Inside English misses!

[ENGLISH!]

I shoot inside by "feel" now as well. Takes A LOT of practice, but once you get it down its allllll good ! You know when you approach the shot just how much Inside to give it. There are a few distinct advantages to using "inside" , .... I adopted it when I noticed a short-stop using it quite often and he rarely misses !

I use it about 60-70 % of the time now, and I usually pot just over 80 % on average.

There are times you don't want to use "inside," and that is what is screwing me up now. :frown:

I've been using outside & inside english for more than 40 years. After some time shooting with CJ's TOI, it started to mess with 'my' feel outside english once in while & I was flabbergasted when I would miss what was a fairly easy shot when using 'my' outside english.

I finally figured out that I was aligning more as I would for using TOI while trying to use outside english. Once I realised it, it is just a matter of making sure I get the alignment correct for what I am doing. By correct alignment, I really mean what part of the cue ball to use as a sight line, through 'center' for TOI or from the inside edge for outside english.

I hope something I said here helps or at least gives you something to consider.

Best,
Rick

 

[onepocketron]

Set up a dozen cut shots and banks......play all these shots for 20-30 minutes using nothng but center ball........just use center for every shot.......now change.

Play all these very same shots using inside English.......start with 1/4- 1/2 tip only....shoot the very same shots.....make it easy on your self....gradually make the shots harder and harder and find your throw difference using 1/4, 1/2 and 1 tip of inside English....you'll get the hang of it in 90 mins and you'll never ask this question again.

Yep, start with easy shots till you own them, then move on to more difficult shots till you own them as well. In my view practice is not just hitting balls, it's working on your weaknesses, until they become strengths. Start with easy shots and progressively get more difficult until they seem like hangers.

 

[Saturated Fats]

Inside at half the table length or less is one of my strong suits. Not sure if this is a "system" or what but it absolutely works for me. Aim THROUGH the side of the cue ball where you plan to hit it to the contact point on the OB. Goes in every time for me.

This doesn't work on long shot as well since the CB has time to curve more.

This was taught to me by one of the more senior instructors. The way he put it is to "point or aim your tip at the desired contact point on the object ball". And I agree about it working much better at close range.

 

[SeabrookMiglla]

for me

i think that inside is easier than outside on many shots. it use to be the other way around, but now i find myself shying away from using outside.

but i also do a lot of practice shots with inside because that use to be my weakness, now it has developed into a strength- so i guess this means i will have to start practicing outside english shots. - a viscous cycle...

 

[Colin Colenso]

BHE for Inside Engish

Perhaps the main beauty of Back Hand English (BHE) is that the frictional throw factor is very often the same for inside english shots as it is for medium speed rolling pots. The main exception is fullish angle shots at slow speeds, where one needs to align for a wider angle cut before pivoting than for thinner pots at above slow speeds.

Of course, one has to be familiar with the pivot point of their cue and the effective pivot point depending upon length, speed and elevation.

Accelerating through the CB is a bogus myth. The CB only responds to the velocity of the cue, not it's acceleration.

 

[JohnnyP]

Colin:

What happened to all the videos you used to have on your site?

We miss you, bro.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Not since learning to use Backhand English. Now I rarely miss because of inside english. In fact I have to be careful not to use too much and lose shape.

John, this ranks right up there, as one of your most 'unusual' and outlandish claims !..(but, I see you are not alone, in your thinking)..I have never met any top pool player, worth his salt, who did not avoid inside English, unless absolutely necessary..(well, except maybe one ) They all MUCH prefer running, or center ball English.. Unless it is a simple close up shot, (or very close to the hole) most smart player's will actually take a longer more circuitous route, (to achieve position) than risk using inside English.

If I had you on a table, I could prove this to you in ten minutes...If you really believe that BHE, or CTE, TOI, (or whatever) will change this AT ALL, you will never reach your full potential..I cannot believe Shuffert, or Houle, or any of your other mentors, will not concur with what I'm saying !.. I sincerely mean this in YOUR best interest !

SJD

 

[SJDinPHX]

Major difference !

That is actually one of my other half's *best" shots, using inside english. I'll ask him for some tips or maybe have him post. He's uses a lot of inside, from what I have been told. :grin-square:

Jen...There is a world of difference between being able to use IE effectively, and 'preferring' to use it !...I'm quite sure, if you ask Keith, he will agree with my findings. (post #47)..Very few top players, given a choice, will 'prefer' using IE, especially on ANY of the longer, more difficult shot !

