Johnny Archer vs. Allison Fisher?

[av84fun]

What is with you alternate break people? Half the fun and excitement of playing pool is trying to string racks, be it straight, nine or 8-ball. It gives the better player a chance of stringing racks and getting in deadstroke. and the break is a big part of 8&9-ball. Winner breaks allows for some great comebacks as well. All alternate break is good for, is to even up talent in short races.

Jay; I would also like to have a complete list (I'm sure it will be very short) of men Jeanette will not play and how much someone can post for the others (no on the spot add ons to the list please).

Thanks
Mark

Winner breaks is a SILLY rule and as I have stated is just an OLD hustle move.

Name ONE major sport where the person/team that scores the equivalent of a "point" (or a game in tennis) gets to "keep the ball" and attempt to score another point.

The ONLY example of that is the Safety, in football where the team scored against has to give ball possession back to the scoring team.

In hockey, there is a center ice face off after a goal which is NOT relinquishing control to the scoring team.

You, of course, can think its cool to see a bunch of racks strung together...I genuinely respect whatever floats your boat. But the UTTER NONSENSE of the WPC...where a world champion like Fiejen loses 11-0 and practically never left is chair was a total JOKE.

Regards,
Jim

 

[RunoutalloverU]

Winner breaks is a SILLY rule and as I have stated is just an OLD hustle move.

Name ONE major sport where the person/team that scores the equivalent of a "point" (or a game in tennis) gets to "keep the ball" and attempt to score another point.

The ONLY example of that is the Safety, in football where the team scored against has to give ball possession back to the scoring team.

In hockey, there is a center ice face off after a goal which is NOT relinquishing control to the scoring team.

You, of course, can think its cool to see a bunch of racks strung together...I genuinely respect whatever floats your boat. But the UTTER NONSENSE of the WPC...where a world champion like Fiejen loses 11-0 and practically never left is chair was a total JOKE.

Regards,
Jim

Well said and 100 percent correct.

 

[rossaroni]

Winner breaks is a SILLY rule and as I have stated is just an OLD hustle move.

Name ONE major sport where the person/team that scores the equivalent of a "point" (or a game in tennis) gets to "keep the ball" and attempt to score another point.

The ONLY example of that is the Safety, in football where the team scored against has to give ball possession back to the scoring team.

In hockey, there is a center ice face off after a goal which is NOT relinquishing control to the scoring team.

You, of course, can think its cool to see a bunch of racks strung together...I genuinely respect whatever floats your boat. But the UTTER NONSENSE of the WPC...where a world champion like Fiejen loses 11-0 and practically never left is chair was a total JOKE.

Regards,
Jim

I understand your point, but it seems that straight pool was/is the same way. How would you like to change 14.1, so you give the players an equal chance? I am sure there have been many more matches run out in 14.1 then 9-ball(longer races).

 

[Jaden]

It's not a silly rule....

Winner breaks is a SILLY rule and as I have stated is just an OLD hustle move.

Name ONE major sport where the person/team that scores the equivalent of a "point" (or a game in tennis) gets to "keep the ball" and attempt to score another point.

The ONLY example of that is the Safety, in football where the team scored against has to give ball possession back to the scoring team.

In hockey, there is a center ice face off after a goal which is NOT relinquishing control to the scoring team.

You, of course, can think its cool to see a bunch of racks strung together...I genuinely respect whatever floats your boat. But the UTTER NONSENSE of the WPC...where a world champion like Fiejen loses 11-0 and practically never left is chair was a total JOKE.

Regards,
Jim

Billiards, even races of multiple games, is a play till you miss.. IT would be like having a free throw shooting contest in basketball or a three point shooting contest and seeing who can make 100 shots first you shoot until you miss and then the opponent shoots, but wait, after ten shots you have to go ahead and let the opponent shoot though....to amke it more fair because you might make 30-50 shots before you miss and he won't be able to....

 

[Russ Chewning]

Bottom line, I meant no smack down. It's just that I don't believe that karen or alli "dog" any greater % of makable shots then the men do and I know of no data that would support that notion.

