Is Charlie Williams the most powerful man in pro-pool?
- Thread starter Jesters
- Start date
Yes I am Steve which is why my opinion on it is probably biased but my opinion on many things in the pool industry is not along with seeing a need for change or something different then the same thing going on for years now. If something is no good I will just say it, offer my solution and opinion, and if its right I will offer my praise. It is weird because some here are in tight with promoters and players so they might have an inside scoop on some stuff and share it here or keep it to themselves. There are many more forum members who are out of touch so to speak and just make assumptions on things with no real knowledge of things behind the scenes and I am guilty of that myself with people I do not know all that well like Charlie Williams, Barry Behrman and others but I voice my opinion based on information I never have received first hand.
I love you buddy but yes, your opinion is obviously biased. I already knew the answer to my question but just wanted everyone to be clear where you were coming from. JCIN and Mark Griffin know a little something about promoting pool and you know what their opinion is.
Today this VPBB guy doesn't have any hard stats of the great Bonus Ball leagues he ran all over Canada. He has to get them uploaded, I can only imagine what creative score sheets we will be seeing once he does so. Sham Wow.
We seem to be hearing conflicting info on Bonus ball. Once side saying it's all going well and everything is going to be starting soon and then another side saying the whole thing is bad, lies and no money. To be honest I would not bet anyone a dollar as to which side is telling the truth. Each side seems 100% certain that they are right. Only time will tell.
As someone who enjoys watching professional matches of the normal variety and someone who intially liked the concept of Bonus Ball (and thought the matches on youtube were interesting) I feel like I can have a fairly objective opinion. Around the time BB was originally supposed to kick off myself and even some of my pool playing friends were kind of excited about it. If it had gone off as intended it may have had an outside shot. Now so much time has gone by with problems and false start dates galore it kind of lost any intial buzz and momentum it had in my opinion. Being realistic I thought it had a slim chance at success from the start (based on the history of pool promotions being the best predictor of future outcomes), but I think the window has now been closed and I'd give it a 1% chance of any modicum of success. Unfortunate.
"But it's kind of hard beeing Snoop in the LBC"
Charlie Williams
As a semi-professional player, I don't really care who the most powerful man in Pro Pool is.I can't hardly understand why they call it Professional Pool
The players we are all the suckers here,for even showing up to those events.
I understand the work all the promoters of events do to make a successful event.And I understand it is not easy to put together an event.
But I think these $10.000,$20.000,$25.000 or even $50.000 Added events are a big scam for the players who go and participate.
Reason being, most promoters not only would never raise the added money as the years go by, but they wouldn't even add this money unless they can make it back.
Their inability to bring new sponsors, and companies to sponsor an event is pretty strong,it seems..Obviously, since the prize funds never increase,if anything they decrease year after year
Some of these events talked about here, may have been successful events for the promoters;some of them I'm sure have been memorable for the sport, but the reality is that if the participant is not going to consistently finish in the very top spots, he/she is wasting time and money.Therefore, if at the very least there aren't 30-50 players who can make a living playing Pro pool, it shouldn't even be called Pro Pool.
For an event with 128-players to pay $1500-$2000 for 5th;for an event with 256 players to pay $1000 for top 33rd place,(with a $500 entry + expenses);for a 64-player field event to pay $600 for 9th place,with a $340 entry;for a 300/400-player field to pay $3000 for 3rd place,with a $215 entry.
I have even seen 192-player field regional Open event with the biggest names in the game playing 9Ball there, and 3rd place got paid $1000!!
And then call all these events names like,US Open,World Tournament,and titles like that,I don't know, I think it's a shame...
It is also a shame that some of these events are Points Ranking events by the BCA.
No event should be a points events without 25% of the field getting anything less than $2500 at the bottom, and up!
If no promoter can get a prize fund to guarantee that, why not call them all Open events? That's what they are any way.
How can you not even have qualifiers for these Pro events? How can you let my grandmother pay an entry fee and let her in to embarrass the game. I've seen some terrible players participate in Pro events many times. And it's embarrassing to watch.
