It's The CB

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If you won't learn to control the cue ball your game will never improve. There's a simple solution if your having problems potting balls... it's called practice. Practice the shots you'r having difficulties with over and over till you get them right. You don't need any aiming systems to achieve that. If that doesn't help then maybe there's something wrong with your fundamentals (stance, stroke, eyesight ...). Controling the cue ball requieres not only practice but also knowledge: how will the cue ball react when for instance you apply english, follow, draw... The better you can control your cue ball the easier your next shot will be. Seems verry logic to me. Stating that getting position or shape on the next shot is not that important seems quite insane to me. Some people think that the secret lies in aiming systems I think the key is practice. If you want to improve you will have to work for it.
 
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ShootingArts said:
I'll try to explain a little better about pinpoint position play. Most people literally don't understand what position play can be. They discover draw and side and wow this is really cool! They can make the cue ball take off in the general direction they want it to and stop in a fairly large area, sometimes. This doesn't take a great deal of skill and indeed if they try to substitute this for ball pocketing skills their game is going nowhere fast.

Obviously it varies from shot to shot but I think it would be fair to say that pinpoint shape is probably ten times more difficult overall than area shape. I was gambling quite profitably on the local level when I realized that pinpoint shape was within the bounds of possibility. I watched a match on TV, Mosconi against somebody tall and thin compared to him, maybe Crane or Lassiter I really only have a very vague memory of the other player. This was footage from before the Mosconi/Fats and Legends matches, probably from when Wide World of Sports showed pool about once a year. Anyway it opened my eyes, Willie was playing pinpoint position any time he needed to, maybe all the time. The thing is he was doing things with the cue ball I simply had not realized were possible before then. Nothing showy like some of Efren's great shots but on most shots he couldn't have had ball in hand after every shot and positioned the cue ball any better.

This was during the years I was putting in insane hours on the pool table and the next few years were focused very heavily on improving cue ball control, trying for pinpoint shape almost every shot. While it didn't turn me into Willie Mosconi my cue ball control soared simply because I was constantly trying to do things I had not been attempting before. Making the object ball became almost incidental but also very very easy on almost all shots. While I often used moderate draw and follow I rarely used more than a little bit of side because I usually could let angles do most of the work now.

Try for pinpoint shape on every shot for a few sessions and while you may not agree I think you will understand my position much better. I also believe that you will find this easier than three cushion in some ways but also harder in some. If you get caught by the bug you will find yourself playing tighter simpler patterns and also start nudging and bumping balls around more, making things easier for yourself or much tougher for your opponents.

I do strongly believe that almost anyone that seriously pursues precision position play for six months or longer will see huge jumps in their game, it just opens up so many more possibilities and the level of effort it requires sharpens your entire game.

My usual long painfully detailed post but I hope you understand a little better about what I mean when I stress owning the cue ball.

Hu
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Side. You speak English. Why?
 
seems clearer

TheThaiger said:
Side. You speak English. Why?
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Top, bottom, and english. Top, bottom, and side, or high, low, and side, just seems clearer to me. Nothing to do with my origins or location, I was born on a bayou in Louisiana.

Hu
 
Johnnyt said:
I believe a lot on here would do better practicing position and how to control the CB than spending endless hours talking about aiming systems that are only going to get you in the ballpark. Better position=closer shots=make more balls=make more balls and you will get the feel of all the angles. Johnnyt
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Before I started using CTE I was getting good position but missed pocketing too many balls.

Using CTE I'm getting close to doing my first run out.
 
JB Cases said:
Unlike you the things I post are true and verifiable. Use your google to find snooker people talking about aiming.
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Of course I could just go down to my local snooker hall instead - which I will in about an hour - and listen to all the conversations there, which, and I absolutely guarantee, will not be about aiming systems. Or I could watch the Masters final again, which, coincidentally, featured Steve Davis not talking about aiming systems, but giving his full, undivided attention to cueing from the rail, which, in his expert opinion, he recommended just getting down and whacking it, albeit keeping yer head a bit still and that. That's the six times World Champion Steve Davis, by the way.

It's very hard to escape the conclusion this is a place for talkers, not players, John.
 
anecdote

Johnnyt said:
I believe a lot on here would do better practicing position and how to control the CB than spending endless hours talking about aiming systems that are only going to get you in the ballpark. Better position=closer shots=make more balls=make more balls and you will get the feel of all the angles. Johnnyt

PS:I should have said practice position after you can run a few balls. I didin't mean to start on the first week of your pool playing days.
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I remember hearing about a woman telling her husband that she was bored after watching Mosconi sink more than 100 balls, because he had not made any difficult shots yet.
 