Regards,
Jim

Ahh.. I think I get where the misunderstanding is, now. I might have insinuated that Karen and Allison "dog" shots, but that was not my intention. I was talking about most of the other competitors on the WPBA.

The pressure I was talking about is how Karen and Allison play the "2nd tier" WPBA pros, who will get out of position, and end up playing a safe, such that the top two ladies know, that they will have at least some chance in that game.

In the male pro tournaments, forcing your opponent to kick three rails by no means guarantees that you will get a good look at the ball, or that they won't KICK IN the ball, and the same is not true in the WPBA. Not to mention the fact that your typical male pro gets out of position MUCH less than your 2nd tier WPBA pros. And when they do, they just bang in the hard shot anyways, and run out.

A perfect example is Shane Van Boening's first match against Ronnie Alcano in the US Open. He totally took control of the match. He put Ronnie under IMMENSE pressure. Ronnie had to run 3 racks every time he got to the table to have a chance.

Now, that's not a fair comparison to Karen playing Ms. anonymous 24th ranked WPBA pro, but you get the point. Karen or Allison I would figure to be a 11-5 favorite over the #24 ranked woman... Pretty much every time they played, if they played races to 11. I would not say the same is true on the men's tour. Shane cannot be an 11-5 favorite over ANYONE in the top 50, unless that person has a very bad match. He might "get lucky" for a tournament, but he's not going to consistently spot the field six games.

So, what I am saying is, no.. Karen and Allison don't really "dog it". It's easy not to dog it when you are playing much weaker players, tho. Again, not denigrating their skills! But, the point must be made.. I am not sure how Allison/Karen would perform under the pressure of standing to lose 2-3 games every time they miss a ball. Against 5 players in a row who play that well.

I know, I know.. They rarely miss balls.. But when they DO miss a really tough shot that they are forced to take, and a top male pro puts a 3-4-5 pack on them.. Do they have the mental toughness to step up and run two racks afterwards, and then play a very delicate safe, get ball in hand, and run 2-3 more racks?

I don't know, because the current female players don't put them under that kind of pressure day in-day out, the way the men do.

See what I am saying? These great women players make very, very, very few technical errors, but Efren, Johnny, Ronnie, Shane, etc.. end up beating lots of people who only make 1-2 errors per match.

Russ

 

[wincardona]

players breaking down

Allison,Karen,and Janette are champions in the league that they play in. They all hold up very well under pressure ,playing players that are reasonably close to their speed. They negotiate situations well playing one another,but when faced with the best male players in the world,under the right conditions they will be in uncharted waters.Playing on 4 3/4 inch pokets with a new fast surface they will remain competitive. Playing 10 ball on 4 1/4 inch pokets will be too much for any of them to deal with playing the upper echelon players.There will be too many decisions for them to negotiate well,simply because that they are unfamiliar with the problems and options. So cosequently they will break down,and when they do winning games will be extremely difficult. Especially when they will suffer in the breaking area of the game.If I had to bet, my money it would be on Archer giving 40 games to 100.

 

[Johnnyt]

Thanks for the straight answer, spoken like a real pool player. As for me, no way! Up till a few years ago, I didn't think any women could beat me in One Pocket or Banks. Thanks to Jeanette and Vivian I found out different.

I got you beat Jay. I lost to Jeanette, Vivian, Miyuki Saki...and a few more over the years. I beat the Johnson sister that was on the WPBA (but she was pretty young at that time). I believe I played and lost to Kim Jones on a bar table somewhere(drinking) in NC about 12 years ago. Johnnyt

 

[crawfish]

Winner breaks is a SILLY rule and as I have stated is just an OLD hustle move.

Name ONE major sport where the person/team that scores the equivalent of a "point" (or a game in tennis) gets to "keep the ball" and attempt to score another point.

The ONLY example of that is the Safety, in football where the team scored against has to give ball possession back to the scoring team.

In hockey, there is a center ice face off after a goal which is NOT relinquishing control to the scoring team.