Now if you are lucky to draw that player you may make the money round, if you get a good player instead you may not make the money round.The crazy weak players shouldn't even be in the field to begin with!
I don't know the solution,but I think a promoter should find a solution.
All it takes is one doing the right thing and getting money to the players, and we (all) the players will follow, because in my opinion, they are all doing a terrible job,in both amateur and Pro pool.
When a player gets to be too good, then they bar him from some events and then you see lower skilled players making more money than good short-stops or semi-pros, and that happens on a weekly basis, all around the country, and in Nationals.
Is that inspiring for young players coming into the game? Is this how they promote pool in the US. "get good but not too good,or else you won't be able to play the Amateur event in SBE". what a joke!
Players enter a Pro event twice a year, and that is enough to call them Pro players and bar them from Amateur tours and certain regional events.
These prize funds are a slap in the face for both amateurs and Pro players .
And I don't see anyone doing a thing about it.
I played a bar table tournament not too long ago in a small town called Saratoga, in Wyoming (population 1700).
The entry fee was similar to the entry fee you would pay to play in an Eurotour event.
The top price was very similar to what the top price would be in an Eurotour event in Europe.$3000 something for 1st (+ Calcutta)
But yet Eurotours draw 150-200 players consistently; this tournament in Saratoga drew only 48 Players in the Master Division.
How can this be?
Something wrong with Pro Pool,not only in the US, but in Asia and Europe as well.
Where is the money?
This is very sad...
Why people tends to just accept that there is no money in pool? Why is it so funny?Why does people say it so proudly, and then they bring up what they make in their regular jobs.
Why are the pro players treated so bad? It takes a lot of years of practice and skill to play at a Pro level. How come there is not one decent promoter/organization capable of doing something great for the Pro Players?
The Pros won't ask for too much. But the prize funds have gone down to all time lows in recent years, and no one seems to care.
All it takes is to all work together in a positive way. Why is it so hard to get out of this hole?
As a semi-professional player, I don't really care who the most powerful man in Pro Pool is.I can't hardly understand why they call it Professional Pool
The players we are all the suckers here,for even showing up to those events.
I understand the work all the promoters of events do to make a successful event.And I understand it is not easy to put together an event.
But I think these $10.000,$20.000,$25.000 or even $50.000 Added events are a big scam for the players who go and participate.
Reason being, most promoters not only would never raise the added money as the years go by, but they wouldn't even add this money unless they can make it back.
Their inability to bring new sponsors, and companies to sponsor an event is pretty strong,it seems..Obviously, since the prize funds never increase,if anything they decrease year after year
Some of these events talked about here, may have been successful events for the promoters;some of them I'm sure have been memorable for the sport, but the reality is that if the participant is not going to consistently finish in the very top spots, he/she is wasting time and money.Therefore, if at the very least there aren't 30-50 players who can make a living playing Pro pool, it shouldn't even be called Pro Pool.
For an event with 128-players to pay $1500-$2000 for 5th;for an event with 256 players to pay $1000 for top 33rd place,(with a $500 entry + expenses);for a 64-player field event to pay $600 for 9th place,with a $340 entry;for a 300/400-player field to pay $3000 for 3rd place,with a $215 entry.
I have even seen 192-player field regional Open event with the biggest names in the game playing 9Ball there, and 3rd place got paid $1000!!
And then call all these events names like,US Open,World Tournament,and titles like that,I don't know, I think it's a shame...
It is also a shame that some of these events are Points Ranking events by the BCA.
No event should be a points events without 25% of the field getting anything less than $2500 at the bottom, and up!
If no promoter can get a prize fund to guarantee that, why not call them all Open events? That's what they are any way.
How can you not even have qualifiers for these Pro events? How can you let my grandmother pay an entry fee and let her in to embarrass the game. I've seen some terrible players participate in Pro events many times. And it's embarrassing to watch.
Now if you are lucky to draw that player you may make the money round, if you get a good player instead you may not make the money round.The crazy weak players shouldn't even be in the field to begin with!
I don't know the solution,but I think a promoter should find a solution.
All it takes is one doing the right thing and getting money to the players, and we (all) the players will follow, because in my opinion, they are all doing a terrible job,in both amateur and Pro pool.
