Is this POOL'S Death Knell

[BlowFish]

Jay, next time you should ask... Do you know "The Carpenters"? Then sing any of their popular tunes like "We've Only Just Bigun", "Close to you", etc...

Back to topic, Pool is very big in The Philippines. That is why a major candidate for the Presidential Race in 2010 took it on as his vehicle.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, next time you should ask... Do you know "The Carpenters"? Then sing any of their popular tunes like "We've Only Just Bigun", "Close to you", etc...

Back to topic, Pool is very big in The Philippines. That is why a major candidate for the Presidential Race in 2010 took it on as his vehicle.

What makes you think I can sing? I'm still learning how to talk!

 

[Roy Steffensen]

I haven't been posting for a while, but this thread about the assassination of Edwin sparked my interest to post again.

Do we know for sure that the murder was because of Edwin's opinions? No, we do not know that. In fact, we know nothing at all about his death, except that he was killed brutally.

We don't even know if the murder is pool-related, do we? Yes, the package with a broken cue sure can mean something, but it can also be a tool to distract the police. I know "Sputnik" posted in another thread that Edwin didn't owe money, have enemies outside pool etc., but we will never know for sure.

I have never been a big fan of of the other "camp" in the Philippines, as many posters will know, but untill we know for sure who is responsible and why I think it is not fair to blame them without proof.

I have met Edwin a couple of times, and he has been real nice and friendly to me. I have agreed with nearly everything he has fought for and said when it comes to the BMPAP-BSCP/Raya situation, and I hope that his ideas and dreams will come true.

I am having absolute no problems going back to Philippines because of this tragedy, and I will continue going to the Philippines as often as possible. I have fallen in love with the country and it's people, and I see no reason why people should quit travelling to Philippines because of this.

R.I.P. Edwin

Roy - still in shock

 

[sjm]

Do we know for sure that the murder was because of Edwin's opinions? No, we do not know that. In fact, we know nothing at all about his death, except that he was killed brutally.

We don't even know if the murder is pool-related, do we? Yes, the package with a broken cue sure can mean something, but it can also be a tool to distract the police. I know "Sputnik" posted in another thread that Edwin didn't owe money, have enemies outside pool etc., but we will never know for sure.

The voice of reason has spoken.

Many on this forum claimed "rush to judgment" when the forum reacted to the arrest of Tony Chohan. On that occasion, though, documentary evidence existed in the form of nationally-distributed newspaper articles indicating exactly what drugs and what quantities, found on Tony, were seized by police when the arrest was made.

But now, many of those same people see no problem in assuming they know the motives and associations of a still unidentified killer. There is no documentary evidence to support any such assumptions, but these assumptions are being passed off as if they were documented facts.

The facts, as speculated, may possibly prove accurate but, as Roy has rightly advocated, we should reserve judgment pending completion of the pertinent investigations.

Thank you, Roy, for your exceptional post.

 

[JAM]

The voice of reason has spoken.

Many on this forum claimed "rush to judgment" when the forum reacted to the arrest of Tony Chohan. On that occasion, though, documentary evidence existed in the form of nationally-distributed newspaper articles indicating exactly what drugs and what quantities, found on Tony, were seized by police when the arrest was made.

But now, many of those same people see no problem in assuming they know the motives and associations of a still unidentified killer. There is no documentary evidence to support any such assumptions, but these assumptions are being passed off as if they were documented facts.

The facts, as speculated, may possibly prove accurate but, as Roy has rightly advocated, we should reserve judgment pending completion of the pertinent investigations.

Thank you, Roy, for your exceptional post.

I normally agree with your well-written posts, SJM. However, some of the statements you have made, without elaborating on them, are just untrue.

Everybody for sure is entitled to their own opinion about this matter pertaining to Edwin Reyes' murder, as they are with Tony Chohan. I don't think the two incidents are similar at all, but that is just my opinion.

 

[sjm]

I normally agree with your well-written posts, SJM. However, some of the statements you have made, without elaborating on them, are just untrue.

Everybody for sure is entitled to their own opinion about this matter pertaining to Edwin Reyes' murder, as they are with Tony Chohan. I don't think the two incidents are similar at all, but that is just my opinion.

Well, then, I'll have to elaborate.

