Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?

[ENGLISH!]

I and many others believe that a human can be more accurate with only one moving body part. All tests show that the cue stays level for the required amount of time and at the correct time using a pendulum stroke.

Rick states that the tests prove nothing because machines and math were used instead of a human. He states that no human can be that accurate. But, yet, he claims that while no human can be that accurate while only having to control ONE moving body part, somehow, with no evidence at all, he claims that a human can be MORE accurate with at least THREE moving body parts!

If a person can't control one body part, surely they can't control three body parts at the same time. Yet, somehow, you think he is being logical about it all???? I also wonder just how much of the two threads going on the pendulum stroke you have actually read?

I wish you would mature & stop misstating what others actually say & hence misleading by setting false premises & conclusions, as well as, your completely false statements in your attempts to 'WIN'.

What 'test'... & what machine that actually replicates a human beings physiology.

Even if there was such, it would not take into account the control factors.

Do you think that trying to keep a body part still is not controlling it?

It seems that you would rather have an individual focus on that rather than simply allow what happens naturally when focusing on the task at hand which is to hit a specific part of the ball with a small piece of leather on the end of straight stick.

How one connects to the cue has more to do to dictate what should happen than any conscious decision or contrivance & that is almost always neglected in these types of conversations, Also the shape of an implement rather dictates how it is more naturally used. If the cue was curved on the end then perhaps an arcing movement would be better. But it's not, it's straight.

The human body & mind are amazing & can do amazing things IF... no road blocks are set up to LIMIT such.

There is a natural method to doing things & then there are contrived methods. For the most part, almost all, in fact, I can not think of one time where we have have contrived to do something better than 'Mother Nature' or God that we have been successful.

I said that I was not looking for nor did I want to argue or discuss this with anyone but your incorrect portrayals & statements pulled me in to make this post. (As they usually do)

As I said before, I've made my points, as have others, & each individual can make their own determinations as well that they should.

Pro Golfers go to swing gurus, etc. but the bottom line is that they are responsible for the method & the swings that they make & when something does not work well for them they don't 'blame' the guru, but instead blame themselves for accepting what the guru offered.

Like butch Harmon has said, 'I may not be able to BUILD a Championship Swing... but if I am NOT VERY CAREFUL... I KNOW I can RUIN one.'.

Best Wishes to ALL

PS The Full Pendulum SWING is an easy concept to teach the as it is a very simple machine propelled by gravity. The Human Body & Mind are very complex & they are so for reasons. To limit them is usually a 'band aid' approach & normally the result of doing so results in mediocrity compare to equal performance levels of the natural manner.

PPS Look at what Tiger Woods did in winning his First Masters Tournament before he limited his 'natural swing'. Some will say look at what he did after. Check out his margin of victory after that Masters win & also his injury history.

 

[ps611846]

Anybody knows any top pool player using a "pendulum stroke" ? Only beginners trying to learn how to hold the cue and hit ccb. There is not much you can do with this kind of stroke. And of course you can't spin the ball properly. Which is not good for the player but it's really good for the LD industry....

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Anybody knows any top pool player using a "pendulum stroke" ? Only beginners trying to learn how to hold the cue and hit ccb. There is not much you can do with this kind of stroke. And of course you can't spin the ball properly. Which is not good for the player but it's really good for the LD industry....

So you don't know anything about it...

pj <- good for the LD industry?
chgo

 

[ps611846]

So you don't know anything about it...

pj <- good for the LD industry?
chgo

Of course I know. I know it's a joke.

Now, name one top pro pool player who uses a pendulum stroke !!!!!!

 

[pdcue]

There is nothing wrong with dropping ones elbow. IF one can reliably hit the cb where they intend to while dropping. But, when dropping the elbow, there are more things going on that can go wrong during the stroke. Which is why most pros usually don't drop the elbow before contact.

News flash - this thread deals with elbow drop AFTER contact.

Title of thread:

"Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?"