You, of course, can think its cool to see a bunch of racks strung together...I genuinely respect whatever floats your boat. But the UTTER NONSENSE of the WPC...where a world champion like Fiejen loses 11-0 and practically never left is chair was a total JOKE.

Regards,
Jim

Yeah, but what about the guy that can string 10? He shouldn't be rewarded with some respect?

 

[crawfish]

Allison,Karen,and Janette are champions in the league that they play in. They all hold up very well under pressure ,playing players that are reasonably close to their speed. They negotiate situations well playing one another,but when faced with the best male players in the world,under the right conditions they will be in uncharted waters.Playing on 4 3/4 inch pokets with a new fast surface they will remain competitive. Playing 10 ball on 4 1/4 inch pokets will be too much for any of them to deal with playing the upper echelon players.There will be too many decisions for them to negotiate well,simply because that they are unfamiliar with the problems and options. So cosequently they will break down,and when they do winning games will be extremely difficult. Especially when they will suffer in the breaking area of the game.If I had to bet, my money it would be on Archer giving 40 games to 100.

Tap. Tap. Well said, sir.

 

[jayburger]

i played a guy named chewtobacco at his house in north carolina. i gave him the 8 six ahead for 200.after about 10 hours i was 4 sets winner, it was kind of tough.anyway he told me he gambled with allison and beat her and she refused to play anymore.i dont know if thats true.but hopkins told me he gives karen the 7 on her home table and its a war .he is past his prime though.he will be the first to admit that.ill tell you what i think karen and allison play great so heres what ill do. because i break harder i would not want that to be an advantage.ill play either of them or both the ten ball ghost and anything that goes on the break spots up.that way you have to break soft.we could both break 100 times and see who gets the highest total.the highest possible score being 1000.i think they could give me a serious run for my money but i would be willing to bet high.

i was with chew at mothers in charlotte and he played allison a race to 11 for 300(kelly oyama was staking allison) she won the first 3 to take a 3-0 lead and from there chew killed her 11-4. after the set chew said"flip it" and allison and kelly politely declined. this match was in the mid 90s if i remember correctly. chew also went to charlotte and beat kelly fisher a 10 ahead set in the last couple of years. as john said, chew plays more than the 8 under him and the best women pros haven't gotten there yet for the cash. i respect the women players ,but if you think they play as well as top male pros you are delusional.

 

[sde]

Baseball

Winner breaks is a SILLY rule and as I have stated is just an OLD hustle move.

Name ONE major sport where the person/team that scores the equivalent of a "point" (or a game in tennis) gets to "keep the ball" and attempt to score another point.

The ONLY example of that is the Safety, in football where the team scored against has to give ball possession back to the scoring team.

In hockey, there is a center ice face off after a goal which is NOT relinquishing control to the scoring team.

You, of course, can think its cool to see a bunch of racks strung together...I genuinely respect whatever floats your boat. But the UTTER NONSENSE of the WPC...where a world champion like Fiejen loses 11-0 and practically never left is chair was a total JOKE.

Regards,
Jim

In baseball the team at bat is allowed to continue to score until their inning is completed.

I am remaining open minded as to whether or not I prefer alternate or winner breaks, but in baseball imo it would be silly for the team at bat to be forced to end their inning after one score.

Steve

 

[jay helfert]

What is with you alternate break people? Half the fun and excitement of playing pool is trying to string racks, be it straight, nine or 8-ball. It gives the better player a chance of stringing racks and getting in deadstroke. and the break is a big part of 8&9-ball. Winner breaks allows for some great comebacks as well. All alternate break is good for, is to even up talent in short races.

Jay; I would also like to have a complete list (I'm sure it will be very short) of men Jeanette will not play and how much someone can post for the others (no on the spot add ons to the list please).

Thanks
Mark

No such list exists. Any match-up has to be on a person by person basis. I can't match up for her. Only she can determine who she will or won't play. All I can do is support her and put some money in with her.

What I wanted to make clear is that Jeanette is one woman who will not back down from a match with a man. She would probably match up with most anyone, given the right game. And there are many players she can play an All Around match even, no weight needed. There aren't many she needs weight from, just the champions and top roadmen.