When a player gets to be too good, then they bar him from some events and then you see lower skilled players making more money than good short-stops or semi-pros, and that happens on a weekly basis, all around the country, and in Nationals.
Is that inspiring for young players coming into the game? Is this how they promote pool in the US. "get good but not too good,or else you won't be able to play the Amateur event in SBE". what a joke!
Players enter a Pro event twice a year, and that is enough to call them Pro players and bar them from Amateur tours and certain regional events.
These prize funds are a slap in the face for both amateurs and Pro players .
And I don't see anyone doing a thing about it.
I played a bar table tournament not too long ago in a small town called Saratoga, in Wyoming (population 1700).
The entry fee was similar to the entry fee you would pay to play in an Eurotour event.
The top price was very similar to what the top price would be in an Eurotour event in Europe.$3000 something for 1st (+ Calcutta)
But yet Eurotours draw 150-200 players consistently; this tournament in Saratoga drew only 48 Players in the Master Division.
How can this be?
Something wrong with Pro Pool,not only in the US, but in Asia and Europe as well.
Where is the money?
This is very sad...
Why people tends to just accept that there is no money in pool? Why is it so funny?Why does people say it so proudly, and then they bring up what they make in their regular jobs.
Why are the pro players treated so bad? It takes a lot of years of practice and skill to play at a Pro level. How come there is not one decent promoter/organization capable of doing something great for the Pro Players?
The Pros won't ask for too much. But the prize funds have gone down to all time lows in recent years, and no one seems to care.
All it takes is to all work together in a positive way. Why is it so hard to get out of this hole?
Last edited:
Charlie Williams
Why make it a business to stream 1 to 1 matches between top players playing for guaranteed money?
And if it's not event a business for the company, why do it?
I would rather see all these money,time and work from these companies thrown to a prize fund of a big Pro Tournament, so that the skilled player that makes it to the top 32nd place in a field of 128 Professional players tournament can clear enough money after expenses to go back home and take his girlfriend to a decent restaurant for dinner.
Strong players used to match up a lot more in the US. Match up in the pool halls, with other players.
Now poolhalls are filled with players with laptops watching streaming matches of Pro Pool players playing exhibitions, and paying to watch that!
I rather see these top players matching up in a poolhall for real cash.
So much effort aimed in the wrong direction..
Why make it a business to stream 1 to 1 matches between top players playing for guaranteed money?
And if it's not event a business for the company, why do it?
I would rather see all these money,time and work from these companies thrown to a prize fund of a big Pro Tournament, so that the skilled player that makes it to the top 32nd place in a field of 128 Professional players tournament can clear enough money after expenses to go back home and take his girlfriend to a decent restaurant for dinner.
Strong players used to match up a lot more in the US. Match up in the pool halls, with other players.
Now poolhalls are filled with players with laptops watching streaming matches of Pro Pool players playing exhibitions, and paying to watch that!
I rather see these top players matching up in a poolhall for real cash.
So much effort aimed in the wrong direction..
I'm terribly sorry for my ignorance of the situation, but I am 99.9% sure I have seen top-tier pros playing in some of Shannon's GSBT events. Heck, I'm pretty sure I've seen YouTube footage of Shannon himself playing Johnny Archer in one of the events held in Johnny's room (and it was tournament footage).
So, as usual, I'm utterly confused. If these two top-tier pros can play in an amateur event, number one, how is it considered an "amateur" event, and two, what's to stop many more top-tier players from playing in it???
Can somebody that knows a lot more about these things than I do can explain this? Or, Justin himself?
Sorry, not trying to derail the thread!!!
Maniac
You sir have ZERO clue as to what it takes to put on ANY pro event and what it takes to raise the money for these events. To say that promoters are doing a bad job???
