Johnny Archer vs. Allison Fisher?
- Thread starter crawfish
- Start date
Jaden said:
They rarely, if ever, play in them. The WPBA won't allow it. Karen has won tournaments on the Joss New England Tour. And these fields are full of good players.
crawfish said:
This begs the question.....slow drum roll please.
CAN YOU BEAT ALLISON?
no sh&t
duh, was just replying because someone thought she beat earl, i've beat plenty of good players in tournies too, but i ain't saying i'm better either, personally i thinK Allison would get runover by Johnny or SVB, or any other top pro in a race to 100!crawfish said:
I don't think I'd give it a whirl for anything substantial, no. My point was, someone stated that "Corr beat Johnny". One race, so what. That doesn't mean she would continually beat him. Come to think of it, I probably, or would have to play. I used to play at Mother's in Charlotte, and have been exposed to her and Gerda. I'm not saying I'm the favorite. I just mean I'd have to play. I think there are a lot of guys that play that would take a short shot.jay helfert said:
crawfish said:
Thanks for the straight answer, spoken like a real pool player. As for me, no way! Up till a few years ago, I didn't think any women could beat me in One Pocket or Banks. Thanks to Jeanette and Vivian I found out different.
av84fun said:
Does having somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 Accu-Stats and other assorted pool match videos count? As well as actually WATCHING those videos minimum average of 90 minutes daily for the past year and half? (Remember, I'm in Iraq. No movies theaters, no malls.
)At least 20 of those matches are Johnny playing. Of all the matches I have watched Johnny in, I think I can count the number of "moderate" open shots Johnny has missed on my fingers. The guy's a freak. He used to have a awesome percentage on the really tough shots too, when he was younger.
My statement had nothing to do with how the men and women play AGAINST each other, as there obviously are very few matches of them against one another. It had to do with comparative performances.
No doubt, Allison and Karen are top of the heap as far as the women are concerned. My view is that we don't really know whether either of them will be able to play their normal game against MUCH stiffer competition than they are used to.
The men play often in an environment where one miss means the potential loss of two to three game EVERY TIME they miss, when they leave an open table. The women don't, as of right now. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just the way things are.
Is there much doubt that Johnny will play to his usual standard if he played a woman a long match? Not in my mind. I don't think it will make much of a difference to him. In Allison or Karen's head, however, the first time Johnny lays down a 5 pack, who knows what happens? Really, Karen and Allison get put under that kind of strain very rarely, and most of the time, only when playing each other.
I don't know where the pushback here is coming from. I am by no means denigrating the top women's play. It's just that in most of the WPBA tournaments, they play against competitors that will not punish them as badly as a top male pro.
Am I saying that Allison and Karen are not capable of winning against a top male pro, after the break factor has been equalized? No, I am not. I think the potential is there. I don't personally think so, because the top women have not played in the top open events enough to get used to the immense pressure.
I was actually very impressed with Jasmin Ouschan's play in the DCC 9 ball match I watched with her against Tony Crosby. That being said, Tony had a bad match, and I could definitely see there were a few things Jasmin had to work on, to be up there with the top guys. I like her playing style more than Karen and Allison, as she seems to have more "power" in her game. As in, she can really muscle the ball around the table if she needs to.
All in all, the women are definitely progressing, at the top levels. They'll progress faster if they compete against the guys, I think. It's very possible, that if we find a way to offset the break advantage, they can win consistently against the top guys.
In my OP, I was just saying, I don't think that time is quite here yet.The women don't have enough competition to get as tough as they need to be.
That being said, I don't think the top women play nearly as bad as
instroke75 would have us believe. Karen has won big MALE regional events. Multiple times. Woofing at women ranked outside the top 24 is ludicrous, IMHO.. Because we all know the talent drop off is huge somewhere around that point. I know a few women over in Germany though, that would be happy to play some guys that shoot at that speed. And they are considered medium level players over there.
And they aren't anyone you've heard of.Russ
Good point Russ. It's hard to tell how someone will react, knowing who they are playing. Johnny kicks it off with a three, then a lockdown safe, then a five. It could be a long day. I just don't see even the top women doing that. I do feel it would affect their play.Russ Chewning said:Does having somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 Accu-Stats and other assorted pool match videos count? As well as actually WATCHING those videos minimum average of 90 minutes daily for the past year and half? (Remember, I'm in Iraq. No movies theaters, no malls.