 

[ps611846]

John, this ranks right up there, as one of your most 'unusual' and outlandish claims !..(but, I see you are not alone, in your thinking)..I have never met any top pool player, worth his salt, who did not avoid inside English, unless absolutely necessary..(well, except maybe one ) They all MUCH prefer running, or center ball English.. Unless it is a simple close up shot, (or very close to the hole) most smart player's will actually take a longer more circuitous route, (to achieve position) than risk using inside English.

If I had you on a table, I could prove this to you in ten minutes...If you really believe that BHE, or CTE, TOI, (or whatever) will change this AT ALL, you will never reach your full potential..I cannot believe Shuffert, or Houle, or any of your other mentors, will not concur with what I'm saying !.. I sincerely mean this in YOUR best interest !

SJD

You must be kidding. Or maybe you don't realize how often they use it. They play shots with inside that look like center ball. But they are not. And of course inside is more important than outside. And of course outside doesn't mean "running" for every shot. Inside can be "running" spin for some shots........

 

[Icon of Sin]

It wasnt the throw that took me a while to get down, it was the squirt/deflection/whateveryoucallit. I know it still happens when using outside english, but I think Ive subconsciously learned to adjust to it. Once I figured out roughly how much the cueball squirts off the tip I was able to adjust from there and balls started going in.

 

[SJDinPHX]

You must be kidding. Or maybe you don't realize how often they use it. They play shots with inside that look like center ball. But they are not. And of course inside is more important than outside. And of course outside doesn't mean "running" for every shot. Inside can be "running" spin for some shots........

Sorry sir, I am not 'kidding'..I 'realize' and comprehend, all facets of high level pool !...If John Barton, or Billy Incardona, would care to comment on my qualifications, you may be quite surprised. Here is just one casual comment....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4854515&postcount=4

There are many more comments herein, by VERY knowledgable players..Darren came to me for lessons, (from England) about 5-6 years ago, before he had ever played any one pocket at all ! ...What might your qualifications be ?

Respectfully,

SJD (Dick Mc Morran)

PS..Don't ask CJ's opinion, he wants everyone to think the world 'thrives' on inside english..(aka, 'TOI')

 

[ps611846]

Sorry sir, I am not 'kidding'..I 'realize' and comprehend, all facets of high level pool !...If John Barton would care to comment (honestly) on my qualifications, you may be a little surprised. Here is just one casual comment....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4854515&postcount=4

There are many more, by VERY knowledgable players...What might 'your' qualifications be ?

Respectfully,

SJD (San Jose Dick)

I know that inside can make the difference between players. And knowledgable players use it to control the angles and make the game easier. Saying that pro players try to avoid inside spin is completely wrong in my opinion. Because they would not play at pro level with this kind of thinking.

Respectfully

Panagiotis

 

[dr_dave]

Perhaps the main beauty of Back Hand English (BHE) is that the frictional throw factor is very often the same for inside english shots as it is for medium speed rolling pots. The main exception is fullish angle shots at slow speeds, where one needs to align for a wider angle cut before pivoting than for thinner pots at above slow speeds.

Of course, one has to be familiar with the pivot point of their cue and the effective pivot point depending upon length, speed and elevation.

Accelerating through the CB is a bogus myth. The CB only responds to the velocity of the cue, not it's acceleration.

Excellent post (as always)!

If people want to learn more about any of the topics Colin mentioned, video demonstrations (including some of Colin's), instructional articles, and other supporting resources can be found here:

back-hand (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE)

how to find your cue's natural pivot length

effects of speed, spin, cut angle, and cue elevation on squirt, swerve, and throw

inside english effects

stroke acceleration effects

Colin, it is good to see you on the forum again,
Dave

 

[Ak Guy]

What I heard

I heard the thing that set Efren apart from other players years ago was his mastery of inside English. Heck ya got me as I suck at it.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I know that inside can make the difference between players. And knowledgable players use it to control the angles and make the game easier. Saying that pro players try to avoid inside spin is completely wrong in my opinion. Because they would not play at pro level with this kind of thinking.

Respectfully

Panagiotis

Mr. Panagiotis, PLEASE re-read all my posts on the subject !..Nowhere did I say there were NOT certain shots that require IE !...If the shot called for it, I can (or could) use it very well myself.. I'm over 80 now, and long retired.