CB control evolves when the shooter no longer sweats making the shots. As the shooter evolves to a point where "pocketing balls becomes a given," he/she feels more comfortable to do whatever it takes to get that short-positioning.

CB control is the outcome of superior ball pocketing. It'll never develop until you can pocket the OB with spin and speed (or any combination or lack thereof) with conviction.

You don't develop superior positioning and then good ball pocketing follows because the shots are easy.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
CB control evolves when the shooter no longer sweats making the shots. As the shooter evolves to a point where "pocketing balls becomes a given," he/she feels more comfortable to do whatever it takes to get that short-positioning.

CB control is the outcome of superior ball pocketing. It'll never develop until you can pocket the OB with spin and speed (or any combination or lack thereof) with conviction.

You don't develop superior positioning and then good ball pocketing follows because the shots are easy.
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It only took you 5 sentences to say what I was trying to say in several paragraphs...very good!
 
TheThaiger said:
Of course I could just go down to my local snooker hall instead - which I will in about an hour - and listen to all the conversations there, which, and I absolutely guarantee, will not be about aiming systems. Or I could watch the Masters final again, which, coincidentally, featured Steve Davis not talking about aiming systems, but giving his full, undivided attention to cueing from the rail, which, in his expert opinion, he recommended just getting down and whacking it, albeit keeping yer head a bit still and that. That's the six times World Champion Steve Davis, by the way.

It's very hard to escape the conclusion this is a place for talkers, not players, John.
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Well stop talking then. Steve Davis made a video where he advocates using ball overlap to aim.

Go play. You're here talking with the rest of us. Do you add ANYTHING to the conversation?

Why bother with us? Are you on a crusade to save people from the evils of aiming systems? Snooker forums too boring for you?

Of course if you want to bet something then I can make a list of AZB members who talk a lot that would love to show you what they can do on the pool table.

Of course this site is for talkers. It's a discussion forum...... bet something and you can find out which of can do as well as talk
 
JB Cases said:
Wrong.

Once you have the line you are down on the shot and ONLY focusing on what you need to do to get to the next shot.
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I have just 4 words for you..."Pleasures Of Small Motions" by Bob Fancher!
Instead of using these forums for personal attacks like in your previous post, use these forums to learn and enjoy the comradery of people who share the same interests! j/s
 
cfrandy said:
I have just 4 words for you..."Pleasures Of Small Motions" by Bob Fancher!
Instead of using these forums for personal attacks like in your previous post, use these forums to learn and enjoy the comradery of people who share the same interests! j/s
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I have two more words for you, personal experience. My previous post was not a personal attack Randy. I have no idea how you play. You are however wrong if you think that a person who thinks about aiming on each shot can't focus on cue ball control.

Aiming is only the first part of the shot. Whether you think about it or not once you are down on the shot the aiming is done and now it's the shooting.

Don't think that every time I disagree with you that it's a personal attack. I can't help it if you continually present things on this forum that are wrong.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
CB control evolves when the shooter no longer sweats making the shots. As the shooter evolves to a point where "pocketing balls becomes a given," he/she feels more comfortable to do whatever it takes to get that short-positioning.

CB control is the outcome of superior ball pocketing. It'll never develop until you can pocket the OB with spin and speed (or any combination or lack thereof) with conviction.

You don't develop superior positioning and then good ball pocketing follows because the shots are easy.
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This is exactly it, and for me it is verifiable. For 15 years I shot balls by feel. Every shot I'd decide what I was going to do with the OB and CB, and upon execution my focus was entirely on making the shot. I had to do this... if my mind wandered to where the CB was going, I'd risk missing the shot.

After spending several months working out an aiming system that uses (objective) edges and centers of balls, shot making has become far easier and less stressful. Along with this comes CB control, as I can now safely put focus on that part of the shot.

Mind you the game is not always about making easy shots, you have to learn to make tough ones too. If you can't make a difficult shot, you won't have much luck after your opponent leaves you tough. In the game of straight pool this is probably less of a concern, but with something like 9 ball you have to be able to make tougher shots because pinpoint CB control is simply not happening on every shot. Watch any pro teaching the game, you will see them repeatedly admit not getting exactly what they wanted and having to change plans.
 