At least 20 of those matches are Johnny playing. Of all the matches I have watched Johnny in, I think I can count the number of "moderate" open shots Johnny has missed on my fingers. The guy's a freak. He used to have a awesome percentage on the really tough shots too, when he was younger.
My statement had nothing to do with how the men and women play AGAINST each other, as there obviously are very few matches of them against one another. It had to do with comparative performances.
No doubt, Allison and Karen are top of the heap as far as the women are concerned. My view is that we don't really know whether either of them will be able to play their normal game against MUCH stiffer competition than they are used to.
The men play often in an environment where one miss means the potential loss of two to three game EVERY TIME they miss, when they leave an open table. The women don't, as of right now. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just the way things are.
Is there much doubt that Johnny will play to his usual standard if he played a woman a long match? Not in my mind. I don't think it will make much of a difference to him. In Allison or Karen's head, however, the first time Johnny lays down a 5 pack, who knows what happens? Really, Karen and Allison get put under that kind of strain very rarely, and most of the time, only when playing each other.
I don't know where the pushback here is coming from. I am by no means denigrating the top women's play. It's just that in most of the WPBA tournaments, they play against competitors that will not punish them as badly as a top male pro.
Am I saying that Allison and Karen are not capable of winning against a top male pro, after the break factor has been equalized? No, I am not. I think the potential is there. I don't personally think so, because the top women have not played in the top open events enough to get used to the immense pressure.
I was actually very impressed with Jasmin Ouschan's play in the DCC 9 ball match I watched with her against Tony Crosby. That being said, Tony had a bad match, and I could definitely see there were a few things Jasmin had to work on, to be up there with the top guys. I like her playing style more than Karen and Allison, as she seems to have more "power" in her game. As in, she can really muscle the ball around the table if she needs to.
All in all, the women are definitely progressing, at the top levels. They'll progress faster if they compete against the guys, I think. It's very possible, that if we find a way to offset the break advantage, they can win consistently against the top guys.
In my OP, I was just saying, I don't think that time is quite here yet.The women don't have enough competition to get as tough as they need to be.
That being said, I don't think the top women play nearly as bad as
instroke75 would have us believe. Karen has won big MALE regional events. Multiple times. Woofing at women ranked outside the top 24 is ludicrous, IMHO.. Because we all know the talent drop off is huge somewhere around that point. I know a few women over in Germany though, that would be happy to play some guys that shoot at that speed. And they are considered medium level players over there.
Russ
john schmidt said:
John, as you know, Allison doesn't even play 14.1 competitively...if at all.
Jeanette is not even in the Top 10 on the WPBA and has not been much of a threat for several years. NO disprespect intended...just a statement of fact.
So, citing Jeanette's 152 is not at all relevent to how good the top female players COULD be if they DID play straight pool.
And I admire your truthfulness in stating that giving Alli 40 games in EITHER winner or alternate breaks would be a horse race.
I am sure you have already done the math on a 40 game spot, alternate break. But if you win 100% of the racks on your break and Alli wins only 75% on her break, the you tie a race to 100 with 160 total racks played.
(160/2=80...which = you winning 100% of racks on your break +25% of the other 80 racks =20+80=100)
That leaves 80 racks of which Alli wins 75% on her break =60 racks +the 40 racks on the wire = 100.
So you're right...TOUGH match.
Regards,
Jim
Russ,crawfish said:
I wasn't saying they play bad, just not at the level of the top males!
Jeremy
Alternate Break?
What is with you alternate break people? Half the fun and excitement of playing pool is trying to string racks, be it straight, nine or 8-ball. It gives the better player a chance of stringing racks and getting in deadstroke. and the break is a big part of 8&9-ball. Winner breaks allows for some great comebacks as well. All alternate break is good for, is to even up talent in short races.
Jay; I would also like to have a complete list (I'm sure it will be very short) of men Jeanette will not play and how much someone can post for the others (no on the spot add ons to the list please).
Thanks
Mark
What is with you alternate break people? Half the fun and excitement of playing pool is trying to string racks, be it straight, nine or 8-ball. It gives the better player a chance of stringing racks and getting in deadstroke. and the break is a big part of 8&9-ball. Winner breaks allows for some great comebacks as well. All alternate break is good for, is to even up talent in short races.
