Is Such a Thing as A 1pocket Concept?

[JimS]

There's been some posts in this thread that are pretty disrespectful of Freddy. I don't like smart ass's that disrespect legends. I don't know squat about one pocket or banks but I know that a player who has become a legend deserves respect and does not deserve a load of crap from anybody.

 

[Tommy-D]

> No disrespect taken from your response,and hopefully you didn't percieve any from me. I understand that this is probably pretty hot info,but I figured it was worth a try,maybe you'll elaborate some without dropping the whole thing on me,LOL. Tommy D.

 

[freddy the beard]

My respose to Mike's PM

one pocket concepts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Freddy
upon reading the last couple of threads. I just have to pipe in. I've been playing one pocket for about 3-4 years. In the last year or two, I've started to get quite a collection of accu stats tapes, instuctional tapes (Gradys stuff, also billy incordona's tape) and any books or written stuff about the game. Basically because I wanted to really learn the game. I know the best way to learn is to start playing with guys that know the game, so being from Michigan I started going down to Hall of Fame and started watching and playing anyone I could. Anyway to make a long story short I found someone in the know and suddenly the light bulbs popped on!!!!!!!!! Stuff like leaving your opponite up table, blocking banking lanes, leaving problem clusters near their hole, all kinds of stuff like that. Once I started learning this stuff (and granted I've only barely scatched the surface) I started really watching and more importantly listening to the commentary on my accu stats tapes. You with out a doubt do the best job commentating on those matches, even if it's a boring match I still picked up stuff just listening. So my thumbs up to you. I guess reading all the trash talk kind of irritated me. Anyway keep up the good work
Mike L

Mike originally PM'd me this message. This was my response to him:

Finally, somebody is starting to get it! I would like to ask you to post this exact message on the 1pkt concept thread if you would. Maybe the lights will go on for some others.

Keep on thinkin',
the Beard

 

[jrhendy]

There's been some posts in this thread that are pretty disrespectful of Freddy. I don't like smart ass's that disrespect legends. I don't know squat about one pocket or banks but I know that a player who has become a legend deserves respect and does not deserve a load of crap from anybody.

I enjoy Freddie's stories and insights as much as anyone else, but the number of negative responses to the "Concept" thread show that many of us think the idea of a concept for one pocket as explained in his thread is a little over the top. The whole idea of this form is for pool players to interact and exchange ideas and opinions. His "Concept" thread drew a lot of responses and that is a good thing. There are some positive, some that are negative, and some that are downright stupid. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. If he is a legend yet, this website has had a lot to do with it, and whoever might be a legend to some, may not be to others. That might be an interesting topic for a new thread. John Henderson

 

[lfigueroa]

There's been some posts in this thread that are pretty disrespectful of Freddy. I don't like smart ass's that disrespect legends. I don't know squat about one pocket or banks but I know that a player who has become a legend deserves respect and does not deserve a load of crap from anybody.

IMO, we all have different definitions and criteria for the word "legend." IOW, someone you might call a legend, I might not. And I would even be within my rights to go as far as have a negative opinion of that same individual or something he might have said. So for that reason, just because one person believes someone is entitled to the appellation of "legend" does not mean he should get a free pass from anyone else.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I enjoy Freddie's stories and insights as much as anyone else, but the number of negative responses to the "Concept" thread show that many of us think the idea of a concept for one pocket as explained in his thread is a little over the top. The whole idea of this form is for pool players to interact and exchange ideas and opinions. His "Concept" thread drew a lot of responses and that is a good thing. There are some positive, some that are negative, and some that are downright stupid. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. If he is a legend yet, this website has had a lot to do with it, and whoever might be a legend to some, may not be to others. That might be an interesting topic for a new thread. John Henderson

Well "the concept" concept is a little self serving. It's like, "I have secret knowledge you don't have, ha, ha." Or maybe, "I'm Yoda and you are not."

Personally, I ain't buyin' it, not for $30k, not for 30 cents. My own experience, study, common sense, and dozens of professional players I've listen to about the game over the years tells me it's malarkey -- sorry if that offends anyone.

Lou Figueroa

 

[doubleteersc]

1 pocket concept

Hello everybody! My name is Tony. Im very familiar with who Freddie and Artie are as well as a lot of the Great Legends that play this game. I myself am a very serious student of someone who learned from both Freddie and Artie. He learned from Bugs and Cannonball as well as playing most of the road players that came through Besinger's. He was one of the guys that worked there and form what I hear from several sources was one of those "guys that slept on the back and could wake up and PLAY and beat most people that walked in the door wanting a game". Freddie knows who I'm talking about.