ShootingArts said:
I'll try to explain a little better about pinpoint position play. Most people literally don't understand what position play can be. They discover draw and side and wow this is really cool! They can make the cue ball take off in the general direction they want it to and stop in a fairly large area, sometimes. This doesn't take a great deal of skill and indeed if they try to substitute this for ball pocketing skills their game is going nowhere fast.

Obviously it varies from shot to shot but I think it would be fair to say that pinpoint shape is probably ten times more difficult overall than area shape. I was gambling quite profitably on the local level when I realized that pinpoint shape was within the bounds of possibility. I watched a match on TV, Mosconi against somebody tall and thin compared to him, maybe Crane or Lassiter I really only have a very vague memory of the other player. This was footage from before the Mosconi/Fats and Legends matches, probably from when Wide World of Sports showed pool about once a year. Anyway it opened my eyes, Willie was playing pinpoint position any time he needed to, maybe all the time. The thing is he was doing things with the cue ball I simply had not realized were possible before then. Nothing showy like some of Efren's great shots but on most shots he couldn't have had ball in hand after every shot and positioned the cue ball any better.

This was during the years I was putting in insane hours on the pool table and the next few years were focused very heavily on improving cue ball control, trying for pinpoint shape almost every shot. While it didn't turn me into Willie Mosconi my cue ball control soared simply because I was constantly trying to do things I had not been attempting before. Making the object ball became almost incidental but also very very easy on almost all shots. While I often used moderate draw and follow I rarely used more than a little bit of side because I usually could let angles do most of the work now.

Try for pinpoint shape on every shot for a few sessions and while you may not agree I think you will understand my position much better. I also believe that you will find this easier than three cushion in some ways but also harder in some. If you get caught by the bug you will find yourself playing tighter simpler patterns and also start nudging and bumping balls around more, making things easier for yourself or much tougher for your opponents.

I do strongly believe that almost anyone that seriously pursues precision position play for six months or longer will see huge jumps in their game, it just opens up so many more possibilities and the level of effort it requires sharpens your entire game.

My usual long painfully detailed post but I hope you understand a little better about what I mean when I stress owning the cue ball.

Hu
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This is good stuff. I do see where you are coming from and I get what you're saying.

I do think the games of 14.1, 1 pocket, and even to a certain extent bar table 8 ball requires this sort of precise cue ball control. I don't think that 9 and 10 ball require this sort of precision. Of course if two players have similar potting abilities, then the only thing that would separate them would be their cue ball control. So at the very top of the food chain that's really all they have to distinguish themselves apart from each other. But for the rest of us mere mortals I'm not so sure.

I do think all players would benefit from the sort of practice you are talking about. Anytime you have really focused, intense practice, it can do nothing but help you. I've done this sort of practice, although admittedly not to the level that you are talking about, and I've seen some positive results. But I haven't seen anything improve my game the way working on my pocketing ability has. Actually it's not even close.

One other thing that is often overlooked in this discussion is the origin of a player's confidence. This is where it may come down to all of us being built a little differently. What makes you a confident player? Is it knowing you can get the cue ball where it needs to go? Or is it knowing you can pocket the ball? Or is it a combination of the two? For me, my confidence has always relied on whether or not I could put the ball in the hole. If I missed shape several times in a row in a tough match it didn't really faze me. I would just tell myself that as soon as I get the table figured out I would be fine. However, when I start missing some makeable balls -- LOOK OUT! That's when I'm in trouble. It's almost like a primal thing for me -- see the hole -- put the ball in the hole.

My whole point of view on this subject is simply based on the idea that too many players stop working on improving their pocketing skills too soon in their development. Then they start focusing on cue ball control. That's what I did. I just accepted the fact that some tough shots were always going to be tough shots for me. So I have to play better position to avoid them. Well, I now reject that thinking. And I have obviously taken it a step further now that I've been down the road of working on pocketing the balls for over a year now.

The epiphany that you had when you watched Mosconi play was sort of like the epiphany I had when I watched SVB play, or actually even further back than that - watching Karen Corr play. I was thinking how in the world can she pocket balls so much better than me??? It was a bit chauvinistic on my part I'll admit, but that's when I realized I was doing things wrong.

And that's all I have to say about that. Talk about a long post.:thumbup:
 
mohrt said:
Watch any pro teaching the game, you will see them repeatedly admit not getting exactly what they wanted and having to change plans.
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I got a lesson from Sigel last year and that was his core point. He strives to be perfect, but is careful to not get "brain-locked" and to always have a back-up plan / safety valve. While playing 14.1, he reassesses after every single shot (regardless of what the preconceived pattern was).
 
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