A ball in good condition can throw an inch per diamond. That's a few inches for an average shot and half a foot for a long shot.
pj
chgo
I'm glad I never have to play with balls in good condition.
re
phx
A ball in good condition can throw an inch per diamond. That's a few inches for an average shot and half a foot for a long shot.
pj
chgo
Sounds right to me. Top players often use english to throw balls in order to play position in tight quarters. Hitting a fuller ball with helping english will enable you to develop a better feel of the cue ball. It's a very advantageous way of learning to play. If you would practice the amount you can throw a ball, and develop a good feel for this you will bring your game to another level. It is certainly worth learning, and you won't be disappointed with the results.I don't know if you mean it this way, but the transferred spin doesn't change the path of the object ball. The OB's path is changed only by (and during) contact with the CB; the transferred spin is a side effect.
pj
chgo
Aahh a world without friction![]()
I thought that more spin would break friction faster producing less throw. I think that a slow spinning cue ball is more likely to produce throw. I agree about the softer speeds.
randyg
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball.
Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.
You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
So, applying spin on a given shot will have no impact on the path the object ball takes?
Cool...that's gonna make this game a lot easier.
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lets get ron to escrow 10k and i will do the same.
we will set up an object ball, then a blocker ball at some distance between the object ball and the cueball.
set it up so that you can see the object ball, but that there is no way to see enough of it to cut it in.
now apply the appropriate english and speed and try to make it.
case closed. that disproves all of his theories about cueball deflection and subconcious aiming (as it would be IMPOSSIBLE for ANY cut shot to make the ball).
I will send wiring instructions for the 10k, or he can buy-out now for 5.
Read all the posts. Good analytical stuff. It appears about half of the posters can indeed throw an OB, including myself. The rest of the non throwers will throw someday when they believe they can. Reminds me of the college professor who on the first day warned all the deer hunters to not argue about a bullet rising. Science professor! Theoretically it doesn't happen, his argument. Trust me, bullets rise and fall, much like airplanes. He knew he would never convert us to his thinking and would not address it. He was an older fellow!Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball.
Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.
You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
This is my understanding.randyg:Johnnyt:
... the more spin and the softer you hit the ball the more it will throw. You can put spin on the CB yet hit it so hard that it won't throw much or at all.
I thought that more spin would break friction faster producing less throw. I think that a slow spinning cue ball is more likely to produce throw. I agree about the softer speeds.
pjhttp://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#maximum
- Both CIT and SIT are larger at slower speeds.
- CIT increases with cut angle, but levels off at higher cut angles.
- CIT is larger for stun shots.
- CIT is larger for stun shots close to a 1/2-ball hit (30-degree cut angle)
- SIT is maximum for stun and a medium amount of sidespin
- SIT is larger, and most sensitive to sidespin, with stun shots.
- Inside English increases CIT at small cut angles.
- Outside English can create SIT that overcomes CIT.
- Outside English creates maximum SIT at small cut angles.
- "Gearing" outside English results in absolutely no throw.
- For a stun shot, the amount of CIT is independent of speed at small cut angles.
- For a stun shot, CIT is largest in the half-ball hit range (30-degree cut angle range).
- For a stun shot, at larger cut angles, CIT is larger for slower speeds.
- For a half-ball hit, throw is greatest for a stun shot with no sidespin or with 10% outside English.
- For 50% outside English with a half-ball hit, there is no throw.
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball.
Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.
You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
Gosh, DP, that's a little harsh. It seems that both Mike Sigel and Irving Crane also do/did not believe in throw. Maybe there is something in the water in western New York.Lol, that's what it would take, to make object ball throw impossible. I don't know who the original poster was talking to, but he needs to take some basic physics courses before spewing out garbage like that.
I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here, so just to be clear:Jaden:
If you have a sharp cut, the CB doesn't rebound straight off of the OB, it pushes through the OB
I completely disagree with you Bob. :angry:If pool players had to have knowledge of geometry and physics before talking about geometry and physics, all of the aiming threads would disappear.
And US workplace productivity would increase dramatically.If pool players had to have knowledge of geometry and physics before talking about geometry and physics, all of the aiming threads would disappear.
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball.
Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron. You are cutting the ball in every time, either by deflection or subconsiously aiming at a cut.
You don't believe either? Try setting up a shot that requires a slight cut to the pocket. Strike the cueball straight into the object ball, such that the cueball stops *dead*, attempt to "throw" the ball into the pocket. One of two things will happen: the cueball stops dead and the object ball moves straight forward (no throw) missing the pocket, or the cueball drifts/stuns to the side and the object ball goes toward the pocket (you just cut the ball in, no throw involved!)
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
It is the CB's forward momentum that causes the rubbing friction. With sharper angles the momentum is carried through the OB causing the rubbing friction to change the exit angle.I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here, so just to be clear:
Throw (and transferred spin) is produced by the rubbing friction between the CB and OB surfaces as they're in contact with each other. Their surfaces rub against each other in opposite directions along the tangent line - none of this friction force is directed "through" the OB (along the CB's initial path) and none of the CB's forward momentum is part of the force that throws/spins the OB. All of the CB's forward momentum that is transferred to the OB is directed along the "pre-throw" OB path - this path is only changed by the rubbing friction.
pj
chgo
Well, if you draw a line between the center of the cue ball and the center of the object ball during the entire time of the ball-ball collision, that line will pivot much less than 5 degrees. But we see up to 5 degrees of throw. Are those observations consistent with your theory?... The OB follows the exact path that the CB is in line with when the contact ends. ...