Anyways, I definitely know what Freddie is saying as far as the " 1 pocket concept " is concerned. I may not have been playing or even gotten to see Freddie or Artie play in their prime, but this concept is something I've been priviledged enough to get a small glipse of. I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT IT IS !!! But my teacher and very close friend knows about this as it was passed to him. But even he still to this day says that it still eludes him to some degree or else Im sure he would be one todays top 1 pocket players. I think the way the game is played , even by some Top players today does not show this concept. I admit my teacher is always looking for a shot to get out but I have seen him apply this concept when he is really working on his game. I wish I understood what he has tried to explain to me, but even he says it is something that will take him years more to grasp at a top level.

I do believe that there is definitely a between understanding and knowing Moves/Strategy and this 1 pocket concept, which some of the members have already noted.

All I can say is that Freddie knows what most dont even get a glimpse of in a lifetime of playing the game. I wont speak on this concept as I do not feel even close to being Qualified to talk about it. I understand that this was passed on to more than just " any Joe Schmo " who asked. My teacher was very close friends with Artie and sparred regularly with Freddie. And that info was passed form one close friend to another to my understanding. I can see the huge differnce in the way my teacher plays the game and the way everyone else does. I must say it is a thing of beauty. And the funny thing is that in our pool room, nobody thinks he plays the game "correctly".
When it comes to the passing of this info to other people, I understand what Freddie is aying. Its not that he wants to take it to the grave. But He at least want to learn himself the concept of a game that he probably regrets never putting the same passion into when he was younger. And no offense, but I would feel the same way if I had spend a lifetime "enlightening " myself and learning something that not too have learned, and wanting to exchange it with someone who has done the same and also has a lifetime of knowlege to give in return.

I too would very much value the "concept" which Freddie holds on to so close. But unlike a lot of people ( no disrespect intended to any members here ) respect what he is looking for in exchange. Hopefully some day I will be priveleged enough to learn the "concept" of both straights and 1 pocket.

My hats off to you Freddie!! I would get pretty vexed with whats been said on this very interesting thread !!!

 

[hemicudas]

Hello everybody! My name is Tony. Im very familiar with who Freddie and Artie are as well as a lot of the Great Legends that play this game. I myself am a very serious student of someone who learned from both Freddie and Artie. He learned from Bugs and Cannonball as well as playing most of the road players that came through Besinger's. He was one of the guys that worked there and form what I hear from several sources was one of those "guys that slept on the back and could wake up and PLAY and beat most people that walked in the door wanting a game". Freddie knows who I'm talking about.

Anyways, I definitely know what Freddie is saying as far as the " 1 pocket concept " is concerned. I may not have been playing or even gotten to see Freddie or Artie play in their prime, but this concept is something I've been priviledged enough to get a small glipse of. I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT IT IS !!! But my teacher and very close friend knows about this as it was passed to him. But even he still to this day says that it still eludes him to some degree or else Im sure he would be one todays top 1 pocket players. I think the way the game is played , even by some Top players today does not show this concept. I admit my teacher is always looking for a shot to get out but I have seen him apply this concept when he is really working on his game. I wish I understood what he has tried to explain to me, but even he says it is something that will take him years more to grasp at a top level.

I do believe that there is definitely a between understanding and knowing Moves/Strategy and this 1 pocket concept, which some of the members have already noted.

All I can say is that Freddie knows what most dont even get a glimpse of in a lifetime of playing the game. I wont speak on this concept as I do not feel even close to being Qualified to talk about it. I understand that this was passed on to more than just " any Joe Schmo " who asked. My teacher was very close friends with Artie and sparred regularly with Freddie. And that info was passed form one close friend to another to my understanding. I can see the huge differnce in the way my teacher plays the game and the way everyone else does. I must say it is a thing of beauty. And the funny thing is that in our pool room, nobody thinks he plays the game "correctly".
When it comes to the passing of this info to other people, I understand what Freddie is aying. Its not that he wants to take it to the grave. But He at least want to learn himself the concept of a game that he probably regrets never putting the same passion into when he was younger. And no offense, but I would feel the same way if I had spend a lifetime "enlightening " myself and learning something that not too have learned, and wanting to exchange it with someone who has done the same and also has a lifetime of knowlege to give in return.

I too would very much value the "concept" which Freddie holds on to so close. But unlike a lot of people ( no disrespect intended to any members here ) respect what he is looking for in exchange. Hopefully some day I will be priveleged enough to learn the "concept" of both straights and 1 pocket.

