Issues Blowing Up At The Tornado Open

Perfect Venue for Promotion

Ive scan read some of the comments here. I only have one thing to interject.

We have a Pool Room now on the East Coast large enough and set up right enough to do major events at Chandleys Chalk and Cue in Statesville, NC.

The tables are 9ft diamonds, the best playing surface available.

Food and Full Bar.

All this place needs is a promoter to show up and start doing things that will attract attention. We now have enough tables to accommodate over the weekend tournaments along with our regular customers.

You can find them by googling them and on facebook. Theres a drone video of the room that is awesome.

Just food for thought guys. Bring it!
 
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JAM said:
I respect your words as I believe you do feel that way. I may not agree, but I respect your right to have that opinion. You don't post under false identities and/or multiple identities.

My opinion is that you cannot paint all pro players with the same brush. It is stereotyping. There are some really good people out there who play professional pool, people who do care, people who help others, people who try to promote pool and put it in a better light. Scott Frost comes to mind.

You may not like pro players, but I do believe they deserve a modicum of respect, those who have achieved high levels of pool playing. That doesn't mean you have to kiss their feet and bow down to them, Lou. Just a modicum of respect for their skills. After all, this is a pool forum.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The existing lot of professional players is dwindling. Soon there will be no professional pool. The leagues today are where it's at as far as mainstream America. There may be a day that the game of pool falls into the category of croquet, a game remembered from long ago.

But while pool is still played professionally, I choose a different stance on how I view pro players.

Again, I like that you post under your own name and don't create multiple identities. And I'll just leave it at that. This ain't my first rodeo on pool forums, as you know, and I'm not just talking about AzBilliards. ;)
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JAM, you do something in this post that you frequently do, and I have always had a problem with: you make the assumption that I don't like pro pool players, and imply I don't have respect for them, because I'm critical of some and honestly comment on what I see.

Talk about painting with too broad a brush.

There are few saints amongst the cadre of professional pool players. And almost everywhere you look -- from the US Open, MC, DCC, SBE, and money matches around the country -- you can find examples of dumps, monkeying with the equipment, sharking, stealing money off the lights, and more. It is what it is, and putting lipstick on that pig does not change things.

I have respect for pro pool players and admire their skill. But it is, at best, a mixed bag.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa said:
JAM, you do something in this post that you frequently do, and I have always had a problem with: you make the assumption that I don't like pro pool players, and imply I don't have respect for them, because I'm critical of some and honestly comment on what I see.

Talk about painting with too broad a brush.

There are few saints amongst the cadre of professional pool players. And almost everywhere you look -- from the US Open, MC, DCC, SBE, and money matches around the country -- you can find examples of dumps, monkeying with the equipment, sharking, stealing money off the lights, and more. It is what it is, and putting lipstick on that pig does not change things.

I have respect for pro pool players and admire their skill. But it is, at best, a mixed bag.

Lou Figueroa
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I guess I have only read the posts you make criticizing pro players. In fact, I don't think I've ever read one nice thing about pro players written by you -- until just now. :)
 
justnum said:
Great comparison, it highlights the importance of player fees in relation to tournament payouts.

Let's make a new rating for players. A rating for players to decide if a tournament event is worth playing in.

call it the prize to entry coefficient (PEC), there is a secret formula, its complicated.

assume first prize is $10,000 with an entry of $500, then the PEC is 40

If first prize is $500 with an entry of $100, then the PEC is 5.

If first prize is $200 with an entry of $100, then the PEC is 2.

(PEC is first prize divided by entry fee)

Players have to decide which events to attend. A good way to compare tournament prize payouts is the PEC score.

It should help pros and amateurs decide what events have the best payoff given the entry fee. Pros play with events of PEC score more than 10, less than 10 means the event is recreational or suited to players that don't have hotel and travel expenses.
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I like your entry coefficient PEC. The 10,000 first place with a 500 entry would be a PEC of 20 in your example. I think depending on the player there might be other factors involved with playing in the event. Myself, winning the event would be difficult if not impossible. I try to look at the overall event and the value to me, OEVM coefficient :)

I probably don't have a chance to win but I might cash. Questions that I like an answer is how far down does the tournament pay? Is it paid top heavy or more evenly spread out? What is the quality of the field? (I enjoy watching good play almost as much as playing) Equipment? Expenses?

If promoters can answer these questions then the tournament might bring out more amateur players or "fillers" or "deadmoney" to play in the events that help support the pro players. I'll try to play in a couple a year that I'm in reality donating but if everything aligns I might sneak into the money.
 