Jay; I would also like to have a complete list (I'm sure it will be very short) of men Jeanette will not play and how much someone can post for the others (no on the spot add ons to the list please).
Thanks
Mark
instroke75 said:
Jeremy,
No problems then, bro. It's just that a lot of times, you've talked about woofing at one of the lesser ranked women pros, and it kind of comes across that you didn't think highly of women's play at all.
No doubt, when it gets past the top ten of the USA women players, and those who've been competing in the USA a while, the standard of play leaves something to be desired. The women are suffering from the same lack of money in pool that the men are, they are just lucky enough to have a tour that supports the top two or three players.
In Germany, which encourages the game from more of the sports participation angle, and has very well run, high caliber play, and HUGE leagues, the women there are fairly hard to deal with. Most of the good women players ran 100 balls while still in their teens, and are encouraged to play and compete with the men.
Anyways... Just letting you know, man.. Sometimes when you tell about how you woofed at a certain female player, and she backed down, you make it seem like it is just accepted that you'll be able to beat any woman you don't know.
While for the most part, that may be true, just trying to say, for most of us developing players (which I would assume you put yourself in the same boat, even though you play goot), we might want to be careful woofing at any woman we don't knwo, and haven't seen play, if she has a foreign accent.
For all we know, she's won multiple national titles in her home country, and no one in the US might have heard of her yet. Ya know?Again, let the past be the past, man. I know you and I have had run ins in the past. I am going to be looking for someone to run to regional tournaments and such with. You might not believe it, having only seen me play when I haven't played for 6-7 years, but I play pretty good when in stroke. See you when I get back in town.
Russ
and the balls are monstrous compared to snooker balls..
I keep hearing how much tighter snooker tables are compared to pool tables but they don't seem to ever mention how much smaller snooker balls are than pool balls. I'm not saying its easier to pot balls on a snooker table but come on...I think the biggest difficulty for pool players playing snooker isn't adjusting to the size difference between the pockets, but between the balls. The balls also rebound from each other slightly differently than pool balls because of the mass differential....
I was having a conversation with Frank the Barber the other day and we were talking about how we have our pockets cut so tight that when people come over they don't want to play us on our tables, and Frank was considering, Ernesto can come over and redo his table, having the pockets widened out, not too much but to like 41/4 so that it's still geared to be able to play one pocket but isn't quite so difficult either...
Unless you play on a really tough table for a length of time and become accustomed to how accurate you have to be, especially from certain angles, you don't understand how much someone who's used to playing on easier equipment, even a table with 4.5 inch pockets will have difficulty on a tighter table atleast until they get accustomed to it....
The weekly tournies I play in have two different types of tables, they have tables that have 4.25" pockets and tables that have 4.5" pockets and I much prefer to play on the tables that have the tighter pockets. It's funny to see the players that would normally run out on the table with the easier pockets miss on a regular basis on the tighter tables.
CoryNYC said:
I keep hearing how much tighter snooker tables are compared to pool tables but they don't seem to ever mention how much smaller snooker balls are than pool balls. I'm not saying its easier to pot balls on a snooker table but come on...I think the biggest difficulty for pool players playing snooker isn't adjusting to the size difference between the pockets, but between the balls. The balls also rebound from each other slightly differently than pool balls because of the mass differential....
I was having a conversation with Frank the Barber the other day and we were talking about how we have our pockets cut so tight that when people come over they don't want to play us on our tables, and Frank was considering, Ernesto can come over and redo his table, having the pockets widened out, not too much but to like 41/4 so that it's still geared to be able to play one pocket but isn't quite so difficult either...
Unless you play on a really tough table for a length of time and become accustomed to how accurate you have to be, especially from certain angles, you don't understand how much someone who's used to playing on easier equipment, even a table with 4.5 inch pockets will have difficulty on a tighter table atleast until they get accustomed to it....
The weekly tournies I play in have two different types of tables, they have tables that have 4.25" pockets and tables that have 4.5" pockets and I much prefer to play on the tables that have the tighter pockets. It's funny to see the players that would normally run out on the table with the easier pockets miss on a regular basis on the tighter tables.
Madcity said:
By "better player", I take it you mean the one who was physically gifted with gonads at birth?
Let's get this straight. Yes, men are stronger, and have an innate advantage on the break. Another point is, the public likes to see games in which men and women can compete as equals. So, the absolute FAIREST thing to do is to try to find a way to take physical strength out of the equation. If you want to watch a contest of physical strength, watch the ToughMan contests on ESPN..