We have maybe the smallest viewership in the world of any sport. Big companies want to see results and reach. If you had taken the time to no think about what the pros should get and how bad promoters are doing you would know this. Just go and try get $10k together from anywhere right now to put on a half pro event that is going just to the prize fund. Then get the money it will cost you to get to the event, then get the money for hotyels for you and your staff or refs, commantary, bandwidth for PPV< then make sure the ppv people have their expenses too and they are not working for free so make sure you got that money too then you got to make sure you got place to hold this event unless its a pool room and when you have all that money together and then your print and marketing materials together see how much your time is worth for doing it. This could take at least 3 months so you decided that one on how much you feel you should make. YOU HAVE NO CLUE. what it takes. So before you go on some rant about how the poor pros are getting treated look at how much work goes into the otherside and how much they make. You may change your mind. However if its easy, I suggest you go for it and promote events yourself and put on the biggest and best show in town and chances are you will be a multimillionaire very fast.
We have maybe the smallest viewership in the world of any sport. Big companies want to see results and reach. If you had taken the time to no think about what the pros should get and how bad promoters are doing you would know this. Just go and try get $10k together from anywhere right now to put on a half pro event that is going just to the prize fund. Then get the money it will cost you to get to the event, then get the money for hotyels for you and your staff or refs, commantary, bandwidth for PPV< then make sure the ppv people have their expenses too and they are not working for free so make sure you got that money too then you got to make sure you got place to hold this event unless its a pool room and when you have all that money together and then your print and marketing materials together see how much your time is worth for doing it. This could take at least 3 months so you decided that one on how much you feel you should make. YOU HAVE NO CLUE. what it takes. So before you go on some rant about how the poor pros are getting treated look at how much work goes into the otherside and how much they make. You may change your mind. However if its easy, I suggest you go for it and promote events yourself and put on the biggest and best show in town and chances are you will be a multimillionaire very fast.
Marc, a promoter isn't running a tournament for fun just as you don't play in a tournament for fun. The point is to not break even or lose money, but to turn a profit. Sometimes, a promoter puts on an event and take one to the chin by adding more than they can recoup and they adjust the following year accordingly.
Why on earth would a promoter add money if they couldn't recover those funds somehow??? That would be the dumbest business move. Would you invest in something that you knew you would lose money on? That just doesn't make business sense. The money has to come from somewhere.
Honeatly "added money" is a terrible idea. It doesn't work and should be dumped.
This is life. It's not always fair. Nobody dislikes pool players or wants them to be broke but nobody is gonna go broke trying to help a pool player get some extra money. We all have choices as to what we want to be in life. Some have less choices but everyone had a choice to make at some point and years ago you had a choice. You chose this and it hasn't been terrible for you. Yea, maybe you would have better off going to a trade school or chasing the golf/poker money, but there was never and more than likely never will be pool money. Even the ipt was limited to the very best
I'm not trying to be mean, I think you're a great guy, just being realistic.
And after they give their money to the ungrateful pool player how are they suppose to recoup their investment?
Once again, just because you can draw your ball doesn't mean that you are qualified to have a business license for anything to do with pool.
I wish we could swap post #70 and #71 around so it wouldn't look like you were ripping ME a new one!!! :grin:
Maniac
You sir have ZERO clue as to what it takes to put on ANY pro event and what it takes to raise the money for these events. To say that promoters are doing a bad job???
We have maybe the smallest viewership in the world of any sport. Big companies want to see results and reach. If you had taken the time to no think about what the pros should get and how bad promoters are doing you would know this. Just go and try get $10k together from anywhere right now to put on a half pro event that is going just to the prize fund. Then get the money it will cost you to get to the event, then get the money for hotyels for you and your staff or refs, commantary, bandwidth for PPV< then make sure the ppv people have their expenses too and they are not working for free so make sure you got that money too then you got to make sure you got place to hold this event unless its a pool room and when you have all that money together and then your print and marketing materials together see how much your time is worth for doing it. This could take at least 3 months so you decided that one on how much you feel you should make. YOU HAVE NO CLUE. what it takes. So before you go on some rant about how the poor pros are getting treated look at how much work goes into the otherside and how much they make. You may change your mind. However if its easy, I suggest you go for it and promote events yourself and put on the biggest and best show in town and chances are you will be a multimillionaire very fast.
Sorry man, just got pissed and typed and hit send
Sorry man, just got pissed and typed and hit send
We all knew the deal, Maniac included, I'm sure.