Dale

 

[336Robin]

For all of these reasons

I was bothered by the fact that I had some elbow drop and I I thought first recognizing it was a good thing. The fact that I am playing well is most important to me because I want to continue that. After taking a lot of the comments here to the table some of which I was a little uncomfortable emulating and some thoughts afterward I found that my list of things that I felt that could be tweaked was similar to your list, however I didn't consider hip height or shoulder height. My grip position is my main culprit. I am short 5ft 7 and my arms are thick and I like having my hand a little in front of where I suppose it should be at rest. My bridge is generally at 10 to 12 inches depending on most shots. I decided I would work on getting my grip hand back to 90 degrees and I thought I would do so a bit at time as I was comfortable with it. I do think eliminating the elbow drop would be nice with a nice pendulum stroke. I was told to take my shot to the cloth and I don't like that at all as I felt I was going through at an angle. If I can make it happen naturally because of running out of follow through room I think that would be preferable. I am impressed by Rick White I believe.....The Oysters mechanics very much. Does what I say here Fran sound reasonable enough?

I don't profess to understand any of the calculations so I can't comment on them, but I would imagine that there has to be a list of assumptions to go along with them. I don't know how many of these are relevant to that particular equation but I find in my experience in helping players that the following variables can affect the arc of the player's swing:

-- The angle of attack of the cue at address.
-- The height of the player's hips relative to the table. This also includes knee bends or anything else that might affect the player's height at the table.
-- The position of the player's grip hand at address.
-- Grip hand or finger movement during the stroke and if so, at what point.
-- Wrist movement (or not) of the player during the stroke.
-- The height of the player's chin relative to the cue and if there is any head movement during the stroke.

I'm sure there are more. Then there are also the variety of combinations of the above variables to be considered.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...name one top pro pool player who uses a pendulum stroke !!!!!!

Describe what you think a pendulum stroke is.

pj <- some kids in Africa don't have any exclamation marks
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

More natural vs contrived & limiting.

Each individual can & should make their own determinations & choose.

Or... one should focus on the task at hand & let happen what happens to accomplish that task. If the task is not being accomplished then perhaps one should have an experienced eye like Fran Crimi take a look & see if one has inadvertently put up any road blocks in place to prevent the natural path to accomplishing the task.

Some here are genuine & some may have ulterior motives & agendas.

As my 8th. grade teacher taught me, always consider the source & their possible motive or agenda.

That may have made me a bit cynical at times, but it has also served me very very well.

Robin, before one decides to make a change & strive to pursue such, one should first attempt to determine if the change truly offers any benefit.

What you may perceive may not be the reality. Perhaps you have shoulder movement or too much of it. Maybe you're coming up or lunging forward, etc. etc.

If I were you & Fran is willing, I would send her a video for her analysis. (Ask her the angles of view needed.) Fran is not a cookie cutter.

That time spent might be invaluable to you.

Best Wishes to All.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I and many others believe that a human can be more accurate with only one moving body part. All tests show that the cue stays level for the required amount of time and at the correct time using a pendulum stroke.

Rick states that the tests prove nothing because machines and math were used instead of a human. He states that no human can be that accurate. But, yet, he claims that while no human can be that accurate while only having to control ONE moving body part, somehow, with no evidence at all, he claims that a human can be MORE accurate with at least THREE moving body parts!

If a person can't control one body part, surely they can't control three body parts at the same time. Yet, somehow, you think he is being logical about it all???? I also wonder just how much of the two threads going on the pendulum stroke you have actually read?