My statements simply point out, that almost ALL good players actually avoid it, whenever possible...Some handle it better than others, but it never "makes the game easier". That is why most beginners struggle with it so much...It is simply a necessary component of moving the cue ball around...On certain shots, it does become a necessity.

I am enjoying this healthy debate with you, but apparently you are not prepared to accept my take on this subject..You might ask Cardone, Frost, Buddy Hall, Shane, Orcullo, or any other top 'player'..It is simply a very common concencus..Sorry, but I am just trying to improve your mistaken impression on this subject.

Again. Respectfully,

SJD

 

[ps611846]

Mr. Panagiotis, PLEASE re-read all my posts on the subject !..Nowhere did I say there were NOT certain shots that require IE !...If the shot called for it, I can (or could) use it very well myself.. I'm over 80 now, and long retired.

My statements simply point out, that almost ALL good players actually avoid it, whenever possible...Some handle it better than others, but it never "makes the game easier". That is why most beginners struggle with it so much...It is simply a necessary component of moving the cue ball around...On certain shots, it does become a necessity.

I am enjoying this healthy debate with you, but apparently you are not prepared to accept my take on this subject..You might ask Cardone, Frost, Buddy Hall, Shane, Orcullo, or any other top 'player'..It is simply a very common concencus..Sorry, but I am just trying to improve your mistaken impression on this subject.

Again. Respectfully,

SJD

No problem, just different opinions. You think that inside should be avoided because it is "dangerous" and you can miss the shot. The pro player learns how to be fearless at the table and he can make any shot. Earl Strickland talks about FEAR OF SHOOTING SOME SHOTS in one of his videos. It's what keeps you down giving you the illusion that you are on the "safe path". You are not. You are just making things difficult because of FEAR.

You have to learn some difficult techniques to open up your game and make it easier. That's why this game is so tough.

Again. Respectfully

Panagiotis

 

[SJDinPHX]

Ps..to Mr. PS

Mr. P...I am not big on the 'science guys', and even less on the 'aiming sytem' gang (mob, herd, pick one )..But Patrick covered it pretty well a while back !

Why are inside-english shots more difficult for some people?

It's a combination of things:

1. You use it less often (partly because you're not as good with it).
2. You use it for different (often more difficult) shots.
3. You use different spin with it (usually high vs. usually center or low).
4. You hit it at a different speed (usually harder).
5. It's less self-correcting.

LATE EDIT; I alway's played with less "fear" than Earl..(I just didn't shoot as straight ) Earl's head is shaped different than most people, he has a little 'savant' in him !.. But put my same questions (re; IE) to him !..Even when I was well past my prime, he wanted no part of me, in a safety game like one pocket ! (ask him )

 

[ps611846]

I am not big on the 'science guys', and even less on the 'aiming sytem' gang (mob, herd, etc)..But Patrick covered it pretty well a while back !

Covered it pretty well ????? "Self correcting" ??????? You can't be serious !!!!!!!

 

[SJDinPHX]

Covered it pretty well ????? "Self correcting" ??????? You can't be serious !!!!!!!

Nope, that's the MOST obvious fact !..Number 3 is also true... (Did you miss my 'late edit' last post ? )

PS..Mr. P, are you a "TOI" convert ?..If you are, I shall respectfully discontinue this debate ! Thanks, its been fun

 

[nobcitypool]

I posed this question to Stevie Moore recently. "What percentage of shots do you and most professionals apply English to." Stevie told me point blank "none if I don't have to. " Stevie said he only uses English when he inherits a tough shot from his opponent or got out of line. He said if you're smart and good enough to create the right angles, you rarely need English. What I should have clarified more carefully is what Stevie regarded as English. I'm not sure he regards 1/4 or 1/2 tip as English. It was clear he felt strongly about avoiding English of more than one tip.

I was watching an Alex vs Earl match earlier today I saw each of them miss a relatively easy shot in the first 3 games where they were clearly applying inside English. I think SJD is dead on with his assessment and he has the background and pedigree to know better than most. I agree that spin can make it easier to move the cb around the table but it also adds a variable to the aiming that will result in some misses. Referencing CJ is irrelevant as he is trying to sell dvd's. If you're buying into his TOI and zen stuff, having a rational conversation with you is impossible anyway.