Instructors that won't tell you what speed they are

[WilleeCue]

People say the same thing about cue makers.
They think only a top rated player could know how to make a custom cue.
Just like teaching it is all about knowledge.

If your instructor is has the knowledge to isolate your weaknesses and coach you to improve on them then he is doing his job.

And just like cues some will feel right and some will not.
You will know after a few lessons if your instructor and you are a match up.

 

[pdcue]

Right, I agree.

But if you ask a pool instructor what speed they play at, they should answer you.

Also, in baseball, I believe that hitting and pitching instructors were former Major League players. And they examine mechanics and all that, but they also scout out the opposing hitters/pitchers and formulate game plans to exploit their weaknesses.

You have already answered your own question.

I think it is pretty obvious at this point that many people
don't feel an instructor must/should reveal his 'true speed'
and, you refuse to accept that opinion.

My best guess is you would not be satisfied with instruction
from any less than a pro-level player, and that is what
you should seek for yourself - continuing to insist on some
right-to-know clause for instructors won't change anyones mind.
It may cause you to loose a good oportunity tho.

Dale

 

[Jen_Cen]

You have already answered your own question.

I think it is pretty obvious at this point that many people
don't feel an instructor must/should reveal his 'true speed'
and, you refuse to accept that opinion.

My best guess is you would not be satisfied with instruction
from any less than a pro-level player, and that is what
you should seek for yourself - continuing to insist on some
right-to-know clause for instructors won't change anyones mind.
It may cause you to loose a good oportunity tho.

Dale

I don't know, many also feel that an instructor SHOULD disclose his speed if asked directly. Why try to duck the question? The paying customer has a fair right to ask.

And no, all I require is that the instructor play at a higher speed than me. B at least. I don't want someone who played for 30 years and never figured out how to advance beyond C.

 

[HouseMan]

have any instructors on here ever declined teaching someone because they got the feeling that the pupil may be a pain-in-the-ass and not worth the trouble?

 

[cubc]

125th!

9 pages

 

[ironman]

You want a good instructor who can really play?

You need look no further than Mark Wilson...

http://www.playgreatpool.com/

He played in the Mosconi Cup two different years.

The day I was at his place, Jeanette Lee came to shoot straight pool and have him work on her stroke...

How's that?

Flex

I agree with you here and what little I've heard, he comunicates very well.

Another is Charlie {Hillbilly} Bryant. When I witnessed this Iwas amazed at his knowledge obviously, but what impressed me more was his passion, and his tolerance and patience. He wants to get his point across and can state it several different ways. I have seen him give one hour lessons that have stretched into 2-3 hours at no charge.

I have the utmost respect for his game and ability but I have decided that he is an even better teacher.

There is however a problem with him. Thisredneck is the only person I've met who can make the word "Bet", sound like a 3 syllable word.

 

[Blackjack]

have any instructors on here ever declined teaching someone because they got the feeling that the pupil may be a pain-in-the-ass and not worth the trouble?

I have... and I know that I am not alone.

When someone comes to me, I am there to pass along knowledge, to be as helpful as I can. I am there to detect any weaknes and come up with solutions to turn those weaknesses into strengths. I am not there to be evaluated, the student is. If you're there to evaluate me, or to gage my speed, your wasting my time and your money.

I'm not one to put up with any attitude either. You either have faith in my abilites as an instructor, or you should seek the assitance of somebody else that will put up with your attitude. I don't have time for it.

My methods work for those that work hard. I can't and won't teach you everything I am capable of teaching you in one class session. If you take one class and never return, that says more about you than it does about me. The first "class" I had with Cisero Murphy I was not allowed to say or ask anything - I was told to sit down, shut up and watch. I didn't hit a ball until the 5th session and when I did he told me to sit back down for another 3 sessions. Afterwards, I felt as if I was being treated like a baby, and I vowed to never return, but something in my gut told me that I had to go back. For a stretch of time, I felt as if I was wasting my time until I finally realized that at the end of 2 weeks I had learned more than I had in the last 2 years - and I ran 60 balls - easily. Something worked.


It comes down to how bad you want to learn and what you're willing to go through to learn it. If you go into it with an ego and require more of the instructor than you require of yourself - you'll keep spinning your wheels. That's been my experience in doing this for the past 20+ years.

 

[ShootingArts]

yes and no

have any instructors on here ever declined teaching someone because they got the feeling that the pupil may be a pain-in-the-ass and not worth the trouble?

Never played formal pool instructor but I have taught on a one on one basis and classes. When folks think they know more than the instructor does it is time to let them go their own way awhile, usually beating their head against a brick wall. After their head is softened up enough then they may be ready to listen.

I do have to say this isn't the case here. In Jen-Cen shoes I would want to know how well the instructor plays or has played. The instructor can't teach by example if they can't do what they are telling you to do. When neither the instructor nor the student can make the shot or shape then the student is left to wonder if it is the equipment they are working on or if the technique is flawed.