These incidents, from the vantage point of the sport of pool, are very similar because they involve a felony that has resulted in the removal of a valued member of our pool community from its midst. In that respect, the impact of these two events is, from the point of view of somebody like myself and many others on this forum, who are engaged in our sport as fans, as players, and in the politics of pool, near identical. Another similarity between these incidents is that in each case, pool's image has been impacted, though that impact is still, in many ways, yet to be fully determined. The final similarity between the two incidents is in our forum's response, in which we have all, in our own way, lamented the removal of two key figures from pool's midst.

Here's why these two incidents are not similar. In the T-Rex incident, we have documentary and physical evidence and a nationally released police statement regarding the facts surrounding the matter. AZB posters have reacted to this evidence, while others have, with some justification, bemoaned their "rush to judgment." In the Edwin Reyes murder, we have no evidence establishing either the perpetrator, their associations, or their motives, but the tone of the posts on our forum belie that fact.

I could easily cite 100 examples of it, but prefer not to invest the time and have no desire to single out any poster(s), but the forum's rhetoric suggesting a "pool-politics motive" on the Edwin Reyes murder is, in most cases, not packaged as opinion, but as if it were established fact. Another 100 examples could be cited in which it packaged as fact that Edwin died for his beliefs and ideals. All posts that use either an "if this proves true" or "in my opinion" style of communication are, to me, fully acceptable, and, as you rightly point out, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I loved Edwin, and communicated with him by PM on several occasions. I am still in shock over this very disturbing incident, but I will not participate in the writing of what amounts to a growing and speculative work of fiction on AZB regarding his murder. As many posters have noted with a heartfelt sincerity, 1) Edwin's family and friends are what matter the most right now, and 2) we must strive to keep Edwin's visions for our sport alive. On these points, I agree in full. Edwin was a special man in our sport. We miss him deeply and will always remember his special brand of commitment to our sport and its future.

Needless to say, these are no more than my opinions on these matters, and I hope I have made clear the perspectives and deductions on which these opinions are based.

 

[JAM]

Well, then, I'll have to elaborate.

These incidents, from the vantage point of the sport of pool, are very similar because they involve a felony that has resulted in the removal of a valued member of our pool community from its midst. In that respect, the impact of these two events is, from the vantage point of somebody like myself and many others on this forum, who are engaged in our sport as fans, as players, and in the politics of pool, near identical. The other similarity between the two incidents is in our forum's response, in which we have all, in our own way, lamented the removal of a key figure from pool's midst.

Here's why these two incidents are not similar. In the T-Rex incident, we have documentary and physical evidence and a nationally released police statement regarding the facts surrounding the matter. AZB posters have reacted to this evidence, while others have, with some justification, bemoaned their "rush to judgment." In the Edwin Reyes murder, we have no evidence establishing either the perpetrator, their associations, or their motives, but the tone of the posts on our forum belie that fact.

I could easily cite 100 examples of it, but prefer not to invest the time and have no desire to single out any single poster(s), but the forum's rhetoric suggesting a "pool-politics motive" on the Edwin Reyes murder is, in most cases, not packaged as opinion, but as if it were established fact. Another hundred 100 examples could be cited in which it packaged as fact that Edwin died for his beliefs and ideals. All posts that use either an "if this proves true" or "in my opinion" style of communication are, to me, fully acceptable, and, as you rightly point out, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I loved Edwin, and communicated with him by PM on several occasions. I am still in shock over this very disturbing incident, but I will not participate in the writing of what amounts to a growing and speculative work of fiction on AZB regarding his murder. As many posters have noted with a heartfelt sincerity, 1) Edwin's family and friends are what matter the most right now, and 2) we must strive to keep Edwin's visions for our sport alive. On these points, I agree in full. Edwin was a special man in our sport. We miss him deeply and will always remember his special brand of commitment to our sport and its future.

Needless to say, these are no more than my opinions on these matters, and I hope I have made clear the perspectives and deductions on which these opinions are based.

Thanks for explaining your opinion. What I have highlighted in red above is where I disagree with your thoughts. You are entitled to feel as strongly as you do, one way or the other.

I'm not going to change my opinion, however, and I still believe the comparison of both is not a good analogy. I am sorry if I have offended you in any way, but I will state my opinion, just as you have.

 

[sjm]

Thanks for explaining your opinion. What I have highlighted in red above is where I disagree with your thoughts. You are entitled to feel as strongly as you do, one way or the other.

I'm not going to change my opinion, however, and I still believe the comparison of both is not a good analogy. I am sorry if I have offended you in any way, but I will state my opinion, just as you have.

You have not only NOT offended me, JAM, but you have posted with clarity and insight. As far as I'm concerned, we've had a polite exchange concerning this matter, and through our online dialogue, we have both, in all likelihoood, gained additional perspectives on these recent, and shocking, disappointments in the world of pool.

After all is said and done, what matters is the inescapable truth that pool has suffered two serious blows, and the whys and wherefores are of just secondary importance.

 

[CreeDo]

Pro9: I'm sorry for your loss, maybe I'd have toned it down knowing you were a friend of his and not just another guy looking to chime in. This may be just a cultural difference between the UK and the US.

For example if I were writing about the death of a friend and they had a child, I would not claim the child was literally "in his arms" when he was shot, unless I knew for a fact that was the literal truth, because doing so sensationalizes the murder. I'd rather have my friend remembered in a style that is closer to "The Economist" than "The Sun". On the other hand maybe you feel you are doing him a favor by making it sound as awful as possible, to stir up outrage and somehow get some kind of positive outcome. Just a difference in styles I guess.

I take exception to the claim I am somehow looking at this with rose colored glasses. All I said is that pool is a 500 year tradition. I didn't say it was a tradition of spotless integrity or scandal-free. The point of saying "500 years" is that it has survived a very long time despite any setbacks you care to name.

Let's not argue, fundamentally we agree... it's a setback for pool and a horrible thing.

 

[beetle]

Stu,

This was clearly "a hit". It wasn't a random killing. There was no robbery. It was premeditated. Given the evidence that he had received death threats via text messages for his opinions relating to competing pool organizations, this is obviously the leading candidate as a motive.

Are you saying we cannot discuss this, mentioning the most likely motive until a conviction is made? It is very likely that a conviction will never be made. Look how long it takes investigations in the US where we have much less corruption and far more investigatory infrastructure.

As long as no persons are specifically singled out publically, I think it is very fair to make our opinions known.

--Steve

Well, then, I'll have to elaborate.

These incidents, from the vantage point of the sport of pool, are very similar because they involve a felony that has resulted in the removal of a valued member of our pool community from its midst. In that respect, the impact of these two events is, from the point of view of somebody like myself and many others on this forum, who are engaged in our sport as fans, as players, and in the politics of pool, near identical. Another similarity between these incidents is that in each case, pool's image has been impacted, though that impact is still, in many ways, yet to be fully determined. The final similarity between the two incidents is in our forum's response, in which we have all, in our own way, lamented the removal of two key figures from pool's midst.

Here's why these two incidents are not similar. In the T-Rex incident, we have documentary and physical evidence and a nationally released police statement regarding the facts surrounding the matter. AZB posters have reacted to this evidence, while others have, with some justification, bemoaned their "rush to judgment." In the Edwin Reyes murder, we have no evidence establishing either the perpetrator, their associations, or their motives, but the tone of the posts on our forum belie that fact.

I could easily cite 100 examples of it, but prefer not to invest the time and have no desire to single out any poster(s), but the forum's rhetoric suggesting a "pool-politics motive" on the Edwin Reyes murder is, in most cases, not packaged as opinion, but as if it were established fact. Another 100 examples could be cited in which it packaged as fact that Edwin died for his beliefs and ideals. All posts that use either an "if this proves true" or "in my opinion" style of communication are, to me, fully acceptable, and, as you rightly point out, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I loved Edwin, and communicated with him by PM on several occasions. I am still in shock over this very disturbing incident, but I will not participate in the writing of what amounts to a growing and speculative work of fiction on AZB regarding his murder. As many posters have noted with a heartfelt sincerity, 1) Edwin's family and friends are what matter the most right now, and 2) we must strive to keep Edwin's visions for our sport alive. On these points, I agree in full. Edwin was a special man in our sport. We miss him deeply and will always remember his special brand of commitment to our sport and its future.

Needless to say, these are no more than my opinions on these matters, and I hope I have made clear the perspectives and deductions on which these opinions are based.

 

[alstl]

Pool will survive but it will never be mainstream until this stuff is cleaned up.

 

[sputnik]

I know "Sputnik" posted in another thread that Edwin didn't owe money, have enemies outside pool etc., but we will never know for sure.

Hello Roy. The more I wake up in the mornings after Edwin's death, the more I can see the complexity in solving his case. If I am angry with anyone in the "other camp", I can kill Edwin and they will be blamed. If I am angry with Edwin, I can kill Edwin and still they will be blamed. In fact, any nut who has the thirst for killing will see this situation as an opportunity to quench his thirst (but that is far-fetched because it was an obvious paid killing) and still they will be blamed.

