Ivory Cue Joints

Ken_4fun said:
This has been on AZ hundreds of times.

But to me importance of hit works from the tip back.

Tip
Ferrelle
Shaft taper / Shaft
Joint type / Pin

As far as a full splice verses a short splice, IMO, makes little to no difference.

So while the OP wanted to discuss the importance of a ivory joint, I think, the ivory, micarta, LBM or whatever, ferrelle is MUCH more important.

Ken
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Great post, Ken. I agree.

My current custom (Dave Jones) player is currently configured with a..

G2 Medium tip,
old Micarta ferrule,
a Timeless Timber shaft (tapered to 12.4 mm),
a flat-faced ivory joint,
and with a brass radial pin.

It hits and plays beautifully.
 
Ken_4fun said:
This has been on AZ hundreds of times.

But to me importance of hit works from the tip back.

Tip
Ferrelle
Shaft taper / Shaft
Joint type / Pin

As far as a full splice verses a short splice, IMO, makes little to no difference.

So while the OP wanted to discuss the importance of a ivory joint, I think, the ivory, micarta, LBM or whatever, ferrelle is MUCH more important.

Ken
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Ken on this one. I will add that I have been having good luck with shafts that have juma ferules.
 
Each cue I have owned has had a slightly different feel, however, I've always felt that the Ivory joints, both flat faced & piloted felt similar. That is to say they have a slightly softer report than a steel joint. They also seem to me to have a similar feel as a wood to wood joint. Personally I liked the old brass joints, which no one seems to use anymore, but that's for another discusion.

If you have the means, try using the same shaft on both an Ivory joint, steel joint or even a wood joint to isolate the different feel the joint material produces.
 
Ken_4Fun brought out something that I profess to have very little knowledge of....only cursory.......yes my naysayers did you read that.
I'm stating at the outset that I know very little about the benefit. i.e., difference, of playing with a pool cue that is a full splice pool cue.

I am familiar with what a full splice cue is but I do not understand why it has any advantage over a short splice cue. So after reading
Ken_4Fun's post, it caused me to ponder about how much of a different feel a full splice cue might exhibit and why it would and when
the cue isn't full splice, perhaps the cue joint becomes more important for the feel or maybe it's the other way around?

Anyway, the question of full splice cues is a topic for another thread and I'd like to learn and hear more about this subject. I betcha a
lot of folks do not understand or even agree on what a full splice cue does or why it plays/feels different but I'm admitting up front I
have little knowledge on this topic.
 
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Ken_4fun said:
This has been on AZ hundreds of times.

But to me importance of hit works from the tip back.

Tip
Ferrelle
Shaft taper / Shaft
Joint type / Pin

As far as a full splice verses a short splice, IMO, makes little to no difference.

So while the OP wanted to discuss the importance of a ivory joint, I think, the ivory, micarta, LBM or whatever, ferrelle is MUCH more important.

Ken
Click to expand...

I'm with you Ken. "Hit" generates back from the ball, tip first then ferrule then either taper and shaft wood or shaft wood and taper. After that, joint, pin and splice and grip are all "feel", which is really transmitting feedback to your brain through your hand after the ball is struck. If the cue is "hitting" the ball the way you like, pocketing balls and moving the cue ball in a way that works for you, you will learn to like the "feel".

I guess I'm not in the "Billiard Industry" enough to understand the supposed superiority of Mottey's ivory joints. Paul for sure didn't develop them, and as precise as he was, he was no more precise in his work than a handful of guys that made piloted ivory joints. So the billiard industry must be talking (whispering in secret really) about some intangible quality.

Kevin
 
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Personally I think the joint material means very little. I've owned about every type out there other than a lambros ultra joint.

Tip, ferrule, shaft taper, balance, wood type in the butt, are all more important to me. The joint is there to hold two pieces together tightly. Obviously the joint material can effect the balance of the cue, which to me is very important. The tip, ferrule, taper, and wood type all provide feedback to my hands more than any joint type I've ever had on a cue.
 
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lenoxmjs said:
Pretty much like Ken said . Front to back

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
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Agreed.


What I find funny (peculiar) is how some people obsess over certain materials in cues. I have played and owned hundreds of all types. What matters most is how the individual plays with a cue. A pool cue is meant to pocket balls. Just like running a table, there are many ways to skin a cat. Find what works best for you and play with it. Stop being prejudice towards certain materials.

I am currently playing my very best pool. The cue happens to have a SS 1/2 joint.


Tip, taper and balance are what I consider to be important. Admittedly, I am not a fan of linen. It just doesn't allow my stroke to flow naturally.


Good topic but it's been beaten to death for years...
 
I agree that the joint material has little bearing on the way a cue plays. I also agree that it is from the tip back.. Shaft is everything for me when I choose a cue as my player..
 
Agreed Dan.....It's all comes down to the shafts wood...then tip, ferrule, no ferrule...insert..joint type...very little impact..etc. It's no surprise that all the great cue builders all have super high quality shaft wood...they all know how to select and treat them. Shaft wood is the cue builder life line....if they build a nice cue and put shitty shaft with their cue..they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Unfortunately...you have some young guns that built great looking cues but they don't either understand how to pick out good shaft wood or can't get them because the good builders buy them all up.

