Very well put, Jay.
And today is the Southern Classic, in july we'll have the same conversation about the CSI events... In october about the World Pool Masters and US Open, and so on and so on...
If Bonus Ball fails...
- Thread starter Roger Long
- Start date
Very well put, Jay.
And today is the Southern Classic, in july we'll have the same conversation about the CSI events... In october about the World Pool Masters and US Open, and so on and so on...
Hi Jay!
First off, as I've said many times, you're one of my favorites in the booth. I love Pool Wars and I highly respect you.
Couple quick questions:
As a former room owner, what would the lease be worth on a building in Vegas the size of the Bonus Ball venue?
From start to finish, how long would the Ultimate 10 ball, big foot tournament and Southern Classic take?
If you ran Bonus Ball, what would you do differently? (Without changing the game, etc) Would you accommodate the schedules of other tournaments and keep paying the bills on a building to not be used? (I know my 'work' doesn't schedule me around being able to attend the SBE or other events, I have to make a choice. Make money or go to a tournament. Because I have a steady income, it's a lot easier for me to choose the tournament because I know for sure when I get back I can always make more money. )
Some tough questions there. First of all I don't know the size of the building they are using or the prevailing market rates in Vegas currently for commercial property. I'm guessing they are paying about $1/sq.ft. per month. So about $5,000 a month for 5,000 square feet.
Ultmate 10 Ball is June 17-20. The entire Southern Classic including the Bigfoot Challenge is June 21-29. So 13 days total for all three.
The last question is very hard for me to answer since I don't run Bonus Ball. I probably would chose a more recognizable game first of all. Second I would do my best not to conflict with existing events and force my players to chose one or the other. More so because many of my players stand a good chance of making some good money in these events. And last I would go out of my way to promote and create interest among the pool crowd. Why not, that's just good business. Tell ten people and they tell twenty more and so on. Word of mouth can be your strongest advertiser. To deny that is folly!
Last edited:
What, is there an echo in here? You can post one time, and I'll still read it. You don't need to the same message twice.
I also agree with the location. I am not sure who is advising the owner of Bonus Ball, but to date, he has been getting poor advice. This is evident by who is responding on this forum as well as how the logistics of Bonus Ball have been unfolding. This is obvious for all to see. I don't have to spell it out.
And don't feel like the lone soldier with the reps. I can't count them right now because I'm in a message window, but I have received at least a dozen green on my Bonus Ball posts. I did receive one red from a member who wrote "From Canada!" Although nobody wants to have red rep, this one did give me a chuckle.
I don't post on AzBilliards to get greenies, FWIW. I post to express my thoughts -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. I realize everyone won't agree with what I have to say, just like I don't agree with some of what others say.
I don't care if Bonus Ball is Canadian, Nigerian, Colombian, Norwegian, Russian, or Chinese. I resent a Canadian company coming on American soil and disrupting the American pool industry in this manner, an extremely fragile American pool industry. If Bonus Ball was Russian, I'd be writing the same damn words, just substitute "Canadian" with "Russian."
If Bonus Ball fails -- I feel like I should write "when Bonus Ball fails," but suffice it to say the damage will have already been done with valued American promoters. Some may return to the tournament trail and keep on promoting. Others, like Greg Sullivan, who was in the midst of creating a tour in four major cities in the United States, week-long pool meccas for players of all caliber, may decide it just ain't worth it anymore.
There comes a time in pool when it's not really about the money. Keith would still be out there playing pool every day, going to two, three, and four events a month, but it was the lifestyle that was killing him. When I say "killing," I mean that literally, but Keith is a different kind of player than most out there. While everybody else is drinking out of clear bottles at the tournaments, Keith's bottle was the only one that was brown.
It's not an easy racket, this pool, no matter where you hail from. The money payouts are so poor, I just couldn't imagine traveling from afar to a country, incurring all the expenses, only to get knocked out of the tournament first round. I totally understand why Fabio banged his head over and over again on the corner of a Gold Crown at the SBE after losing his first match.