BeiberLvr said:
I understand they don't make money when the seats are empty, but does it actually cost them money? Seems like it would just be a wash.

Even if it is a loss, I would think some of it would be offset by some players staying at the hotel, and most players gambling in the casino.

We'll know for sure if they hold the event next year.
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Bottom line....
 
John Disque said:
Josh Roberts also chimed and said it was the worst tournament he's ever been to.

Also Mike Davis, who confirmed everything the players were saying, stated that they're being treated rudely. He also said SVB was trying to get the players together and walk out based on the added money not being what was advertised.

Two top players forfeited.

I'll have the details of everything as soon as I get it all put together.
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and then after SVB won, he posted on facebook that everyone should support Vivian and not ***** and complain on social media.

call me confused
 
Mark Griffin said:
I have been half following the situation in Florida. Its a real shame.

I think Vivian was trying to do the right thing. But I will agree that the event 'seemed' to be a little rough around the edges last year.

No way to follow the matches and difficult to see scores and payouts etc.

This is the 2016. There are a lot of ways to handle the information and to have a good staff. But for 'the love of the game' - use qualified people/companies to run the show.


Players need to be respected - they also need to be respectful. But what is happening is that too few players will compete on 9' tables. The truth is that the 9' game is becoming less and less feasible.


Mark Griffin
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Mark - since you brought it up, there were MANY issues with Bad Boys this past year at your BCAPL event. I sent you screen shots of just one example in a message and you never replied so I'll bring it up again here. I would be happy to apply to run the show next year. Let me know where to send my resume.

On the issue of 9 footers -- the US 9 Ball Open is sold out. Memphis events continue to get sold out. I think it is more an 'issue' of the promoter than the players. If the event is promoted correctly and ran correctly (which was finally the case last year with the US 9 Ball Open, and is always the case with Tracey at High Pockets), then the players will come out. Has nothing to do with table size. Hell, I see events in Canada that fill up and they are much more top heavy than any US event when it comes to player skill level. There are only like 3 or 4 players that could win the event but they still fill up.
 
watchez said:
and then after SVB won, he posted on facebook that everyone should support Vivian and not ***** and complain on social media.

call me confused
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Shane ended up responding further:


FacebookSVB.jpg
 
Looks like some had issue with the XX money added based on X # entries not being posted consistently.

I started playing pool regularly 5 yrs ago joining the beginner league. Last year I started entering low level amateur tournaments.

XX Money added based on X # entries is reasonable and understandable. I learned about the policy after my 1st tournament.

Players entering this tournament never experienced this policy before ? Really ?
 
For the most part added money is the only way to attract players to attend an event. Those ducks have to be in order to get the fields required to make an event successful. But, the breakdown must be clearly stated in advance. When attendance is poor you just have to bite the bullet and live with the results. Non playing spectators are a thing of the past. They just don't show up much anymore. And, they used to make events successful. Maybe it's the economy, maybe it's the lack of interest in pool or maybe it's how the event is scheduled. Case in point. The old Reno Open had several events running at the same time. They had the "Pro Event" but they also had a smaller event where "Non Pros" could enter which attracted many players who would then come play and watch. That type of event brought out players who could see themselves making a commitment to take time off and attend because THEY COULD ALSO PLAY. Maybe we need to look backwords once in a while to move forward........
 
Vivian?

Hungarian said:
Wow. Poor Vivian, trying to do good and this happening...
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Of all the pros I ever met or played with, Vivian was the worst. She was so arrogant and full of herself it was sickening. She had that trashy demeanor that makes me ashamed to be any part of this. I avoid her at every opportunity. Pretty easy now that I don't do any work for the WPBA.
That being said, I am not at all surprised that there is controversy after her event.
 
So what was the final math? How much money was added across all of the divisions for an added money total? Anybody know? Are we talking trivial amounts?
 
The saddest thing is the fact that I would have been shocked if there wasn't a thread created like this. Pretty much the status quo.
 
JAM said:
I guess I have only read the posts you make criticizing pro players. In fact, I don't think I've ever read one nice thing about pro players written by you -- until just now. :)
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Then you have been pretty selective in your reading. Over the years I've written about the great play and behavior of many pro players. I must also note that you seem to make the same criticism of others that say anything negative about your beloved pro players.

Lou Figueroa
 
Mark Griffin said:
I appreciate the comparisons, however you are missing a few very important ingredients. Because of casino scheduling issues, CSI was not able to announce the dates until very late and the dates we were forced into were very close to our nationals - so there was a lot of confusion. In addition, we conflicted with Turning Stone (that was our fault, but the casino kept changing dates and over the few months of negotiating, Turning Stone announced their dates and we missed it).

