Is the Game of Pool Geometrically Correct and/or Complete?

[CJ Wiley]

the same principles apply to a geometrically perfect pool table.

We know darn well, that pool is not a perfect game. Too many external factors come into play that "modify" it, e.g. squirt, throw.
If it pool were geometrically correct then why is angle of incidence hardly ever equal to angle of refection?

Give me a break, CJ.
Is your question merely for the sake of self-promotion again?

Actually squirt, throw are perfect factors too. Of course tables vary with cloth, and the humidity makes a difference.......but that has nothing to do with the pure game....and the game is complete and perfect.

The reason I know this is because any angle can be created to make any shot....and all that needs to change is altering where the tip contacts the cue ball. This is evident on a billiards table, but the same principles apply to a geometrically perfect pool table.

 

[Mr. Bond]

On something I'm going to put into a nice, tart pie and then eat it? I don't think so.

Aww come on Bob, an extra toe or two never hurt anyone.


You know why they call it rhubarb?

Cuz rupaul was already taken.

 

[Dunnn51]

Life

Yes, indeed!!!...the game really is the teacher. and, yes, it teachers much more than just math.....it's a microcosm for life.

all you really need to know about life; you can learn on a playground during 8th grade recess. Think about it,...................

ahhh, If they only told me then.

LIFE is the teacher, (pool is justa close 2nd ! )

 

[CJ Wiley]

I use pool to satisfy this "artistic desire".

all you really need to know about life; you can learn on a playground during 8th grade recess. Think about it,...................

ahhh, If they only told me then.

LIFE is the teacher, (pool is justa close 2nd ! )

There's no better way to understand life at it's deepest levels than through analogies, parables, and comparisons (to things we already have experience and understanding of).

I've always thought of pool as a way of self and subconscious expression. Some {people} play music, write poems, draw/take pictures, create business plans, teach, martial arts, govern, sing, dance, etc. - I use pool to satisfy this "artistic desire".

Pool, to me, is also a microcosm of life in general with scenarios like "risk/reward", "win/win", "win/lose", "goal setting", "human nature tests", "structured rules", "honesty/dishonesty", "systems & controls", "capitalism", "money management", "socialism", "democracy", "social skills", compassion, understanding, problem solving, meditation, hand/eye coordination, calibrating people, gambling, drug/alcohol reality, reading road maps, etc.

I've learned a lot about life, people, human tendencies, and especially myself playing and competing at pocket billiards (and other games/sports). I'm told humans can learn life just living "life on life's terms," and I'm not sure it could be as well rounded and diversified as matching up and competing. If you can survive in the greatest pool rooms you certainly have a head start on those that just learned in class room environments.

I'm not sure if I love pool, have a passion for it, or was just destined and born to play. Can any of us honestly answer that question? One thing's for sure, we've had "life experiences" that we could get no other way. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Dunnn51]

ok CJ,

Ya got me with the post above.
A Verrry good analogy that I happen to agree whole-heartedly with as you describe many thoughts/insights to pool/life.

IF you ever find "the answer" to your question,... please don't tell anyone!

(after all: it just could be 23 ! )

 

[CJ Wiley]

These numbers are all reflected in pool, by diamonds, pockets, rails, and sections.

ok CJ,

Ya got me with the post above.
A Verrry good analogy that I happen to agree whole-heartedly with as you describe many thoughts/insights to pool/life.

IF you ever find "the answer" to your question,... please don't tell anyone!

(after all: it just could be 23 ! )

Actually from my experience, for pool, the number 37 is the key number. The number 37 creates the "triangle" of all numbers.

For Example:

37 times 3 is 111
37 times 6 is 222
37 times 9 is 333
37 times 12 is 444
37 times 15 is 555
37 times 18 is 666
37 times 21 is 777
37 times 24 is 888
37 times 27 is 999

The number 37 creates the "perfect triangle" of all numbers."]The number 37 creates the "perfect triangle" of all numbers in pool. The number 37 creates the "perfect triangle" of all numbers

These numbers are all reflected in pool, by diamonds, pockets, rails, balls, and sections. When these factors are all understood the perfection of the game is "downloaded" into the subconscious and the game starts to actually express it's self through the player.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[His Boy Elroy]

The variables involved, CIT, squirt/swerve, etc... are either easily adjusted for or are negligible in the vast majority of shots.

Even on tight tables a few adjustments for specific situations is all that is needed. For CIT, it's avoid softer shots with lots of spin or use outside to help cancel out the CIT.

For squirt, use BHE with a standard shaft and parallel shifting with slight adjustments for longer shots with LD tech.