If Bonus Ball fails a la IPT, you can be sure that this will cause a loss of pro-caliber players around the world. Dave Matlock, Scotty Townsend, Jon Kuchero, Jimmy Fusco, Buddy Hall, Dee Adkins, Brian Saleh from England, Keith, and I'm sure I'm missing a few other names, they never came back to the tournament trail after the IPT sank.
Last edited:
Yeah I saw that. I just thought it was a perk with Gold. You get two posts.
Did you read CJ's post above yours. The players are turning out but it doesn't sound like the spectators are, even with free door.
Thats kind of sad as well.
From CJ.
Makes sense too. Gives a few others a chance to move up. And as long as the Pros are happy playing BB and a steady check.
Still, I am with you as far as the stepping on toes goes. Yeah, I'm a poet too. (Toes Goes)
I don't think thats a fair deal and not planned well, or maybe it was planned that way. Stranger things have happened.
Back to the Dungeon. Still have cues to do for tomorrow. The life of a Vampire sucks a bit sometimes but I did get the garden in today.
Did you read CJ's post above yours. The players are turning out but it doesn't sound like the spectators are, even with free door.
Thats kind of sad as well.
From CJ.
Makes sense too. Gives a few others a chance to move up. And as long as the Pros are happy playing BB and a steady check.
Still, I am with you as far as the stepping on toes goes. Yeah, I'm a poet too. (Toes Goes)
I don't think thats a fair deal and not planned well, or maybe it was planned that way. Stranger things have happened.
Back to the Dungeon. Still have cues to do for tomorrow. The life of a Vampire sucks a bit sometimes but I did get the garden in today.
Last edited:
What!? Bass fishing!? Bass fishing? You mean to tell me that bass fishing is a freaking sport!? With sponsors and air time on TV and PROFESSIONAL bass fishermen - making money - by bass fishing!? Jesus H. Christmas, you have got to be kidding me! But wait, it's almost entirely participant based too, is it not? How in heaven's freaking name does BASS FISHING do better than pool!? Makes me want to go out and get drunk (to quote Mark Griffin).
I'm going to start a new thread: "Know Why I Know Bonus Ball Will Fail,? Because a Bass Boat Seats More People Than Their Bleachers!"
Fatz
PS. Next you'll be telling me that ESPN broadcasts spelling bees. Sheeeeez.
Jay,
Didn't Mark Griffin offer the BB guys $13,000 to cover their rent if they shut down for the days of the competing events? If so, BB is paying much more than $5000 per month. May have covered some staff salaries as well. Not sure
Regardless, this is really a sad state of affairs. CSI and Diamond events have been on the calendar for over a year. Reminds me of Charlie Williams scheduling a UPA event the same weekend as a Turning Stone Classic. Sure made short work of Hilton Hotels sponsoring pool events! Do the "pro" players have a big enough magazine to keep playing Russian Roulette? It only takes one bullet. Or does it?
Lyn
Worst part is Bass Pro Shops has enough income to sponsor a NASCAR Sprint Cup Team. Must be a few folks out there actually fishing for Bass :grin:
!Strange but true. Even our small local market has several hundred pool players playing nearly every day. Not a "pro" player among them! They do know who the Black Widow is though.
Lyn
There is no possible chance this is the last you'll have to say on this matter
That's ok though, these things are meant to be discussed.
AZ would be a ghost town if we only talked about people after walking in their shoes.
I don't have to be a director to comment about a movie,
and I don't need to be a promoter to discuss bonus ball scheduling.
Did I say anything factually wrong, or is it fair to say we're talking about major events
being cancelled over hurt feelings?
And that to me falls under "fundamental problem with pool". Its success apparently hinges on
the kindness of a few individuals running charity orphanages for pro players,
so other promoters must be careful not to hurt their feelings by scheduling events on their own timeframe,
and players must be careful not to hurt their feelings by playing in events that are a safer bet financially.