We're just trying to make it fair, man.
Russ
Russ Chewning said:Does having somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 Accu-Stats and other assorted pool match videos count? As well as actually WATCHING those videos minimum average of 90 minutes daily for the past year and half? (Remember, I'm in Iraq. No movies theaters, no malls.
At least 20 of those matches are Johnny playing. Of all the matches I have watched Johnny in, I think I can count the number of "moderate" open shots Johnny has missed on my fingers. The guy's a freak. He used to have a awesome percentage on the really tough shots too, when he was younger.
My statement had nothing to do with how the men and women play AGAINST each other, as there obviously are very few matches of them against one another. It had to do with comparative performances.
No doubt, Allison and Karen are top of the heap as far as the women are concerned. My view is that we don't really know whether either of them will be able to play their normal game against MUCH stiffer competition than they are used to.
The men play often in an environment where one miss means the potential loss of two to three game EVERY TIME they miss, when they leave an open table. The women don't, as of right now. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just the way things are.
Is there much doubt that Johnny will play to his usual standard if he played a woman a long match? Not in my mind. I don't think it will make much of a difference to him. In Allison or Karen's head, however, the first time Johnny lays down a 5 pack, who knows what happens? Really, Karen and Allison get put under that kind of strain very rarely, and most of the time, only when playing each other.
I don't know where the pushback here is coming from. I am by no means denigrating the top women's play. It's just that in most of the WPBA tournaments, they play against competitors that will not punish them as badly as a top male pro.
Am I saying that Allison and Karen are not capable of winning against a top male pro, after the break factor has been equalized? No, I am not. I think the potential is there. I don't personally think so, because the top women have not played in the top open events enough to get used to the immense pressure.
I was actually very impressed with Jasmin Ouschan's play in the DCC 9 ball match I watched with her against Tony Crosby. That being said, Tony had a bad match, and I could definitely see there were a few things Jasmin had to work on, to be up there with the top guys. I like her playing style more than Karen and Allison, as she seems to have more "power" in her game. As in, she can really muscle the ball around the table if she needs to.
All in all, the women are definitely progressing, at the top levels. They'll progress faster if they compete against the guys, I think. It's very possible, that if we find a way to offset the break advantage, they can win consistently against the top guys.
In my OP, I was just saying, I don't think that time is quite here yet.The women don't have enough competition to get as tough as they need to be.
That being said, I don't think the top women play nearly as bad as
instroke75 would have us believe. Karen has won big MALE regional events. Multiple times. Woofing at women ranked outside the top 24 is ludicrous, IMHO.. Because we all know the talent drop off is huge somewhere around that point. I know a few women over in Germany though, that would be happy to play some guys that shoot at that speed. And they are considered medium level players over there.
Russ
First, Russ, even though you are a self-professed "scumbag contractor" you are providing badly needed services in a very dangerous environment and I join with everyone else in thanking you for what you are doing.
No "pushback" intended.
Yes, watching videos counts. I have nearly as many in my collection as you have in yours and have TIVO'd every single male and female tournament broadcast over the past several years...and watch them REPEATEDLY. In addition, I have attended at least a dozen WPBA events in the past few years, so with all due and genuine respect, I've viewed as many matches as you have..if not more.
In the case of karen and alli, I simply don't agree that they "dog" any greater percentage of shots as the typical top ranked male pro. Did you watch Efren and Busta dogging...like the 8 Ball recently? (-:
As for playing under pressure, the women have the U.S. Open...the Nationals....the BCA and the TOC where the pressure just can't be any greater than it already is. Not being a contact sport, pool players play against the TABLE not against their opponent so I don't think that a woman playing a man would be under any greater pressure than when playing against themselves.
In fact, there is a good argument to the contrary....that the woman would not be expected to win and that merely turning in a tough competitive performance would be reward enough. On the other hand, the man would be under tremendous pressure not to lose to some little girl.
Bottom line, I meant no smack down. It's just that I don't believe that karen or alli "dog" any greater % of makable shots then the men do and I know of no data that would support that notion.
Regards,
Jim
Hey, even I beat Allison. At a BCA Trade Show, she broke and ran out. She broke again and didn't make anything and I ran out. Then I had to leave. I beat her on fewer misses. And better racking.jay helfert said: