making or close to break even at best, still playing for peanuts.

And isn't the 8-ball WPC in the UAE funded by a rich oil sheik?? :)

You are correct and the money on the Euro Tour isn't that great either although it has been increased twice in recent times as it seems to be growing quickly.

My point is An American Pro Tour doesn't seem to exist anymore. A lot of people didn't like the UPA for various reasons but if it could be revived, get the best tournaments in America under one tour then I'm sure America would be THE place to pool again. Sadly for some reason the American public just doesn't seem interested in pool anymore. Personally I think this has little to do with the attraction of pool and more to do with American society as a whole.
 
TheOne said:
...Sadly for some reason the American public just doesn't seem interested in pool anymore. Personally I think this has little to do with the attraction of pool and more to do with American society as a whole.

I agree with you 100 percent.

Aside from pool's popularity here in the States, the politics behind the scenes is unbelievable, to include the pool MEDIA.

JAM
 
JAM said:
What I think Elizabeth is trying to convey -- and I may be wrong -- is that the letter which initiated this thread did not sit right with her. Then there was a great deal of colloquy about the WPA, BCA, pool players benefiting from the organization(s), et cetera.

Speaking as an American, with the player's interests in mind, I do not understand or see any evidence of benefit from the WPA in the U.S., and as far as the BCA goes, as has been stated, their interests lie with its membership, industry members, and rightfully so. There is more investment by the BCA in other pool-related activities than the so-called "professional player."

In the Philippines and many Asian countries, pool is already deemed as a sport, and as such, pool may be lucrative not only for the industry members, but for the players. Economies of scale come into the picture here too. However, I think this may be a RECENT trend, meaning within the past decade. Otherwise, why was there a Filipino Invasion?

Roy, you would know how popular pool is in Europe and England more than I. We all know that snooker had been and maybe still is quite popular in Europe and England, but pocket billiards, I am not so sure. Otherwise, why would Thorsten Hohmann, as one example of a current professional player, desire to live in America? If playing pool was lucrative in Europe, I would think -- and I may be wrong -- that it would be more feasible for a European player to hang their cue where there are the most lucrative tournaments.

Ask 100 young children who Cal Ripken, Jr., is here in America, and then ask them who Earl Strickland is. I think the majority of children would answer correctly who the baseball legend is. I don't think any of them would know who Earl Strickland is. I met a lady from the Philippines here in D.C. recently, and we engaged in conversation. I asked her if she had ever heard of Efren Reyes, and her eyes lit right up, and she did know who he was immediately.

I used to think money was the answer when it came to pool's popularity in America, but after the multi-million-dollar investment of the IPT in pool, tournaments played in exquisite venues with green rooms and excellent playing conditions, pool is the same today as it was before the IPT came to the fore. Nothing has changed, other than some pool players did get to pocket some IPT cash. Yes, I know there are more monies owed at the time of this writing, but I heard it from Francisco Bustamante's mouth that when he pocketed $80,000 in Orlando last December, it was the most money he had ever won in his pool-playing career. I think Johnny Archer stated the same thing when he received $50,000 in Orlando. Winning that kind of dough pre-IPT would require one to attend at least a dozen or more events, and then there are the expenses involved in attending the dozen or more events which can affect the profits and losses.

When Nancy Kerrigan was assaulted by Tanya Harding, ice skating elevated in status as a sport tremendously. There were many who began watching the ice skating shows on TV after this happening. I guess some folks like looking at a train wreck. Nobody I know likes watching emotionless robotic pool players. Folks do enjoy seeing a little human emotion in the game.

America has turned its back on pool. Those within the American pool culture are often pool's harshest critics, as evidenced by this thread. I think for an American player like Earl Strickland, this may seem like a travesty, but, in fact, it is the sad reality of pool in these United States.