My hats off to you Freddie!! I would get pretty vexed with whats been said on this very interesting thread !!!

Would your instructor happen to play at Red Shoes Billiards?

 

[doubleteersc]

No .. were in Vegas. Sorry !

 

[Jimmy M.]

I hold little hope for that exchange to ever work out because I am afraid that there might not be anybody left alive with that straight-pool info. Rockford's, Dallas West is a for-sure exception, but he has no real interest in learning 1pkt. I drool at the prospect of exchanging info with Dallas. I will even go so far as to also illuminate whomever can put the Dallas/Beard exchange together.

the Beard

I don't mean any disrespect with this but just merely stating an opinion/observation. Perhaps the reason that there might not be anyone left alive with that kind of straight-pool info is because of the old-school idea of keeping anything you learn/know about pool a secret; which seems to be the same approach you're employing. It's ironic that the people who know very little are all too willing to scream in your face about what they [think they] know, while the people who actually might know something aren't willing to share it. I remember when I was a kid, on several occasions, being told, "now don't tell this to anyone", when a better player was giving me advice. While my knowledge of any pool game would most likely be eclipsed by the likes of yourself or Grady, I always try to share what I can when asked by someone who genuinely wants to learn something ... though, they have to play pretty bad for me to actually be able to help.

 

[billychips]

question???

Atttempts to wheedle the real 1pkt concept out of me, or to get me to prove that it even exists, will get nowhere. I'm sure that such attempts on some of the other code-keepers like Grady, Ronnie, Artie, J. Fusco, etc. will bear no fruit from them either. I will only offer an even-up trade for the straight-pool concept, with the straight-pool provider having to put his info up for perusal and validation first. I hold little hope for that exchange to ever work out because I am afraid that there might not be anybody left alive with that straight-pool info. Rockford's, Dallas West is a for-sure exception, but he has no real interest in learning 1pkt. I drool at the prospect of exchanging info with Dallas. I will even go so far as to also illuminate whomever can put the Dallas/Beard exchange together.

the Beard

Does Scott Frost have it??? I know you are going to say Corey does not. So, assuming Scott has "it," why does Corey drill Scott when they play?

 

[lfigueroa]

Hello everybody! My name is Tony. Im very familiar with who Freddie and Artie are as well as a lot of the Great Legends that play this game. I myself am a very serious student of someone who learned from both Freddie and Artie. He learned from Bugs and Cannonball as well as playing most of the road players that came through Besinger's. He was one of the guys that worked there and form what I hear from several sources was one of those "guys that slept on the back and could wake up and PLAY and beat most people that walked in the door wanting a game". Freddie knows who I'm talking about.

Anyways, I definitely know what Freddie is saying as far as the " 1 pocket concept " is concerned. I may not have been playing or even gotten to see Freddie or Artie play in their prime, but this concept is something I've been priviledged enough to get a small glipse of. I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT IT IS !!! But my teacher and very close friend knows about this as it was passed to him. But even he still to this day says that it still eludes him to some degree or else Im sure he would be one todays top 1 pocket players. I think the way the game is played , even by some Top players today does not show this concept. I admit my teacher is always looking for a shot to get out but I have seen him apply this concept when he is really working on his game. I wish I understood what he has tried to explain to me, but even he says it is something that will take him years more to grasp at a top level.

I do believe that there is definitely a between understanding and knowing Moves/Strategy and this 1 pocket concept, which some of the members have already noted.

All I can say is that Freddie knows what most dont even get a glimpse of in a lifetime of playing the game. I wont speak on this concept as I do not feel even close to being Qualified to talk about it. I understand that this was passed on to more than just " any Joe Schmo " who asked. My teacher was very close friends with Artie and sparred regularly with Freddie. And that info was passed form one close friend to another to my understanding. I can see the huge differnce in the way my teacher plays the game and the way everyone else does. I must say it is a thing of beauty. And the funny thing is that in our pool room, nobody thinks he plays the game "correctly".
When it comes to the passing of this info to other people, I understand what Freddie is aying. Its not that he wants to take it to the grave. But He at least want to learn himself the concept of a game that he probably regrets never putting the same passion into when he was younger. And no offense, but I would feel the same way if I had spend a lifetime "enlightening " myself and learning something that not too have learned, and wanting to exchange it with someone who has done the same and also has a lifetime of knowlege to give in return.

I too would very much value the "concept" which Freddie holds on to so close. But unlike a lot of people ( no disrespect intended to any members here ) respect what he is looking for in exchange. Hopefully some day I will be priveleged enough to learn the "concept" of both straights and 1 pocket.