It IS geometrically correct once you know these little things to adjust for the idiosyncrasies. There are many more variables, that on occasion will affect outcomes, but we emphasize them more than we should because it can lead to a loss in a game that requires perfection at the highest levels.

Jaden

You know... I've read more than a few of your posts, and from what I read, I'll assume you're an excellent player; therefore, I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me how you easily adjust for squirt and swerve.

You see; I have no problem finding the shot line and aiming if the cut is 30 degrees or less. It doesn't matter how long the shot is. It's never been a problem - not one bit. I don't go to pool rooms and my home table for 43 years was an 8 footer. I thought maybe I'd be put in my place if I played on a 9 footer. Well; my 8 footer is in a dumpster somewhere, (R.I.P) and a 9 footer with 4 - 3/8" pockets was set up in my basement yesterday morning. I've played on it for a few hours and ... Well...aiming is still real easy.

So Jaden... I just told you about something many players (claim) is difficult for them that I find easy. You've told me about something you (claim) is easy that I find difficult. I FIND ADJUSTING FOR SQUIRT AND SWERVE TO BE REALLY DIFFICULT. In fact, banks and kicks aside, improper adjusting for squirt and swerve is the only reason why I miss balls. I'll bet I've missed a million because I improperly adjusted for squirt and swerve.

As I said, I have no doubt you're an excellent player. It comes through in your posts. It's just my belief that anyone who finds adjusting for squirt and swerve to be easy must be the best player in the world. I'm not doubting you are. I'd just wish you'd prove it. So why don't you post a video on you tube. Put the cue ball on the head string. Shoot the ball straight down the length of the table. Most players who do this will unintentionally hit the cue ball a tad off center, resulting in squirt. In your case, make an adjustment and hit the cue ball straight in the center with a perfectly straight stroke. No squirt or swerve will result and the ball should come straight back and hit your tip. If this type of an adjustment is easy for you, do it 100 times in a row. As I said, If you can do this you're the best player in the world. Don't get the idea I'm doubting you.

So if you're not going that route and yet you're still adjusting for squirt and swerve, you must be a T.O.I. Practitioner. So am I. I believe it's the best route to ball pocketing success, but it takes much practice and will always be a work in progress. If you find T.O.I easy, you must be the best player in the world.

 

[TCo]

CJ - did you travel to Colorado recently and make too large of a purchase?

Other fun facts about 37:

Normal human body temperature is 37 degrees Celsius
The human hand is moved by 37 skeletal muscles
37 is the atomic number of rubidium
I-37 is located in Texas, and it stretches from Corpus Christi to San Antonio

"rubidium is the teacher"

Get well soon,

 

[Jaden]

I"m sorry I don't understand this???

You know... I've read more than a few of your posts, and from what I read, I'll assume you're an excellent player; therefore, I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me how you easily adjust for squirt and swerve.

You see; I have no problem finding the shot line and aiming if the cut is 30 degrees or less. It doesn't matter how long the shot is. It's never been a problem - not one bit. I don't go to pool rooms and my home table for 43 years was an 8 footer. I thought maybe I'd be put in my place if I played on a 9 footer. Well; my 8 footer is in a dumpster somewhere, (R.I.P) and a 9 footer with 4 - 3/8" pockets was set up in my basement yesterday morning. I've played on it for a few hours and ... Well...aiming is still real easy.

So Jaden... I just told you about something many players (claim) is difficult for them that I find easy. You've told me about something you (claim) is easy that I find difficult. I FIND ADJUSTING FOR SQUIRT AND SWERVE TO BE REALLY DIFFICULT. In fact, banks and kicks aside, improper adjusting for squirt and swerve is the only reason why I miss balls. I'll bet I've missed a million because I improperly adjusted for squirt and swerve.

As I said, I have no doubt you're an excellent player. It comes through in your posts. It's just my belief that anyone who finds adjusting for squirt and swerve to be easy must be the best player in the world. I'm not doubting you are. I'd just wish you'd prove it. So why don't you post a video on you tube. Put the cue ball on the head string. Shoot the ball straight down the length of the table. Most players who do this will unintentionally hit the cue ball a tad off center, resulting in squirt. In your case, make an adjustment and hit the cue ball straight in the center with a perfectly straight stroke. No squirt or swerve will result and the ball should come straight back and hit your tip. If this type of an adjustment is easy for you, do it 100 times in a row. As I said, If you can do this you're the best player in the world. Don't get the idea I'm doubting you.