I wouldn't mind going in with her if she was playing some high speed shortstop 14.1, Banks, One Pocket and 9-Ball. You can probably throw in Three Cushions as well. Bottom line, Jeanette is the best all around women player, with Vivian second and Monica third. Have you ever seen Vivian bank? Nice talking to ya!

I get a little tired of guys knocking the women. Most of the knockers would have no chance playing any of the above three. These girls can play and they WILL gamble! They are POOLPLAYERS who happen to be women!

 

[jay helfert]

One more thing Jay, is Jeanette even the best all round player that lives at the same address as she?

You'd have to ask George that question. I bet he doesn't want to play her any 14.1 to see who buys dinner.

 

[Madcity]

Make it Fair

By "better player", I take it you mean the one who was physically gifted with gonads at birth?

Let's get this straight. Yes, men are stronger, and have an innate advantage on the break. Another point is, the public likes to see games in which men and women can compete as equals. So, the absolute FAIREST thing to do is to try to find a way to take physical strength out of the equation. If you want to watch a contest of physical strength, watch the ToughMan contests on ESPN..

We're just trying to make it fair, man.

Russ

By make it fair does that mean so that you can compete? I think if I remember right you wre born with gonads but I really don't know what that has to do with your break. Nick Varner, Keith McCready and Johny Archer all weighed barely a 100 lbs. in their prime but had killer breaks. So what is your point?

The fairness I want to see is the well rounded player (and yes that also includes the break) be able to run racks!

One more thing Russ I think I know several of those born without gonads that might be able to break your arm.

Mark

 

[jay helfert]

Allison,Karen,and Janette are champions in the league that they play in. They all hold up very well under pressure ,playing players that are reasonably close to their speed. They negotiate situations well playing one another,but when faced with the best male players in the world,under the right conditions they will be in uncharted waters.Playing on 4 3/4 inch pokets with a new fast surface they will remain competitive. Playing 10 ball on 4 1/4 inch pokets will be too much for any of them to deal with playing the upper echelon players.There will be too many decisions for them to negotiate well,simply because that they are unfamiliar with the problems and options. So cosequently they will break down,and when they do winning games will be extremely difficult. Especially when they will suffer in the breaking area of the game.If I had to bet, my money it would be on Archer giving 40 games to 100.

Expert analysis here! Read it again carefully, because Billy is very specific about the advantages top men have over top women. I agree with him up to a point. 40 games is a lot of weight to carry. If I was forced to bet, I would take the "dog", or in this case Allison or Karen. I actually prefer Karen as she has more experience competing against men.

 

[derekdisco]

It takes a lot of heart to say "Karen and Alison would get beat by shane, alex, johnny"

This kind of thread popps up once every couple months, and nothing changes in the arguments.

 

[Madcity]

You'd have to ask George that question. I bet he doesn't want to play her any 14.1 to see who buys dinner.

How about sex? George might start going 150 and out everytime.

 

[sde]

How about sex

Do you get many positive responses to that question?

Steve

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

I get a little tired of guys knocking the women. Most of the knockers would have no chance playing any of the above three. These girls can play and they WILL gamble! They are POOLPLAYERS who happen to be women!

Me too! Unless you're a top tier (SVB, Archer, Schmidt, etc.) player, they will beat you at 9ball. Don't believe me, try them out, I'll bet on them.

If an alternate break 9 ball game goes off with Allison or Karen getting 40 games on the wire to 100 from anyone, I'll put some cash on the women.

I have a bet with a local guy (I think it's the same guy that Samm Diep wrote about in her latest article) that I'll take either one of those two against him for $1k. He would need the 7ball IMO. If they play even I might bet more.

 

[jay helfert]

It takes a lot of heart to say "Karen and Alison would get beat by shane, alex, johnny"

This kind of thread popps up once every couple months, and nothing changes in the arguments.

Derek, I'd like to see them make a line on any individual tournament match the above women play against any men. I don't care who they're playing, I'll take 2-1 all day and all night. And that's not a bad line for the guys either.