Is it possible to throw an object ball? Nope
- Thread starter mohrt
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Sounds right to me. Top players often use english to throw balls in order to play position in tight quarters. Hitting a fuller ball with helping english will enable you to develop a better feel of the cue ball. It's a very advantageous way of learning to play. If you would practice the amount you can throw a ball, and develop a good feel for this you will bring your game to another level. It is certainly worth learning, and you won't be disappointed with the results.
Billy I.
Aahh a world without friction
Lol, that's what it would take, to make object ball throw impossible. I don't know who the original poster was talking to, but he needs to take some basic physics courses before spewing out garbage like that.
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I don'tknow about slow vs fast, but from a practical point of view,
you can get the most effect with a stun stroke vs 'rolling' the CB.
Dale
lets get ron to escrow 10k and i will do the same.
we will set up an object ball, then a blocker ball at some distance between the object ball and the cueball.
set it up so that you can see the object ball, but that there is no way to see enough of it to cut it in.
now apply the appropriate english and speed and try to make it.
case closed. that disproves all of his theories about cueball deflection and subconcious aiming (as it would be IMPOSSIBLE for ANY cut shot to make the ball).
I will send wiring instructions for the 10k, or he can buy-out now for 5.
we will set up an object ball, then a blocker ball at some distance between the object ball and the cueball.
set it up so that you can see the object ball, but that there is no way to see enough of it to cut it in.
now apply the appropriate english and speed and try to make it.
case closed. that disproves all of his theories about cueball deflection and subconcious aiming (as it would be IMPOSSIBLE for ANY cut shot to make the ball).
I will send wiring instructions for the 10k, or he can buy-out now for 5.
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball.
Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.
You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
Wait a minute are you saying that according to this you can't use inside/outside english to help cut a ball in and use a fuller or thinner hit because you hit with english instead of center ball? Because that is not right, I see it all the time. I even tried it with a very thin cut shot. The make % was way lower with no side spin on the cue ball. Unless I am mis-understanding things here.
Avatar...
Your comment, and the way you worded it, indicates that you have picked the correct avatar of Tyler Durden, one of the coolest men ever. You made me laugh bro, good one.
So, applying spin on a given shot will have no impact on the path the object ball takes?
Cool...that's gonna make this game a lot easier.
Your comment, and the way you worded it, indicates that you have picked the correct avatar of Tyler Durden, one of the coolest men ever. You made me laugh bro, good one.
That could be just his perception. I'm pretty sure everything Ron knows is self-taught, or passed on from other pool players. Ron is 71 years young, and he started playing pool at 50! Some people thought he was crazy, he'd stand in a pool hall and shoot the cueball around the table for 8-10 hours just analyzing where it was going. He was obsessed with figuring this game out
His diamond systems are quite good.
Throw is for sure possible. I took a lesson years ago from Ray Martin and he talked about throw. Ray said outside english has a great deal of effect, slower speed also helps accentuate the effect. Inside english has a very minimal effect especially as the cut angle gets away from a thick hit.
Throwing ob
Read all the posts. Good analytical stuff. It appears about half of the posters can indeed throw an OB, including myself. The rest of the non throwers will throw someday when they believe they can. Reminds me of the college professor who on the first day warned all the deer hunters to not argue about a bullet rising. Science professor! Theoretically it doesn't happen, his argument. Trust me, bullets rise and fall, much like airplanes. He knew he would never convert us to his thinking and would not address it. He was an older fellow!Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball.
Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.
You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
This is my understanding.
There are other variables too: cut angle and top/bottom spin. And there are two ways to create the ball/ball friction that produces throw/transferred spin: with CB sidespin and without (by cutting the OB at an angle).
It can get a little complicated to estimate the combined effect of all these factors, but here's a summary of the factors and their effects found on Dr. Dave's website:
pj
chgo
that's not what throw is....
Throw is how the CB interacts with the OB.