So if you're not going that route and yet you're still adjusting for squirt and swerve, you must be a T.O.I. Practitioner. So am I. I believe it's the best route to ball pocketing success, but it takes much practice and will always be a work in progress. If you find T.O.I easy, you must be the best player in the world.

How in the world would shooting a straight shot with no english perfectly straight illustrate that adjusting for squirt is simple once you understand how???

All that would show is that someone has a straight stroke and good aim.

If you have no problem aiming but have difficulty adjusting for english, you should be able to do what you asked me to do without any problems.

It would be better to show shooting shots with maximum sidespin to show that adjusting for sidespin is easy once you know how.

Shooting softer shots with lots of spin will NEVER be a 100% proposition, nor will any shot.

If you do the right things, and focus on the right things, you will be able to increase your consistency for doing so and be able to add more shots to your repertoire.

Answer me this, do you use LD tech or standard shafts for your normal play?

I can show you how to easily adjust for spin on the vast majority of shots if you'd like.

A while back I actually did a live BHE demonstration on Ustream where I had someone call me on the phone and without moving my bridge hand or adjusting my aim, I had the caller tell me what english to put on the ball and made it several times in a row for multiple shots.

This was to demonstrate that aiming center ball and just pivoting the arm that holds the back of the cue is enough to adjust for most shots on the table.

Again, softer shots and some conditions require additional adjustments but these are few and far between.

It is the same for LD tech, although it is more often that adjustment is required with LD tech, but the adjustment required is far more minute.

Also LD tech requires a starting point much closer to parallel to center ball aiming.

If you have a standard shaft I offer this challenge to you.

Aim center ball and once you have the right aimline, leave your bridge in place and shift your rear arm so that the tip is pointed where you want the sidespin on the CB to be. If you are also using draw or follow, elevate or lower your bridge so that the cue is as level as possible to minimize swerve. Then stroke straight through the ball.

This is the only thing I didn't figure out on my own. Efren showed it to me in 99.

Now you have to bridge at your cues pivot point to be the most accurate you can be and I can show you how to find it, but for a quick demonstration, if you have a standard shaft it should be close to your natural bridge position.

Try that and see what happens.

Jaden

It's not easy to adjust to this type of system as rotating the rear arm can lead to not straight follow through. Also, certain types of stances can get in the way. The best type of stance to use is to find the aimline standing up, step with the front inside part of your rear heal into the aimline and then step forward with your front foot about a shoulder's width apart with your toe pointing towards the OB contact point.

Then when you bend over, you leave plenty of room between your body and the cue for any adjustments and your body is in a good alignment.

 

[book collector]

The most anmazing thing I have found out about the game in years of research is that one man in just a few years discovered a large portion of what we know about the game today . It was in the 1820s and the mans name was Francois Mingaud, a political prisoner held in a castle that had a billiard table in it .
Earl Strickland did not invent the jump shot , Mingaud was using it 135 or so years before he was born.
He had a published book that diagrammed almost all of the amazing shots we use today.
I believe pool is geometrically correct on a 1x2 table , I don't believe it is complete.
There are many old straight rail billiard shots that would be of great use in one pocket , Some have been all but forgotten since the generation that last used them competitively has died off.

 

[book collector]

...................................................

 

[His Boy Elroy]

How in the world would shooting a straight shot with no english perfectly straight illustrate that adjusting for squirt is simple once you understand how???

All that would show is that someone has a straight stroke and good aim.

If you have no problem aiming but have difficulty adjusting for english, you should be able to do what you asked me to do without any problems.

It would be better to show shooting shots with maximum sidespin to show that adjusting for sidespin is easy once you know how.

Shooting softer shots with lots of spin will NEVER be a 100% proposition, nor will any shot.

If you do the right things, and focus on the right things, you will be able to increase your consistency for doing so and be able to add more shots to your repertoire.

Answer me this, do you use LD tech or standard shafts for your normal play?

I can show you how to easily adjust for spin on the vast majority of shots if you'd like.

A while back I actually did a live BHE demonstration on Ustream where I had someone call me on the phone and without moving my bridge hand or adjusting my aim, I had the caller tell me what english to put on the ball and made it several times in a row for multiple shots.

This was to demonstrate that aiming center ball and just pivoting the arm that holds the back of the cue is enough to adjust for most shots on the table.

Again, softer shots and some conditions require additional adjustments but these are few and far between.

It is the same for LD tech, although it is more often that adjustment is required with LD tech, but the adjustment required is far more minute.

Also LD tech requires a starting point much closer to parallel to center ball aiming.

If you have a standard shaft I offer this challenge to you.

Aim center ball and once you have the right aimline, leave your bridge in place and shift your rear arm so that the tip is pointed where you want the sidespin on the CB to be. If you are also using draw or follow, elevate or lower your bridge so that the cue is as level as possible to minimize swerve. Then stroke straight through the ball.

This is the only thing I didn't figure out on my own. Efren showed it to me in 99.

Now you have to bridge at your cues pivot point to be the most accurate you can be and I can show you how to find it, but for a quick demonstration, if you have a standard shaft it should be close to your natural bridge position.

Try that and see what happens.

Jaden

It's not easy to adjust to this type of system as rotating the rear arm can lead to not straight follow through. Also, certain types of stances can get in the way. The best type of stance to use is to find the aimline standing up, step with the front inside part of your rear heal into the aimline and then step forward with your front foot about a shoulder's width apart with your toe pointing towards the OB contact point.

Then when you bend over, you leave plenty of room between your body and the cue for any adjustments and your body is in a good alignment.

LOL... As I said, from reading your posts I suspect you're an excellent player. That's why I picked on you. I guess I haven't read enough of your posts. If you're hanging around with Efren, maybe I'm biting off more than I can chew.

I play with a regular shaft. I've never played with an LD shaft so I can't give an opinion of them. I know how to hit the cue ball the lenghth of the table and have it come back and hit my tip. I Just can't do it every time. It's not easy. Whoever in the world finds that to be the easiest is among the best players in the world.

In fact, I find that deliberately putting squirt on the ball is easier than trying to altogether avoid putting squirt on the ball. That's why I put a touch of inside on the cue ball on most shots. It's not easy putting the exact right amount of squirt on the cue ball every time. Whoever in the world finds that to be the easiest is going to be among the best players in the world


I don't believe that the challenges in shotmaking revolve around things like " line of aim," or "learning to cope with the effects of friction." It's pretty simple. The challenge of shot making revolves around either shooting a center ball and producing no deflection or deliberately shooting a ball with just the right amount of deflection. Doing one or both of those things proficiently is the only thing that will cause balls to drop with consistency....and it ain't easy!

 

[Jaden]

I rarely if EVER don't put side spin.

LOL... As I said, from reading your posts I suspect you're an excellent player. That's why I picked on you. I guess I haven't read enough of your posts. If you're hanging around with Efren, maybe I'm biting off more than I can chew.

I play with a regular shaft. I've never played with an LD shaft so I can't give an opinion of them. I know how to hit the cue ball the lenghth of the table and have it come back and hit my tip. I Just can't do it every time. It's not easy. Whoever in the world finds that to be the easiest is among the best players in the world.

In fact, I find that deliberately putting squirt on the ball is easier than trying to altogether avoid putting squirt on the ball. That's why I put a touch of inside on the cue ball on most shots. It's not easy putting the exact right amount of squirt on the cue ball every time. Whoever in the world finds that to be the easiest is going to be among the best players in the world


I don't believe that the challenges in shotmaking revolve around things like " line of aim," or "learning to cope with the effects of friction." It's pretty simple. The challenge of shot making revolves around either shooting a center ball and producing no deflection or deliberately shooting a ball with just the right amount of deflection. Doing one or both of those things proficiently is the only thing that will cause balls to drop with consistency....and it ain't easy!

You should really try what I suggested if you use a standard shaft.

I rarely if ever DON'T use sidespin of some sort. Inside, outside, it doesn't really matter, but it has less to do with helping to make the shot and more to do with most shots requiring a little bit to aid in cueball placement.

There are very few shots where a little bit of side spin isn't needed or at least helpful with cueball placement.

Some like to use outside spin as helper english on cut shots, it doesn't really matter what you use, you should only be using spin to help with CB placement IMO.

Yes, CIT CAN be a factor and it can be helpful on shots greater than 35-45 degrees to use sidespin to help with that, it's not really necessary though and you still have to know how to adjust for the sidespin to use it accurately.

The tighter the table gets, the more important it is to know how to adjust for squirt/swerve.

Swerve rarely comes into play except on soft shots and shots where a cue is relatively far from perpendicular to the plane of the table. Hence, why I mentioned lowering and elevating your bridge for follow and draw. That helps to minimize swerve, but most people don't do it. Instead, they keep their bridge right at center CB.