JAM
You are exactly RIGHT JAM
 
elizabeth said:
You are exactly RIGHT JAM
I think what needs to happen is that the public needs to see Earl ,Corey,Johnny and I would say the best top 32 Players from the US then add a few I would say 10 players hand picked from other countries take this group and televise the heck out of them with entertaing the public with character and excitement.The public has to keep seeing them to have interest.Look at Professional Poker where was it just a few years ago?Nobody ever watched and it was rarely on tv but when it became more and more visual the viewer took it from there.There are way too many players in the US and it has to start from a small group and work its way up to a larger field.I hate to say it but in the US people want to see and watch at least one US players as the attention seems to be drawn away when its 2 foreign players playing.I am going by what I hear from the public that they want to see and watch American men playing I guess its only natural.One example of great reviews was the Don Mackey World Championship in Vegas live ESPN Earl vs Efren there were no cut up shots and when returning from commerical several racks had not been played.There are many ways to draw the tv audience and Mackey did prove that with the live airing on ESPN.You have to keep the viewers from changing the channel and losing interest.The is a game of talent and excitement and the public needs to see it that way.
 
Last edited:
elizabeth said:
I think what needs to happen is that the public needs to see Earl ,Corey,Johnny and I would say the best top 32 Players from the US then add a few I would say 10 players hand picked from other countries take this group and televise the heck out of them with entertaing the public with character and excitement.The public has to keep seeing them to have interest.Look at Professional Poker where was it just a few years ago?Nobody ever watched and it was rarely on tv but when it became more and more visual the viewer took it from there.There are way too many players in the US and it has to start from a small group and work its way up to a larger field.I hate to say it but in the US people want to see and watch at least one US players as the attention seems to be drawn away when its 2 foreign players playing.I am going by what I hear from the public that they want to see and watch American men playing I guess its only natural.One example of great reviews was the Don Mackey World Championship in Vegas live ESPN Earl vs Efren there were no cut up shots and when returning from commerical several racks had not been played.There are many ways to draw the tv audience and Mackey did prove that with the live airing on ESPN.You have to keep the viewers from changing the channel and losing interest.The is a game of talent and excitement and the public needs to see it that way.

Yes, yes, yes, Elizabeth. That is EXACTLY right! Well said. :)

I remember hearing about a one-pocket tournament in Maryland. One of the organizers relayed this story to me. ESPN came to televise the match-up, and it was between Nick Varner and a player whose name escapes me at the time of this writing.

After about an hour and a half into the match, ESPN packed up their belongings and told the organizers that the match was too boring and that they were leaving mid-match.

Now, most of us pool fans and enthusiasts, if we were in attendance at that one-pocket tournament in Maryland, would have enjoyed seeing Nick Varner doing his thing. He is, without a doubt, one of the best one-pocket players in the world. However, this type of pool didn't seem to ring a bell with the TV folks, and as such, American TV abandoned pool at that time.

Today, the pool coverage we see on TV is always AFTER THE FACT. There were some great TV broadcasts that I did enjoy seeing, but I must admit, there were some TV broadcasts that I couldn't watch in their entirety because they were, quite frankly, boring. And I like pool.

JAM
 
jay helfert said:
And you think this was the goal of the IPT? At this point in time, the IPT is a tour in name only. It has come and gone. The train left the station long ago and no one was on it, except KT and Dumbo.
Come on Jay you have been around this for years and I know that you know what the players want and need and its not the WPA.Come on the politics associated with that has been a train wreck over and over again.Jay you have put on many great events the best I felt was in Burbank did you ever receive any benefits or know players that have received benefits from the WPA?
 
This thread started with some good ideas, then the flaming creeped in as usual, but now seems like its settled down. To think only about the pros when talking about the game is not looking ahead.
If one looks at any successful sport like a successful education you need the "full monty". Pool without a bottom, middle and top, IE elementary, high school and college.....does not have the ability to show enough value for a person or a business to want to pursue. The sport needs the proper structure and education process of getting from the bottom to the top to have value.
In the states we toss a little money here, a little there, some things stick others come and go and growth seems more related to population and condensing events than anything else.
I look at our sport like a piece of corn, but here in the states all we do is pick it. We don't tend to its needs from the time the seed is planted, we just hope for the best, probably why we never get any yield.
The WPA is a very small farmer, maybe they could do better, but they are the only one for now. Nothing in life starts out perfect, except the seed.
 