I said the level of logic was the same. You have not provided any evidence to back up any of your claims. As such, your claims are simply your anecdotal opinions. The "logic" in his post may have to do with the idea that the *result* is what matters. How the cue tip *should* operate is nice, but how it *does* operate is more important. Pool "physicists" have a bad habit of making claims based on isolating variables that are *not* isolated in actual practice. You "say" that having less moving parts is better because this probably makes sense to you. I don't entirely disagree. However, the complexity of the mind body interaction in humans is something that only fools claim to have an exhaustive understanding of. As I said, what tests have been done to compare the *results*, in actual practice, of the accuracy of the cue tip based on both methods. Why do the VAST majority of the pros drop their elbow? I mean, like, 98%. There is obviously some benefit, that as pro level players, they are *better equipped* to verify than you or I, regardless of what tests we, with our biases in framing such tests, conduct. I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that the pendulum stroke results in greater cue tip accuracy on the cueball over the wide variety of positions from which one might shoot a ball. If there is any, by all means please share. If there isn't, I'd recommend keeping a little bit more open and scientific mind about it. (And by scientific, I mean cognizant of the fact that we don't know everything, and in this area actually know quite little.)

Anyway, hopefully this makes sense to you.

KMRUNOUT

 

[ps611846]

Describe what you think a pendulum stroke is.

pj <- some kids in Africa don't have any exclamation marks
chgo

I 've heard it's a very good technique instructors teach to newbies in order to learn how to shoot straight. To make it work, you bring the cue back using your triceps. You then pause relaxing your muscles, and then you execute by contracting your biceps.

I always " thought" that I should use my biceps for pulling, and my triceps for pushing. And that's why this "technique" is a joke. Because it is completely un-natural and has nothing to do with the movement of the cue.

Still waiting for names of top pros who use your favorite pendulum stroke. If you know any top pros.......

 

[ENGLISH!]

I said the level of logic was the same. You have not provided any evidence to back up any of your claims. As such, your claims are simply your anecdotal opinions. The "logic" in his post may have to do with the idea that the *result* is what matters. How the cue tip *should* operate is nice, but how it *does* operate is more important. Pool "physicists" have a bad habit of making claims based on isolating variables that are *not* isolated in actual practice. You "say" that having less moving parts is better because this probably makes sense to you. I don't entirely disagree. However, the complexity of the mind body interaction in humans is something that only fools claim to have an exhaustive understanding of. As I said, what tests have been done to compare the *results*, in actual practice, of the accuracy of the cue tip based on both methods. Why do the VAST majority of the pros drop their elbow? I mean, like, 98%. There is obviously some benefit, that as pro level players, they are *better equipped* to verify than you or I, regardless of what tests we, with our biases in framing such tests, conduct. I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that the pendulum stroke results in greater cue tip accuracy on the cueball over the wide variety of positions from which one might shoot a ball. If there is any, by all means please share. If there isn't, I'd recommend keeping a little bit more open and scientific mind about it. (And by scientific, I mean cognizant of the fact that we don't know everything, and in this area actually know quite little.)

Anyway, hopefully this makes sense to you.

KMRUNOUT

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

That's 3 Thumbs Up, Sir.

Very, Very, Very, Well Said.

Best Wishes 2 You & ALL.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I 've heard it's a very good technique instructors teach to newbies in order to learn how to shoot straight. To make it work, you bring the cue back using your triceps. You then pause relaxing your muscles, and then you execute by contracting your biceps.

I always " thought" that I should use my biceps for pulling, and my triceps for pushing. And that's why this "technique" is a joke. Because it is completely un-natural and has nothing to do with the movement of the cue.

Still waiting for names of top pros who use your favorite pendulum stroke. If you know any top pros.......

Panos,

Some do not understand bio-mechanics & how they relate to the physics involved in executing certain physical 'activities' as naturally as possible.

Best Wishes to You & ALL.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Describe what you think a pendulum stroke is.

pj <- some kids in Africa don't have any exclamation marks
chgo

I 've heard it's a very good technique instructors teach to newbies in order to learn how to shoot straight. To make it work, you bring the cue back using your triceps. You then pause relaxing your muscles, and then you execute by contracting your biceps.

I always " thought" that I should use my biceps for pulling, and my triceps for pushing. And that's why this "technique" is a joke. Because it is completely un-natural and has nothing to do with the movement of the cue.

Still waiting for names of top pros who use your favorite pendulum stroke. If you know any top pros.......

That's what I thought.