If you have a sharp cut, the CB doesn't rebound straight off of the OB, it pushes through the OB, the final cut angle is therefore changed from the initial path of the CB, this is accentuated if you use spin and is GREATLY accentuated if there are two OB's that are frozen together because the momentum of the CB forces the first OB to push through the second changing the final cut angle from the first OB to the Second....
Yes, throw does exist and if you understand the principle that causes it, it becomes easier to do on purpose...
Jaden
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball.
Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.
You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
Throw is how the CB interacts with the OB.
If you have a sharp cut, the CB doesn't rebound straight off of the OB, it pushes through the OB, the final cut angle is therefore changed from the initial path of the CB, this is accentuated if you use spin and is GREATLY accentuated if there are two OB's that are frozen together because the momentum of the CB forces the first OB to push through the second changing the final cut angle from the first OB to the Second....
Yes, throw does exist and if you understand the principle that causes it, it becomes easier to do on purpose...
Jaden
Gosh, DP, that's a little harsh. It seems that both Mike Sigel and Irving Crane also do/did not believe in throw. Maybe there is something in the water in western New York.
Coriolis (a physicist who explained, among other things, why cyclonic storms rotate), published a book in 1835 that described lots of billiard physics. About 50 years later, a paper reviewing the book lamented that it did not receive the attention it should have since billiard players can't do physics and physicists can't do billiards. There is some overlap, much of which we see on AZB, but generally his point still holds.
If pool players had to have knowledge of geometry and physics before talking about geometry and physics, all of the aiming threads would disappear.
I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here, so just to be clear:
Throw (and transferred spin) is produced by the rubbing friction between the CB and OB surfaces as they're in contact with each other. Their surfaces rub against each other in opposite directions along the tangent line - none of this friction force is directed "through" the OB (along the CB's initial path) and none of the CB's forward momentum is part of the force that throws/spins the OB. All of the CB's forward momentum that is transferred to the OB is directed along the "pre-throw" OB path - this path is only changed by the rubbing friction.
pj
chgo
I completely disagree with you Bob. :angry:
...You only need geometry knowledge for the aiming threads to disappear. :thumbup:
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball.
Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.
You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
sure you can ask any bank player, they put spin on the OB on most every shot, gives them a bigger target. John Broomback showed me this, its also how you get a bal to reverse off the rail, and can cause it to curve befror it hits a cushion and lots more after. Its subtle but possible. Perhaps not with 50 year old mud balls on slow cloth. But on 860 with new balls it can be done, hell I done it, and i aint a world beater.
Now we're in a game of semantics...
The OB follows the exact path that the CB is in line with when the contact ends.
inside spin causes the CB to hug the inside of the OB after initial contact and shortens the angle and outside spin causes the CB to push through and widens the angle. draw pulls the CB away and tends to better keep the natural angle and follow tends to push the CB through the OB and widen the angle, but all of this is contingent upon the cut angle and speed of the shot.
/Combinations of different spin will have varying effects....
You can actually draw in a way that causes the angle to be widened, if you have just a slight angle and strike the CB hard enough to keep forward momentum and this proves that CB momentum plays a roll....
It is the CB's forward momentum that causes the rubbing friction. With sharper angles the momentum is carried through the OB causing the rubbing friction to change the exit angle.
The OB follows the exact path that the CB is in line with when the contact ends.
inside spin causes the CB to hug the inside of the OB after initial contact and shortens the angle and outside spin causes the CB to push through and widens the angle. draw pulls the CB away and tends to better keep the natural angle and follow tends to push the CB through the OB and widen the angle, but all of this is contingent upon the cut angle and speed of the shot.
/Combinations of different spin will have varying effects....
You can actually draw in a way that causes the angle to be widened, if you have just a slight angle and strike the CB hard enough to keep forward momentum and this proves that CB momentum plays a roll....
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Well, if you draw a line between the center of the cue ball and the center of the object ball during the entire time of the ball-ball collision, that line will pivot much less than 5 degrees. But we see up to 5 degrees of throw. Are those observations consistent with your theory?