Not true
I seen some guys playing the other day after seeing me and buddy playing some bonus ball for 200 a game. Granted they didn't have a damn clue what was going on but they were trying. Lol. Probably a rare occurrence though.
I seen some guys playing the other day after seeing me and buddy playing some bonus ball for 200 a game. Granted they didn't have a damn clue what was going on but they were trying. Lol. Probably a rare occurrence though.
Last edited:
No wonder bass fishing is so popular
The other day I lost the biggest lake trout I've ever hooked.
I forgot my net, and I was just using No. 8 hooks.
These guys on TV would of never dogged the ****ing net
Wow. $15-25/sq.ft. depending on location here.
I agree, Jay, not only do the top players in all sports make the most money, they should. It would be nice, though, if the, say, 15th best pool player in the U.S. made a little more at tournaments than they currently do.
I know that there has been ample opportunity for this to happen and in each instance the players themselves derail things before it can gain the traction needed to grow and move forward (it must be harder for some of you pioneers of creating opportunity to watch this repeat itself than it is for me and it annoy me to no end).
I cannot help but wonder what would the prize structure for the Los Angeles Open, and other tours of that day, look like today if it had not been deep sixed by Don Mackey (I do not think they would have followed him alone) getting a pied piper to lead the rest of the pro’s down the yellow brick road 20 years ago? We will never know but in today’s dollars it would be among the richest of them all.
I suspect that we both have an idea as to the business “model” required to make BB fly and do not differ on opinion there very much. I’m curious as to how patient the money is.
One thing that we may not agree on is that I think the attempt by Larry C to create a game that is more interesting to the casual, less avid, fan is a move in the right direction. That it has not already happened in another form using traditional games......well, I blame you (just kidding) and other tournament operators for not leveraging some of the successful moves in that direction. Your idea of a single elimination, two out of three sets is an example of more interesting. The alternate break race to 5 used in the U.S. Bar box is another. While table size, the 10 foot table, can add to the suspense it is not the answer but it does make it more interesting.
I love watching the Bigfoot challenge because it is single elimination (adds pressure) on a 10 ft table with tight pockets (more pressure) and the purse is substantial.
About three years ago, when I first heard of Johnny Archer being anointed the pied piper for BB I was extremely negative and public about it. I thought that he was starting down a road without fully looking at the destination or even understanding if it was desirable to go there. I subsequently received a note from Barry B, who was VP of BB at the time, and was struck by how well he presented his viewpoint (I did not agree with it but appreciated his honest style of debate). It was enough for me to decide to become familiar with the rules, watch some matches and keep an open mind.
My mind closed somewhat, when I saw that there was a chance that some of the players that I would enjoy seeing at Turning Stone might not show because of BB. I went anyway and must say that watching the pied piper (who obviously had no problem getting out of any BB commitment) try to work his magic (unsuccessfully) on Shane was worth being there in itself. It does make me wonder if the pied piper has any more of a position in this organization than the rest of the players.
I do hope that it was the construction delays that caused any scheduling problems and was not a deliberate attempt at sabotaging other events. In his radio interview Larry C said that it was not. I’ll take him at his word and if BB survives past the first season I will judge the worth of that word on the schedule set out for season two.
Like anyone else, I am influenced by self interest as a fan, an avid supporter of the sport and a fair to middling player but I am also influenced by a sincere desire, as are you, to see the sport start to grow again at the professional level.
Jerry
In my opinion, the top 200 pool players in the country need to be able to make a living at pool. I'll say #200 needs to be making $50,000 per year. That would be my idea of an indication that pro pool was healthy.
Not saying it's going to happen, just saying I would love to see it.
Fatz
I think your quoting an annual rate, not monthly. $15 a foot will get you in Beverly Hills on Rodeo Drive. :thumbup:
Rental price, per month, not a purchase.
Would be nice.