You can't make useful comments about a pendulum stroke if you don't know what it is.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

I was bothered by the fact that I had some elbow drop and I I thought first recognizing it was a good thing. The fact that I am playing well is most important to me because I want to continue that. After taking a lot of the comments here to the table some of which I was a little uncomfortable emulating and some thoughts afterward I found that my list of things that I felt that could be tweaked was similar to your list, however I didn't consider hip height or shoulder height. My grip position is my main culprit. I am short 5ft 7 and my arms are thick and I like having my hand a little in front of where I suppose it should be at rest. My bridge is generally at 10 to 12 inches depending on most shots. I decided I would work on getting my grip hand back to 90 degrees and I thought I would do so a bit at time as I was comfortable with it. I do think eliminating the elbow drop would be nice with a nice pendulum stroke. I was told to take my shot to the cloth and I don't like that at all as I felt I was going through at an angle. If I can make it happen naturally because of running out of follow through room I think that would be preferable. I am impressed by Rick White I believe.....The Oysters mechanics very much. Does what I say here Fran sound reasonable enough?

Well, 'short' is a relative word. I'm 5'7" and I'm considered tall. LOL

First, just to be clear, I don't like the term 'pendulum stroke' so I will use 'rigid upper arm stroke'. IMO, neither perfectly describes the actual stroke but I think mine comes a little closer --- just to let you know what I mean when I use that term.

If you're going to use the rigid upper arm stroke for any given shot, then I think you should consider fully committing to it from beginning to end. That includes the finishing position of the tip on a downward angle. Using that stroke and then dropping your shoulder to avoid the downward finish can cause some problems. It can result in two separate strokes. It may not feel like two strokes but I've seen it happen where the player hits the ball and there is the slightest of pauses followed by shoulder drop and a level follow through. After all, you are changing from one muscle group to another.

The problem with that is that the main stroke has already ended with an abbreviated follow through. I have found that an abbreviated follow-through is an indication of a poorly-timed stroke. So then you would be getting into issues with your stroke timing.

Also, your planned shoulder drop can begin unintentionally before or right at contact, changing the place the tip hits the ball, which wouldn't be a good thing.

If you're going to drop your shoulder, you should do it in a continuous motion with intent --- or as they call it here --- the piston stroke.

(A very slight shoulder drop after impact is not what we're discussing here. I'm talking about shoulder drop with intent to keep the cue level after impact.)

I use both strokes, mostly the rigid upper arm stroke, but I also drop my shoulder when I feel it warrants it.

 

[Neil]

I wish you would mature & stop misstating what others actually say & hence misleading by setting false premises & conclusions, as well as, your completely false statements in your attempts to 'WIN'.

What 'test'... & what machine that actually replicates a human beings physiology.

Even if there was such, it would not take into account the control factors.

Do you think that trying to keep a body part still is not controlling it?

It seems that you would rather have an individual focus on that rather than simply allow what happens naturally when focusing on the task at hand which is to hit a specific part of the ball with a small piece of leather on the end of straight stick.

How one connects to the cue has more to do to dictate what should happen than any conscious decision or contrivance & that is almost always neglected in these types of conversations, Also the shape of an implement rather dictates how it is more naturally used. If the cue was curved on the end then perhaps an arcing movement would be better. But it's not, it's straight.

The human body & mind are amazing & can do amazing things IF... no road blocks are set up to LIMIT such.

There is a natural method to doing things & then there are contrived methods. For the most part, almost all, in fact, I can not think of one time where we have have contrived to do something better than 'Mother Nature' or God that we have been successful.

I said that I was not looking for nor did I want to argue or discuss this with anyone but your incorrect portrayals & statements pulled me in to make this post. (As they usually do)

As I said before, I've made my points, as have others, & each individual can make their own determinations as well that they should.

Pro Golfers go to swing gurus, etc. but the bottom line is that they are responsible for the method & the swings that they make & when something does not work well for them they don't 'blame' the guru, but instead blame themselves for accepting what the guru offered.