Maybe the instructor doesn't put in the hours of practice needed to be a pro or maybe they simply don't have the competitive fire. However if they don't have the mechanics I would move on to another instructor.

Hu

 

[McKinneyMiner]

Doug Blevins is the best kicking coach in the NFL... Period...

However, Doug is confined to a wheelchair and certainly can't personally demostrate what he knows about kicking...

I have to admit that I would be leery of learning from someone who couldn't demonstrate to me what I want to accomplish, but the evidence is everywhere that the problem lies not with the instructor, but the student...

 

[td873]

I was e-mailing back and forth with an instructor who advertises on here. He runs a pool school. All I wanted to know was what speed he is rated as a player.

And this instructor would not disclose this info. Instead he danced around and said it doesn't make a difference.

If he's ashamed to disclose his rating, it must be low. I'm not about to give $900 to an instructor who's only a C player.

There is a critical issue here that has been overlooked. There are (at least) 2 kinds of instruction.

1) The kind where you don't know anything, and your teacher is there to give you information. This is like being in elementary, high school, or undergrad. You are just there to get enough information to have a foundation. Any teacher of these types of "remedial" classes will know more than you and do it better than you, so it really doesn't matter who that instructor is - since you are just there to get the fundamentals. With pool in mind, if you are a beginner or an intermediate player, there is little question that the instructor is better than you. This, of course, is a broad generalization and specific exceptions will apply.

2) The second kind of instruction is specialized in a discipline. And for this kind of instruction the teacher MUST have some ability to execute/play. That is, a teacher could not have learned the advanced principle in question without first learning all the underlying principles. A simple example is jump draw. Without first knowing how to jump and how to draw, the instructor could not teach jump draw. Similarly, advanced safety play inherently requires an understanding of cue ball control and strategy. In these instances, you may actually be substantially better (all around) than your instructor. But your instructor will have some knowledge you don't and will be able to evaluate your game and apply their knowledge.

[A] Unfortunately, in the first instance, you won't know if your instructor is any good, since you don't/won't have the ability to judge them. That is, a second grader thinks their teacher is smart becuase they just don't know any better. The same is true in pool.

In the second instance, it should be easy for you to tell if the teacher is blowing smoke or knows what they are doing. You should have enough information and ability to guage them and their ability to teach you anything. If you can't tell right away, well, you're in up in [A]

And finally, getting to the "won't disclose their speed" - I would immediately put them in category 1 above (trying to teach people that have no ability and don't know better) and move on. If they were ever good, they would say something like, "I was an A+ for years, but stopped playing so now I am unrated." And if they were a great teacher, but just couldn't execute on the table (say for physical reasons), the should say something like "I was always a D player, but really understand the game. In fact, I have instructed Archer, Strickland, and Soquet [or whoever]." There is no shame in not being a world champion, and there is no reason not to be honest. If you ask, and they give you the run around - just move on.

-td

 

[JoeW]

Perhaps this will help to clarify the issue. Let's say you wanted to take dancing lessons and you were looking for a good instructor. There is certainly an element of "book learning" to the moves that are needed. However, the written word will only go so far. Indeed this is why we seek a teacher. The teacher needs to have the book learning completely mastered and then know how to bring it all together.

The good teacher can show us what to do and it is the little moves, the subtleties that the teacher looks for and changes in the student's behavior. In this sense the teacher must know what these subtleties are and they are not learned from a book but from success in the endeavor.

The first grade teacher teaches us the alphabet; the mentor shows us how to bring it all together.

Of course some people do not do their homework (read the book) and they are simply not ready for a teacher. These people are looking for someone to read the book to them.

In reply to some of the other posts, any professional should hang their credentials on the wall for all to see and should be more than pleased to give their credentials to any and all who ask. This is one way we maintain integrity / accountability in any profession.

 

[JoeyA]

People say the same thing about cue makers.
They think only a top rated player could know how to make a custom cue.
Just like teaching it is all about knowledge.

If your instructor is has the knowledge to isolate your weaknesses and coach you to improve on them then he is doing his job.

And just like cues some will feel right and some will not.
You will know after a few lessons if your instructor and you are a match up.

So, are you a really good cuemaker?
JoeyA

 

[catscradle]

....

Hi Willie, can recall hearing too much from you since the RSB days.

 

[whitewolf]

Right, I agree.

But if you ask a pool instructor what speed they play at, they should answer you.

Also, in baseball, I believe that hitting and pitching instructors were former Major League players. And they examine mechanics and all that, but they also scout out the opposing hitters/pitchers and formulate game plans to exploit their weaknesses.

A just as important question you should be asking is: what is the highest level of attainment of any of your students?

But, I agree with you, if you asked them what their speed was and they beat around the bush, then you should look for a new teacher!!!!!! An honest instructor would should tell you right off the bat. You want someone who is going to be straight forward with you and no BS-ing.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

I was e-mailing back and forth with an instructor who advertises on here. He runs a pool school. All I wanted to know was what speed he is rated as a player.