My hats off to you Freddie!! I would get pretty vexed with whats been said on this very interesting thread !!!

Let's try it this way: 1pocket has often been called "chess on a pool table." But just as chess has strategy, hanging pawns, luft, fianchetto, epaulette mate, double attacks, en passant, desparato pieces, passed pawns, gambits. Alekhine's Gun, smother mates, castling, opening, middle, and end games, etc., etc., etc., if some guy comes along and says, "I have 'The Chess Concept' for $30K" I'd run for the hills. I'd be laughing all the way, but I'd still be laughing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I don't mean any disrespect with this but just merely stating an opinion/observation. Perhaps the reason that there might not be anyone left alive with that kind of straight-pool info is because of the old-school idea of keeping anything you learn/know about pool a secret; which seems to be the same approach you're employing. It's ironic that the people who know very little are all too willing to scream in your face about what they [think they] know, while the people who actually might know something aren't willing to share it. I remember when I was a kid, on several occasions, being told, "now don't tell this to anyone", when a better player was giving me advice. While my knowledge of any pool game would most likely be eclipsed by the likes of yourself or Grady, I always try to share what I can when asked by someone who genuinely wants to learn something ... though, they have to play pretty bad for me to actually be able to help.

You're absolutely right, Jimmy M. But you still have some dinosaurs out there that want to take what they know to the grave, or claim to have secret knowledge they'll take to the grave to enhance whatever "legend" they're trying to perpetuate. Everyone (well, almost everyone) here is trying to share what they know and what they learn. It torques my jaws (just a bit) when someone trades on whatever goodwill they've built up and says, "Believe in The Force, Luke."

Well, Luke, there ain't no Yoda and there ain't no force, but it sure did make George Lucas a ton of dough, didn't it...

Lou Figueroa

 

[bruin70]

Every top player has his own "Concept", n

imo, players develop an indivisual strategy within a concept.

 

[jay helfert]

I like to see u match up with `suirrel`who is 10 years older than u.It will be a learning experience and fun to watch the display of the ` older concepts` and we do not have to spend any money to buy the tapes to learn the `concepts`

If they play, I'm betting on John. I've watched his act (and played him) for a long long time. He knows the game and plays well under pressure. What we used to call a stand up player.

Now John, can I get a ball and the break?

 

[doubleteersc]

Let's try it this way: 1pocket has often been called "chess on a pool table." But just as chess has strategy, hanging pawns, luft, fianchetto, epaulette mate, double attacks, en passant, desparato pieces, passed pawns, gambits. Alekhine's Gun, smother mates, castling, opening, middle, and end games, etc., etc., etc., if some guy comes along and says, "I have 'The Chess Concept' for $30K" I'd run for the hills. I'd be laughing all the way, but I'd still be laughing.

Lou Figueroa

I understand what you are saying, but those are moves and strategies. Not a "Concept" that will set you worlds apart from the opposition. The likeness of chess and 1 pocket are very close IMO. Thry both have strategies and moves that you need to knwo in order to be able to play a good game. But there are those few "Bobby Fischers" in the world who have an inate understanding of the game that they actually pioneer new moves and strategies based on thier philosophy of the game. Im sure everyone here has a philosophy, but most of those boil down to really fundamental building blocks of playing one pocket at an average level. Some are a little more advanced than others, but this concept is what set apart the true leagends of this game such as Artie, Freddie, Jersey Red, Ronnnie Allen, Grady, and even those that paved the way for those players. If you read grady's book "Bet High and Kiss Low" there is an excerpt in the begiining where an old timer teaches Grady some indisclosed fine points of how to play , after Grady had lost to another player. I believe a few days later they played and the other player lost thousands to Grady and couldnt understand how his game could skyrocket so fast. Especially after this guy thought he knew Grady's game. Now whether that old timer gave Grady the "concept" I cannot say, but there must be some validity to this idea. Especially since players like Artie and Ronnie Allen could give sucjh phenomenal spots to top players and still not lose. I cant speak from expeience and I know I'm going off of here say from a friend and teacher but I can assure you, this is a very reliable source.
I guess basically to boil it down, I Believe there IS a "concept" to one pocket. Everyone will have their opinion, and unless exposed to this "concept" at all, I would expect most players to agree with you. It doesnt mean that if you dont knwo this you cant become a Top
Player, but it sure would be priceless knowledge to have !!

 

[jay helfert]

I have a great deal of respect for Freddie, and if he talks about a One Pocket "concept" I'm all ears. Freddie has seen and played and lost to the best. lol.