Whatever it is, I can see Edwin admiting to the mistake of taking on everybody out in the open. I have had many times when I have check-mated Edwin into seeing a different perspective, and he was always sport about it. But I could not temper him in his final conflict.

There are only two things that I worry about. One is Edwin. He has to rest in peace. The other one is the family that he left. Edwin was my friend.

Waking up in the mornings also has been taking my heart farther from pool since Edwin's death because pool can hardly be a friend and too many characters in this world can break a heart of one who is immersed in it without financial considerations.

Edwin fought for fairness. With it automatically came fighting for the right direction in Philippine pool. I am sorry Edwin, but we made a mistake. I am doubting having told some guys that condemning the Philippines will not be parallel with what Edwin fought for.

This silence on Edwin's death may be understandable. Perhaps people are terrified. Perhaps people are quietly working up plans. Perhaps silence will be good for the industry. But I do believe that his affiliations should have come up with statements of how much Edwin was a loss to them and to the game of pool; what Edwin was in cue-artistry; and what he stood for until the end -- a simple, considerate, grateful and safe statement. But of course Edwin was the Spokesperson so nobody was there to speak out. Maybe everyone is still in shock but five days is too long to condemn this senseless killing and I have spent as many days trying to understand this silence. My friend deserves more than this public neglect. Tournaments in his memorial will help his children later, but it is now at this moment when Edwin needs a respectful eulogy of sorts from his camp. It should have come at a condoling time (wake/funeral) so Edwin's family could at least understand what Edwin really was in pool as they sent him off. But it is not yet too late.

The show must go on, as I pick up from some posts in this thread. Let the F*^&ING show go on for all I care. Yes, it will be hard to approach sponsors with blood all over the pool table but it is reality and it can push reforms if they want reforms. Icons like Efren and company will always be there to elevate pool's image but keeping quiet gives off a wrong underworld impression.

After I had already detached myself from the pool scene, Edwin called me at the end of 2007 saying that he needed me for a good cause in pool. We had a pact in 2003 but he will not be around anymore to re-enlist me again. It is not because I am terrified that the one who slaughtered my friend can easily get to any one of us too. It is because I am disgusted. It was not his death that was my wake-up call. In many ways, Edwin had it coming because of how extremely fearless he was, and he knew it. This was why Linds left premium chalks in his coffin so Edwin would remember to chalk before shooting, as Linds realized himself in their direct and blatant posts at a local pool forum.

My wake-up call came after the the apparent insignificance of Edwin's death.

I am done with partisan pool in the real and virtual worlds and I shall post only for Edwin, for fairness and for fun. I, too, had served my purpose. Edwin's plight was interrupted by two bullets and it is now in the hands of the leaders of pool to conclude meaning to his death by doing a good job with fairness as their basis.

 

[JAM]

Sputnik, that was very well written. I feel your pain, and I am outraged at this murder of this father, friend, brother, husband, cuemaker, and gentleman named Edwin Reyes. :frown:

 

[JoeyA]

Well, then, I'll have to elaborate.

These incidents, from the vantage point of the sport of pool, are very similar because they involve a felony that has resulted in the removal of a valued member of our pool community from its midst. In that respect, the impact of these two events is, from the point of view of somebody like myself and many others on this forum, who are engaged in our sport as fans, as players, and in the politics of pool, near identical. Another similarity between these incidents is that in each case, pool's image has been impacted, though that impact is still, in many ways, yet to be fully determined. The final similarity between the two incidents is in our forum's response, in which we have all, in our own way, lamented the removal of two key figures from pool's midst.

Here's why these two incidents are not similar. In the T-Rex incident, we have documentary and physical evidence and a nationally released police statement regarding the facts surrounding the matter. AZB posters have reacted to this evidence, while others have, with some justification, bemoaned their "rush to judgment." In the Edwin Reyes murder, we have no evidence establishing either the perpetrator, their associations, or their motives, but the tone of the posts on our forum belie that fact.