Like butch Harmon has said, 'I may not be able to BUILD a Championship Swing... but if I am NOT VERY CAREFUL... I KNOW I can RUIN one.'.

Best Wishes to ALL

PS The Full Pendulum SWING is an easy concept to teach the as it is a very simple machine propelled by gravity. The Human Body & Mind are very complex & they are so for reasons. To limit them is usually a 'band aid' approach & normally the result of doing so results in mediocrity compare to equal performance levels of the natural manner.

PPS Look at what Tiger Woods did in winning his First Masters Tournament before he limited his 'natural swing'. Some will say look at what he did after. Check out his margin of victory after that Masters win & also his injury history.

Since you are back to name calling and insults. And offer nothing of any real value to any actual thinking person, you can stick it where the sun don't shine, and feel free to use any stroke you want to, just make sure you extend the follow through. You are back on ignore.

 

[336Robin]

I will try to assess

Fran,
Thank you for your reply. What I do is very natural and I am getting the tip action that I need. I routinely play shots at 1/4 to 1/2 tip of follow using a stun stroke to get slow forward roll in one pocket and I execute those shots. I do think I slipped into more elbow drop than was needed and I didn't know it until someone said something and I realized what I was doing.

I will work on it and thank you.

Well, 'short' is a relative word. I'm 5'7" and I'm considered tall. LOL

First, just to be clear, I don't like the term 'pendulum stroke' so I will use 'rigid upper arm stroke'. IMO, neither perfectly describes the actual stroke but I think mine comes a little closer --- just to let you know what I mean when I use that term.

If you're going to use the rigid upper arm stroke for any given shot, then I think you should consider fully committing to it from beginning to end. That includes the finishing position of the tip on a downward angle. Using that stroke and then dropping your shoulder to avoid the downward finish can cause some problems. It can result in two separate strokes. It may not feel like two strokes but I've seen it happen where the player hits the ball and there is the slightest of pauses followed by shoulder drop and a level follow through. After all, you are changing from one muscle group to another.

The problem with that is that the main stroke has already ended with an abbreviated follow through. I have found that an abbreviated follow-through is an indication of a poorly-timed stroke. So then you would be getting into issues with your stroke timing.

Also, your planned shoulder drop can begin unintentionally before or right at contact, changing the place the tip hits the ball, which wouldn't be a good thing.

If you're going to drop your shoulder, you should do it in a continuous motion with intent --- or as they call it here --- the piston stroke.

(A very slight shoulder drop after impact is not what we're discussing here. I'm talking about shoulder drop with intent to keep the cue level after impact.)

I use both strokes, mostly the rigid upper arm stroke, but I also drop my shoulder when I feel it warrants it.

 

[Neil]

Anybody knows any top pool player using a "pendulum stroke" ? Only beginners trying to learn how to hold the cue and hit ccb. There is not much you can do with this kind of stroke. And of course you can't spin the ball properly. Which is not good for the player but it's really good for the LD industry....

Pat is 100% correct...you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[ps611846]

That's what I thought.

You can't make useful comments about a pendulum stroke if you don't know what it is.

pj
chgo

Blah, blah, blah..... You know that I know what it is. And how it can ruin one's game.

Names of pros using it pls !!!!!!

The only thing you can do is making "useful" comments here posting at least 100 times per day. You never play pool and you don't watch "high level" pool.

PS: It's really funny watching players trying to play this way and struggling to make this weird technique work. Even if they have done it for years. They look like they are constipated. If I had to play like that, I wouldn't even think to play the game.

 

[Neil]

News flash - this thread deals with elbow drop AFTER contact.

Title of thread:

"Is Elbow Drop after Tip Contact a Bad Thing?"

Dale

New flash for you- I know that. That is why I made the posts earlier that I did, you know, the ones you didn't bother to read. And, just to help you keep up, my pendulum posts were in response to another talking about it. Threads do sidetrack, you know.

 

[ps611846]

Pat is 100% correct...you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

And you think that you have a "stroke" !!!!

Nobody is perfect !!!!!!!