Jaden

 

[CJ Wiley]

"when the student is ready the teacher will appear" - The TOI Game is the Teacher

The game isn't "complete" without the player....the teacher isn't "complete" without the student. As is is written "when the student is ready the teacher will appear" - I have to say in my life the right person, at the right time, in the right situation has always appeared to teach me what I've needed to know. Is that "odd," or is that "pool". 'The TOI Game is the Teacher'

The most anmazing thing I have found out about the game in years of research is that one man in just a few years discovered a large portion of what we know about the game today . It was in the 1820s and the mans name was Francois Mingaud, a political prisoner held in a castle that had a billiard table in it .
Earl Strickland did not invent the jump shot , Mingaud was using it 135 or so years before he was born.
He had a published book that diagrammed almost all of the amazing shots we use today.
I believe pool is geometrically correct on a 1x2 table , I don't believe it is complete.
There are many old straight rail billiard shots that would be of great use in one pocket , Some have been all but forgotten since the generation that last used them competitively has died off.

 

[jtaylor996]

Actually from my experience, for pool, the number 37 is the key number. The number 37 creates the "triangle" of all numbers.

For Example:

37 times 3 is 111
37 times 6 is 222
37 times 9 is 333
37 times 12 is 444
37 times 15 is 555
37 times 18 is 666
37 times 21 is 777
37 times 24 is 888
37 times 27 is 999

The number 37 creates the "perfect triangle" of all numbers."]The number 37 creates the "perfect triangle" of all numbers in pool. The number 37 creates the "perfect triangle" of all numbers

These numbers are all reflected in pool, by diamonds, pockets, rails, balls, and sections. When these factors are all understood the perfection of the game is "downloaded" into the subconscious and the game starts to actually express it's self through the player.

'The Game is the Teacher'

My favorite number is 1ACFFC1D.

I get paid a bunch of $$ to find it.

Perfect triangles, etc only work for decimal systems (base 10).

37 x 3 = 111

Is just the unremarkable:

0x25 x 3 = 0x6F

in hex. Patterns of digits are not really anything but aesthetic.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's essential to see what part of the pocket the object ball contacts on each shot

Remember, the final target is the pocket, so you need to think in terms of the cue ball/pocket/deflection relationship, not the cue ball/object ball/deflection ratio.

Only in this way will you start to understand the pocket zone, and haven't a "feel for the pocket". I know it's challenging at first, however, it's very beneficial to think in terms of the cue ball being your primary target and the pocket, not the object ball delivering feedback------>to your sense of touch/feel (located in your subconscious mind).

I believe it's essential to see what part of the pocket the object ball contacts on each shot. This allows you to make "micro-adjustments" to your TIP/CUE BALL contact if you're not hitting the center (unless you're cheating the pocket). The purpose of doing these adjustments is to keep yourself from "drifting off" on your shotmaking. This may not make a difference in an hour, but over several hours you will "real eyes" the benefit.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The game of pool is an outstanding tool to teacher kids, and adults alike.

My favorite number is 1ACFFC1D.

I get paid a bunch of $$ to find it.

Perfect triangles, etc only work for decimal systems (base 10).

37 x 3 = 111

Is just the unremarkable:

0x25 x 3 = 0x6F

in hex. Patterns of digits are not really anything but aesthetic.

You can also say that playing perfect pool is unremarkable because of the repeating patterns as well....and in a way you'd be right, but it's still challenging to reach that level of play. There's really only a handful of players that can sustain that level for more than a couple of hours.

The game of pool is also an effective tool for teaching angles and physics. The diamond systems, aiming systems, kicking systems and carom systems demonstrates an outstanding tool to teacher kids, and adults alike.

Even more amazing is how perfectly our own subconscious can connect to the game and produce results that are "super-natural" (natural in a super way). I've seen and experienced levels of play that don't even seem possible in retrospect.

 

[duckie]

There is geometry in pool. There is physics in pool.

There are two ways to look at shoot making....static and dynamic.

Static is thinking what you needed to do with a shot, dynamic is putting those needs in action.

The game is only correct and complete as the the player.

 

[PINKLADY]

boy, after 9 months of not picking up a cue, (due to tendonitis) - i had a night, that would have blown this aiming/geometry thread into obtuse angles....

i shot completely on "feel". (with a lot of English where applicable) never even saw the line of vision w/ the pocket....

banked. kicked. straight in. called all. 14:1.

what a great night!

 

[MahnaMahna]

boy, after 9 months of not picking up a cue, (due to tendonitis) - i had a night, that would have blown this aiming/geometry thread into obtuse angles....



i shot completely on "feel". (with a lot of English where applicable) never even saw the line of vision w/ the pocket....



banked. kicked. straight in. called all. 14:1.



what a great night!

I also love the nights when I miss 14 shots to every one made, it's like magic!