If you played with all of these high end cues like I did....you come to understand that great playing cues can be found with any type of joints and doesn't always have to be name brand cues that cost thousands --- funny enough...these great playing cues always come with great playing shaft wood. Everything else is personal preference and aesthetic.






ToomnyQs said:
I agree that the joint material has little bearing on the way a cue plays. I also agree that it is from the tip back.. Shaft is everything for me when I choose a cue as my player..
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Straightpool_99 said:
I'm not sure how important the joint is. I know for a fact that I can feel the difference between unilock joints and other metal joints. It's not of any importance to me, however, as long as the cue is well constructed. I currently use a custom cue with an unilock joint, while I don't like the unilock joint per se, the good qualities of the cue outweigh this fact.

For snooker I prefer 1 piece cues for the balance and the feel. Frankly, I find it weird that no one seems to prefer 1 piece cues made by custom makers for pool. It is a bit of an inconvenience to carry around, but many snooker players put up with it, so why don't pool players? When buying a snooker cue it is recommended by some to order a one-piece even if you want to have it jointed, since you are thereby guaranteed to get two sections made by the same piece of wood. You can always get the joint installed later, if you really want it. I'd love a pool cue made as a one piece made from old growth maple. That would be the ultimate in feel.
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I think the joint affects the balance of the cue -- lighter or heavier material mid-cue -- but bot playability. The only other thing going on is aesthetics. I personally have always loved the look of an ivory jointed cue so that's what I play with.

As far as playability, like others have said, it's about the tip, the ferrule, and the shaft.

Lou Figueroa
 
Let's assume that the shaft,tip and ferrule all are top quality,and top playability,I prefer a big pin, flat faced ivory joint.That's just me of course.The hit will be a little "softer" than steel,but I will sacrifice a little stiffness for the look.I like ivory.
Marc
 
lfigueroa said:
I think the joint affects the balance of the cue -- lighter or heavier material mid-cue -- but bot playability. The only other thing going on is aesthetics. I personally have always loved the look of an ivory jointed cue so that's what I play with.

As far as playability, like others have said, it's about the tip, the ferrule, and the shaft.

Lou Figueroa
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Lou

Yup. A steel piloted joint weighs (working from memory) .8 ounces more than a piloted ivory joint. So even in 2 cues weighing the same with different joints, all else being equal, the weight distribution will be different.

Now lets go ask Efren what he thinks about that .8 ounce while he's running rack after rack with a broom handle.

Kevin
 
kvinbrwr said:
Lou

Yup. A steel piloted joint weighs (working from memory) .8 ounces more than a piloted ivory joint. So even in 2 cues weighing the same with different joints, all else being equal, the weight distribution will be different.

Now lets go ask Efren what he thinks about that .8 ounce while he's running rack after rack with a broom handle.

Kevin
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Obviously joint material changes a cues hit. Joint material most certainly changes a cues balance point. I personally think more credit needs giving to a cues overall constuction which includes the butt section. I agree tip, ferrule, taper are the indicator of a cues hit. But you can put a quality shaft on a so-so butt and not find that magical feeling of hit. I have an piloted ivory jointed Jerry R, a couple of Jeff Olneys and a couple of Jim Pierces. All 5 cues hit differently. The 2 Olneys hit different from each other and the 2 Pierce cues hit different from each other and obviously the R cue is different again. Different tips, different ferrules but the one thing constant all 5 hit real good. The biggest constant is overall quality constuction from the cue makers. If a cue has quality construction techniques, I can change tips and find what Im looking for. If you have so-so overall quality constuction for the total pckg you will not find enough tips to change for a real quality hit and feel performance. By the way on Efrens broom, was that steel joint or ivory ? one persons opinion only, have a good one
 
I learned after speaking with my cue-maker that the joint, pin and actual shape of the shaft originating from the joint to the tip have a lot to do with the feel of the cue.
I spoke with Bob after getting a '07 Shurtz cue a week ago and I had him change the joint from piloted steel to a flat faced ivory joint with 3/8x11 brass pin.

So after laying the '07 Owen cue side by side with my other cues and comparing it physically and also playability with my Scruggs cue which is also a flat faced ivory
joint and my Mottey cue with piloted ivory joint, I called Bob since my custom won't be finished until next month and I might want to teak the shaft specs a little.

We discussed why Bob makes his cue shafts physically different than other cues by extension of the bell shape approximately 2.5" - 3" from the collar. He also makes
the cue joint oversized and uses a big pin in his flat ivory cue joints. I has a tangible effect on the feel of the cue's hit and so I actually modified the original specifications
that I originally provided Bob for the three shafts he's making for my custom cue.

So there are other more subtle factors that work hand in hand with the cue joint but a flat ivory cue joint just feels different to me than a piloted steel joint. I wouldn't have
switched to buying only ivory cue joints if I couldn't discern the difference......my 4th one arrives next month. I'm telling you there is a different feel but you might not like it.

Matt B.
 
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I recently bought a piloted ivory joint joss cue from the 70s. Aside from the balance point, feels the same as my two steel jointed Joss cues from the same era.
 
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