ALSO you seem aweful interested in what the bottom players get paid.. This leads me to believe that maybe you should try something else. If all you are looking for is what can I make when I lose its not a good attitude so instead of me getting good enough to win this thing let me get the promoter to just find more money so I can lose and do ok still since I only show up on Thurdsay play a game I love and get paid. WTF are these promoters doing I just see them standing around on cell phones and they go here the same time as me>
NONSENSE> Man I don't think I have been this pissed off at a post before AAAARRRGGHHH
Ungrateful
Williams
Mark I would raise a few thousand for a Pro event in a heart beat! I guarantee you.And I know nothing about business,promoting and I'm bad with numbers.
All I can do half decently is play pool.
But I know of people close to me who knows a lot more about this business, and they could raise $10.000 for a Pro event without even trying. And they have great and positive intention, and you have met them recently,and they have put a bit of money in your pocket too,to you and your promotions you are involve with,I believe..
Now there are many promoters in the US that that is what they do,every day, that is what they do.Don't tell me what is involved in organizing an event, I can have an idea, and if you think many of the promoters are doing a great job. How come the players are so miserable?
Well, with all due respect I really think they are not doing a good job. For themselves maybe yes, for the players, NO!!
And if these so called Pro Tournaments are not for the betterment of the players and the betterment of the sport,-who is it for?
I understand the expenses of a Pro event/World event are different than a regional tour in a poolhall, I understand all that.
All your responses I already know and heard 1000 times.
However there is a lot of room for improvement. Ask any Pro player that has been touring for decades about it,and see what they tell you.
Many Open and Pro tours paid a lot better some 20 years ago than now.
To me it is obvious then that whoever the promoters where then, did a much better job than the ones now.Maybe not, maybe they just got lucky bumping into a big sponsor. I don't know, and I m not afraid of being wrong
I still think it wouldnt take much to improve these payouts.
What pool and the players need is less people talking about the reasons of why there is no money in pool. Pool needs positive promoters going out there and finding a way to make sure a Pro event will pay decent money for the Pro Players.
I really don't think they are even trying. Why try anyways if the players are going to show up and play wether they pay $10.000 for 1st or $20.000?
Thats what I see. And the numbers in these prize funds state very clearly this fact.
Mark I would raise a few thousand for a Pro event in a heart beat! I guarantee you.And I know nothing about business,promoting and I'm bad with numbers.
All I can do half decently is play pool.
But I know of people close to me who knows a lot more about this business, and they could raise $10.000 for a Pro event without even trying. And they have great and positive intention, and you have met them recently,and they have put a bit of money in your pocket too,to you and your promotions you are involve with,I believe..
Now there are many promoters in the US that that is what they do,every day, that is what they do.Don't tell me what is involved in organizing an event, I can have an idea, and if you think many of the promoters are doing a great job. How come the players are so miserable?
Well, with all due respect I really think they are not doing a good job. For themselves maybe yes, for the players, NO!!
And if these so called Pro Tournaments are not for the betterment of the players and the betterment of the sport,-who is it for?
I understand the expenses of a Pro event/World event are different than a regional tour in a poolhall, I understand all that.
All your responses I already know and heard 1000 times.
However there is a lot of room for improvement. Ask any Pro player that has been touring for decades about it,and see what they tell you.
Many Open and Pro tours paid a lot better some 20 years ago than now.
To me it is obvious then that whoever the promoters where then, did a much better job than the ones now.Maybe not, maybe they just got lucky bumping into a big sponsor. I don't know, and I m not afraid of being wrong
I still think it wouldnt take much to improve these payouts.
What pool and the players need is less people talking about the reasons of why there is no money in pool. Pool needs positive promoters going out there and finding a way to make sure a Pro event will pay decent money for the Pro Players.
I really don't think they are even trying. Why try anyways if the players are going to show up and play wether they pay $10.000 for 1st or $20.000?
Thats what I see. And the numbers in these prize funds state very clearly this fact.
That one line made me chuckle. Why should/would anyone care about how much the pros make if they don't even care?