elizabeth said:
I think what needs to happen is that the public needs to see Earl ,Corey,Johnny and I would say the best top 32 Players from the US then add a few I would say 10 players hand picked from other countries take this group and televise the heck out of them with entertaing the public with character and excitement.The public has to keep seeing them to have interest.Look at Professional Poker where was it just a few years ago?Nobody ever watched and it was rarely on tv but when it became more and more visual the viewer took it from there.There are way too many players in the US and it has to start from a small group and work its way up to a larger field.I hate to say it but in the US people want to see and watch at least one US players as the attention seems to be drawn away when its 2 foreign players playing.I am going by what I hear from the public that they want to see and watch American men playing I guess its only natural.One example of great reviews was the Don Mackey World Championship in Vegas live ESPN Earl vs Efren there were no cut up shots and when returning from commerical several racks had not been played.There are many ways to draw the tv audience and Mackey did prove that with the live airing on ESPN.You have to keep the viewers from changing the channel and losing interest.The is a game of talent and excitement and the public needs to see it that way.

Now we are talking Elizabeth! Great post! I totally agree with you here!!! Keep it this way, and if more joins this discussion with ideas of improvement it can only be good!!!

JAM: The reason for Hohmann I do not know. My first thought was because of the roadplayers, but since Thorsten isn't gambling it ain't that, so guess it is because there are so many major tournaments over there that the best players should compete on + a lot of smaller tournaments, that all in all it is probably cheaper to live in the States compared to Germany.

In Europe there is 7 Eurotour stops (pricemoney increasing to 50 000 € in total from February), then there are Weert Open and some other large tournaments that have been for some years. Lately there has now popped up tournaments like the Norwegian 9-ball Challenge, 8-ball Battle of Scandinavia, EPT 8-ball Tour (6 stops) UK 10-ball tour (6 stops), so the tournaments with higher pricemoney are increasing in Europe too, so COME BACK THORSTEN!!! ;)

Btw: Looking forward to see Thorsten Hohmann play live for the first time in my life, at The 8-ball Battle of Scandinavia in 2 weeks.
 
Island Drive said:
This thread started with some good ideas, then the flaming creeped in as usual, but now seems like its settled down. To think only about the pros when talking about the game is not looking ahead.
If one looks at any successful sport like a successful education you need the "full monty". Pool without a bottom, middle and top, IE elementary, high school and college.....does not have the ability to show enough value for a person or a business to want to pursue. The sport needs the proper structure and education process of getting from the bottom to the top to have value.
In the states we toss a little money here, a little there, some things stick others come and go and growth seems more related to population and condensing events than anything else.
I look at our sport like a piece of corn, but here in the states all we do is pick it. We don't tend to its needs from the time the seed is planted, we just hope for the best, probably why we never get any yield.
The WPA is a very small farmer, maybe they could do better, but they are the only one for now. Nothing in life starts out perfect, except the seed.

Wow! That was a good read! :p

Coming from D.C., if I were to liken it to politics, you got the conservatives and the liberals. I think in pool, the Independent Party represents the majority. How to get the Independent Party to join forces with the conservatives or the liberals, though, is the question. There is nothing to lure an Independent to become a conservative or a liberal.

JAM
 
Roy Steffensen said:
JAM: The reason for Hohmann I do not know. My first thought was because of the roadplayers, but since Thorsten isn't gambling it ain't that, so guess it is because there are so many major tournaments over there that the best players should compete on + a lot of smaller tournaments, that all in all it is probably cheaper to live in the States compared to Germany...

The first time I ever had the opportunity to speak to Thorsten Hohmann in person was at the Skins event in Atlantic City a few years ago. He was in Keith's group, consisting of him, Luc Salvas, and Rodney Morris. What a nice draw for Keith. :o

At any rate, I was curious about the German player, as his name was beginning to make headlines everywhere. I asked him what he thought about competing in American events compared to European events, reading in the pool media that he was going to be staying in Florida for a spell. He kindly replied to my inquiry, stating that there were more events here in the U.S. at that time, providing him opportunities to strut his stuff. Looks like it paid off! :D

The German players are so disciplined, quite a different breed of player than, say, the Filippinos and Americans. I respect their training, which they all seem to take very seriously. :)

Of course, I'm always going to be rooting for an American to win, but if it can't be an American, then I've got my favorites. :p

JAM
 
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