We apologize for that and it will be avoided in the future. We either had to accept the 'bad' dates or to cancel the event. - We were not willing to cancel - and we paid for it.

Also, our added money was FAR below the Florida event.

So the Tornado Open had months to advertise, had massive added money, had basically no conflicting events. but was on 9' tables. We had to move from Reno (where it had been for over 20 years). We were smaller but we also feel it will grow.
The dates for 2017 are Dec 7-16, in Las Vegas. We will have plenty of time to promote and have no conflicting events. Then we will compare numbers.

Keep in mind CSI had several 96 and 128 man fields in conjunction with our nationals on 9' tables with less added money. My opinion is that it is harder and harder toi fill most 9' events. But that is my opinion.

I realize you like shooting 'zingers' at me - I hope you pool game gets as much attention. All I want to do is get more people playing pool. I don't determine what they play on, I only react to what they play on.

Mark Griffin
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Mark, come on. The DCC is two floors of 9' table goodness with a 10' or two thrown in for good measure, and the players love it.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Mark, come on. The DCC is two floors of 9' table goodness with a 10' or two thrown in for good measure, and the players love it.

Lou Figueroa
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406 in the 9ball this year.

Not to mention all of the other 9' events this year that filled with 128 players.

If you're having trouble getting players for tournaments on 9' tables. It's not the tables.
 
Mark Griffin said:
I appreciate the comparisons, however you are missing a few very important ingredients. Because of casino scheduling issues, CSI was not able to announce the dates until very late and the dates we were forced into were very close to our nationals - so there was a lot of confusion. In addition, we conflicted with Turning Stone (that was our fault, but the casino kept changing dates and over the few months of negotiating, Turning Stone announced their dates and we missed it).

We apologize for that and it will be avoided in the future. We either had to accept the 'bad' dates or to cancel the event. - We were not willing to cancel - and we paid for it.

Also, our added money was FAR below the Florida event.

So the Tornado Open had months to advertise, had massive added money, had basically no conflicting events. but was on 9' tables. We had to move from Reno (where it had been for over 20 years). We were smaller but we also feel it will grow.
The dates for 2017 are Dec 7-16, in Las Vegas. We will have plenty of time to promote and have no conflicting events. Then we will compare numbers.

Keep in mind CSI had several 96 and 128 man fields in conjunction with our nationals on 9' tables with less added money. My opinion is that it is harder and harder toi fill most 9' events. But that is my opinion.

I realize you like shooting 'zingers' at me - I hope you pool game gets as much attention. All I want to do is get more people playing pool. I don't determine what they play on, I only react to what they play on.

Mark Griffin
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Keep up the good work on barbox events. I'm only one person, but they are the only streams I'll pay to watch.
 
mikepage said:
Here is some interesting information. Attached please see the top 7 females and the top 7 males--by Fargo Ratings-- entered in the Tornado events.

All 14 of these players finished in the top 12 or their respective events!
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I wonder what Josh Roberts Fargo rating was before carom and tornado and what it is after
 
Mark Griffin said:
I appreciate the comparisons, however you are missing a few very important ingredients. Because of casino scheduling issues, CSI was not able to announce the dates until very late and the dates we were forced into were very close to our nationals - so there was a lot of confusion. In addition, we conflicted with Turning Stone (that was our fault, but the casino kept changing dates and over the few months of negotiating, Turning Stone announced their dates and we missed it).

We apologize for that and it will be avoided in the future. We either had to accept the 'bad' dates or to cancel the event. - We were not willing to cancel - and we paid for it.

Also, our added money was FAR below the Florida event.

So the Tornado Open had months to advertise, had massive added money, had basically no conflicting events. but was on 9' tables. We had to move from Reno (where it had been for over 20 years). We were smaller but we also feel it will grow.
The dates for 2017 are Dec 7-16, in Las Vegas. We will have plenty of time to promote and have no conflicting events. Then we will compare numbers.

Keep in mind CSI had several 96 and 128 man fields in conjunction with our nationals on 9' tables with less added money. My opinion is that it is harder and harder toi fill most 9' events. But that is my opinion.

I realize you like shooting 'zingers' at me - I hope you pool game gets as much attention. All I want to do is get more people playing pool. I don't determine what they play on, I only react to what they play on.

Mark Griffin
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I hate it being called a US event on Bar tables, we already have a USBTC - so please leave the US out and call it what it is, the CSI Open. It is a shame the biggest event in the US for pool is a second to the tornado open. With the issues they had, I would still pay over and voer to watch the stream before i pay to watch a US Open pro event on 7 ft
 
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