And this instructor would not disclose this info. Instead he danced around and said it doesn't make a difference.

If he's ashamed to disclose his rating, it must be low. I'm not about to give $900 to an instructor who's only a C player.

IMO, it really does not make a difference what the instructors "speed" is. Being evasive about the question is kinda lame and unprofessional though. They ought to be able to have that conversation and have it end in your comfort and respect for your instructor.

I have had a lesson from, Cole Dickson (1990), Nick Varner (1990), Efren Reyes (1998) and several from Frank "dabarbr" Almanza (2005 & 2006). Either I am dumb as a board or instruction is not their specialty--Frank excluded.

Nick's lesson, which included the fantastic advice of "don't miss" and "what do you want me to teach you", did finally get through to me; although they took 15 years for me to understand

Efren's lesson of "follow the cue ball, using draw" was one of the most perplexing moments of my life . I finally learned that one too, but it took 6-12 months of pondering.

Cole, gave only a few tips on straight pool strategy.

Frank is the best of the bunch teaching wise. He helped my 8-Ball game jump 3-4 balls in about 6-12 months. 8-Ball, Straight Pool and One Pocket strategy are his niche for sure and better yet, he can clearly express our intention with the lesson and answering questions clearly and concisely. Before spending time with Frank, my 8-Ball high run might have been 3 racks. I bested that with a seven-pack in 2006.

Granted, if I spoke Tagalog, the Efren lesson could have helped volumes; however I have seen Efren teaching and coaching Rodolfo Luat before with Luat and Efren ending up totally frustrated as Luat just did not get it

The point is, what is most important is that your instructor find the common ground with you in which to relay their knowledge and instruction. Organizing it all is very important as well.

Last thing, Hal Mix was Nick Varner's teacher and traveling coach for many, many years. Hal could not play much at all, but his student has been World Champion many times over including a solid stay at #1 while under the wing of Hal.

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

work with me? your kidding right?

My offer was to play, not recieve instruction...However, the video you provide could be very helpful, I myself, im not interested, I have my own equipment, but I really do like that method, id say its worth every penny


SPINDOKTOR

Excuse me? When did I ever "duck" you? You have never even responded to my PM's regarding working with you. I don't even know where you live, let alone whether I WANT to work with you. The student must come into the lesson with an open mind...otherwise it is a waste of time for both people. If you're really serious...contact me. The ball is in your court!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[sixpack]

Roger Federer is the best tennis player today. Can anyone name his coach? Tiger Woods, who is his coach? Eddie Murray is one of only 3 players to hit 500 home runs and 3000 hits. The Dodgers fired him as their hitting coach because he could not teach. All of this said, I don't understand why someone who is charging $900 wont' give you his credentials. Scott, I'm looking forward to my lesson with you Saturday.

Tiger Woods coach is Hank Haney a great instructor and a helluva player in his own right. His former coach was Butch Harmon, a great player who hung around with Jimmy Demaret and that crew at Champions in Houston.

Harvey Penick, considered one of the greatest golf coaches/instructors of all time said "never trust a coach that hasn't played at a high level." And Lee Trevino, when asked why he didn't have a swing coach said "You find me a teacher that can beat me and I'll hire him."

Golf Instructors have to pass a playability test before they can join the PGA which is to shoot back-to-back rounds less than 11 over total. Not too difficult, but at least it's some kind of playability test.

Roger Federer, I don't know, I don't follow badminton.

Personally, I wouldn't hire someone to give me a lesson unless they played better than I do or had specific knowledge I wanted.

~rc

 

[pooltchr]

have any instructors on here ever declined teaching someone because they got the feeling that the pupil may be a pain-in-the-ass and not worth the trouble?

Yes, but not for that reason. I have turned down students who I didn't believe really wanted to learn. If a student can't have an open mind to at least try new things, or if they think that instruction is going to make them a great player, they are setting themselves up for failure. I don't need that kind of students. If someone truely wants to learn, and is willing to put in the work necessary, I will gladly put in whatever time and effort is needed to help them. If not, they would be wasting their money and my time.
BTW, I've only had a handful of students that I had to suggest they look for another instructor.
Steve

 

[JoeyA]

Efren's lesson of "follow the cue ball, using draw" was one of the most perplexing moments of my life . I finally learned that one too, but it took 6-12 months of pondering.

I have heard similar words from Filipino players but do not think I ever truly got it. I've pondered it to bits.

Can you help to explain it? ( How it's done and the benefits to be derived from it, etc.)
JoeyA

 

[Blackjack]

I have heard similar words from Filipino players but do not think I ever truly got it. I've pondered it to bits.

Can you help to explain it? ( How it's done and the benefits to be derived from it, etc.)
JoeyA

It's one those secrets that will make you change the way you look at controlling the rock.

Right Corey?


I remember that I tried to explain it once (either here or at RSB), and I caught a lot of heat over it - some started calling me crazy and saying I didn't know what I was talking about. They were convinced that it made no sense. I'm still smiling that same smile Efren had on his face when he showed me.