I could easily cite 100 examples of it, but prefer not to invest the time and have no desire to single out any poster(s), but the forum's rhetoric suggesting a "pool-politics motive" on the Edwin Reyes murder is, in most cases, not packaged as opinion, but as if it were established fact. Another 100 examples could be cited in which it packaged as fact that Edwin died for his beliefs and ideals. All posts that use either an "if this proves true" or "in my opinion" style of communication are, to me, fully acceptable, and, as you rightly point out, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I loved Edwin, and communicated with him by PM on several occasions. I am still in shock over this very disturbing incident, but I will not participate in the writing of what amounts to a growing and speculative work of fiction on AZB regarding his murder. As many posters have noted with a heartfelt sincerity, 1) Edwin's family and friends are what matter the most right now, and 2) we must strive to keep Edwin's visions for our sport alive. On these points, I agree in full. Edwin was a special man in our sport. We miss him deeply and will always remember his special brand of commitment to our sport and its future.

Needless to say, these are no more than my opinions on these matters, and I hope I have made clear the perspectives and deductions on which these opinions are based.

This clarity of your thinking is why I will always be interested in sitting with you at pool tournaments the world over.

(It has nothing to do with the many bets we make on the matches in which you somehow find a way to lose practically every one of them.)

JoeyA

 

[mirdavanfe]

My wake-up call came after the the apparent insignificance of Edwin's death.

I am done with partisan pool in the real and virtual worlds and I shall post only for Edwin, for fairness and for fun. I, too, had served my purpose. Edwin's plight was interrupted by two bullets and it is now in the hands of the leaders of pool to conclude meaning to his death by doing a good job with fairness as their basis.

if i recall correctly, you didn't list Bata as attending Edwin's funeral, some big names were there but neither him or Putch, despite both being leaders in the BMPAP along with Master Edwin, was Efren away on another continent?

 

[sjm]

Are you saying we cannot discuss this, mentioning the most likely motive until a conviction is made?

No, not at all. It is fully acceptable to opine that this is the most likely explanation for the murder, and that the motives, at least to some extent, can be deduced from Edwin's experiences, but such hypothesis must be packaged as hypothesis, and not as fact.

One of my concerns here is that we need to leave a path to political reconciliation between the Asian pool factions if the explanation lies elsewhere. Attributing this hit to one of those factions, before the facts are fully ascertainable, is risky fare. Even if, for the sake or argument, you view it as 80% likely that a rival Asian pool faction is responsible, it needs to be understood that if the pool world jumps to this conclusion and it proves false, it will have unnecessarily heightened the tension among the Asian pool organizations.

Anyway, thanks for your post and for your insights.

 

[beetle]

Your points are well taken. It's a longshot, but let's hope they find all guilty parties and bring them to justice.

No, not at all. It is fully acceptable to opine that this is the most likely explanation for the murder, and that the motives, at least to some extent, can be deduced from Edwin's experiences, but such hypothesis must be packaged as hypothesis, and not as fact.

One of my concerns here is that we need to leave a path to political reconciliation between the Asian pool factions if the explanation lies elsewhere. Attributing this hit to one of those factions, before the facts are fully ascertainable, is risky fare. Even if, for the sake or argument, you view it as 80% likely that a rival Asian pool faction is responsible, it needs to be understood that if the pool world jumps to this conclusion and it proves false, it will have unnecessarily heightened the tension among the Asian pool organizations.

Anyway, thanks for your post and for your insights.

 

[kath13]

understanding

As a I haven't quite reached my first year on this forum, Edwin was somewhat unknown to me though I had read some of his posts.

Could someone either point out to me a previous thread that explained his position in the PI Billiard Community as well as outlined the position of the current governing body? If this doesn't exist, could someone take the time to put this into words to inform the uninformed?

I was shocked to read of his sudden and tragic passing. Many have extolled his character and his passion for billiards and the players that play the game and I would like to understand what Edwin did for billiards in the PI. Thanks in advance and my condolences to his family and friends...

 

[jay helfert]

As a I haven't quite reached my first year on this forum, Edwin was somewhat unknown to me though I had read some of his posts.

Could someone either point out to me a previous thread that explained his position in the PI Billiard Community as well as outlined the position of the current governing body? If this doesn't exist, could someone take the time to put this into words to inform the uninformed?

I was shocked to read of his sudden and tragic passing. Many have extolled his character and his passion for billiards and the players that play the game and I would like to understand what Edwin did for billiards in the PI. Thanks in advance and my condolences to his family and friends...

It's been less than a year that accusations were flying back and forth between the BCSP and the BMPAP, the two significant pool associations in the PI. Shouldn't be hard to find those threads and see what Edwin (Bandido) had to say.