I have played a little One Pocket in my time too, and was never more than a decent "shortstop" and I know it. An observation I would make, is that I typically would adjust my style to the player I was gambling with. I would play away from their strengths and probe their weaknesses. It was my own "concept" and worked well enough for me to win about 90% (or more) of the time.

Yes, certain players had their own style of play. Which you could call their own concept of One Pocket. Ronnie Allen was always looking for a way to run eight and out. His style was almost always highly aggessive, looking for ways to move multiple balls toward his hole. He definitely influenced the players of his generation. Ed Kelly and Cornbread played a tighter game than Ronnie (actually everyone did), hiding the cue ball and looking to pick off a few balls at a time. They would shoot and duck.

U.J. Puckett was the best around at playing one and stop One Pocket. That is you can only make one ball at a time. Your turn was over after you made a ball. I never saw him lose at this game. And he had no chance playing regular One Pocket with Ronnie. But at this one game, he had the right "concept".

From what I've seen of Grady's play over the years, he was looking to get you in an 'end game' scenario. With two or three balls on the table, Grady out moved everybody. So he had a different "concept". Only Efren baffles me as to what his concept is. I can watch him play ten different opponents and play ten different ways. The best that I can tell, he is also adjusting his game to his opponent. I guess he learned that "concept" from me, so he owes me 30K. Someone please tell him to pay up.

 

[the kirkwood ki]

Grady holding out?

"Why dont you guys put some heat on Grady and see how far you get? Considering he cant play great anymore, but he still has knowledge that others dont have, he will probably be as stonewalling as I have been."

Hey Freddy. Does that mean when Grady is giving lessons, seminars, and putting out his tapes he is holding out on people and no one will ever get the "true concept" of one pocket out of him? It seems to me that Grady is always willing to help people out and share all of that knowledge with people.

 

[JoeyA]

Grady Mathews

"Why dont you guys put some heat on Grady and see how far you get? Considering he cant play great anymore, but he still has knowledge that others dont have, he will probably be as stonewalling as I have been."

Hey Freddy. Does that mean when Grady is giving lessons, seminars, and putting out his tapes he is holding out on people and no one will ever get the "true concept" of one pocket out of him? It seems to me that Grady is always willing to help people out and share all of that knowledge with people.

Grady Mathew has always been straight forward and honest in every pool lesson I have seen him give. In fact I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that Grady was dishonest. They might be able to say that he gets a little steamed with do-do birds but that's Grady.

His instructional tapes are a breath of fresh air.

With Grady, what you see is what you get.

When Grady hits a shot on one of his intructional tapes, he doesn't choreograph it, trying the shot over and over until he makes it. Nobody makes all of the shots all of the time and often the shots Grady is trying to teach you are advanced shots and they don't split the pocket everytime. But when they do....

The bottom line is you get a lot for your buck when you buy Grady's tapes or his pool lessons. Not only do you get valuable information that will elevate your game, you get volumes of quality shots that you can put into your arsenal. Grady holds nothing back. Does that mean that if you spend some quality time with pool lessons that he may "accidentally" lay another pearl of wisdom on you? No, but often when you are getting lessons and enough shots are made and seen, a particular situation will come up that will be appropriate to discuss the nuance of that particular situation that normally would not have been covered in an ordinary short lesson.

Grady is DA MAN!


JoeyA

 

[the kirkwood ki]

Thanks.

Grady Mathew has always been straight forward and honest in every pool lesson I have seen him give. In fact I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that Grady was dishonest. They might be able to say that he gets a little steamed with do-do birds but that's Grady.

His instructional tapes are a breath of fresh air.

With Grady, what you see is what you get.

When Grady hits a shot on one of his intructional tapes, he doesn't choreograph it, trying the shot over and over until he makes it. Nobody makes all of the shots all of the time and often the shots Grady is trying to teach you are advanced shots and they don't split the pocket everytime. But when they do....

The bottom line is you get a lot for your buck when you buy Grady's tapes or his pool lessons. Not only do you get valuable information that will elevate your game, you get volumes of quality shots that you can put into your arsenal. Grady holds nothing back. Does that mean that if you spend some quality time with pool lessons that he may "accidentally" lay another pearl of wisdom on you? No, but often when you are getting lessons and enough shots are made and seen, a particular situation will come up that will be appropriate to discuss the nuance of that particular situation that normally would not have been covered in an ordinary short lesson.

Grady is DA MAN!


JoeyA

That's what I thought.