joint pin question

[JoeyInCali]

I

It's funny that you should bring that up. My a joint is small because I loved the playability of my Kershenbroch form the 80s. When I started making cue I played with a cue from the Philippines that had a thinner handle and fell in love again.

So maybe I should send some doodles to Manilla for not changing it. LOL:grin:

Do you you a collet when live threading your pin hole?

Collet on a 1" ID bearing on the steady rest .


This thread might remind you.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=289576&page=2&highlight=bender
Send doodles this way.

 

[Sheldon]

I am not the smartest guy in the world but I am pretty darned smart and know how to judge a cockeyed cue or taper. So the idea concerning physical shaft wood moving and blowing the concentricity of the threaded insert and the pin device out of line is not the case from my seat.

You still don't seem to be understanding the point that is being made.
When the shaft moves between cuts, and is trued up in subsequent cuts, the centerline has shifted slightly. As has the centerline of your threaded insert. You might argue that it doesn't move enough to bother you, but you can't say it wont move. Unless you reject reality. This is why most people put their threads in after final cutting. It's really the only way to guarantee that the centerlines of the shaft and the threads line up. (Assuming the shaft stays straight).

 

[RBC]

Sheldon

I think that once Rick install's the joint threads he then inserts a drive pin in the shaft. He then uses this pin for all turning there after. He doesn't use the center on the back of the pin, he actually chucks down on the pin with, by his proclamation .0002" runout, and supports the tip end on a live center for the turning.

In this scenario, if the shaft has moved any at all, the center hole in the tip end of the cue shaft will not be naturally in line with the live center on the taper machine. Meaning that it must be "bent" over to align before turning. If this is the case, the cue shaft is under stress or tension as it's being turned, and will naturally return to it's "happy place" once the live center's support is removed after turning. Obviously, that's not exactly keeping the shaft straight.


Royce

 

[scdiveteam]

Sheldon,

I understand what you are saying and in a respectfully way I might add concerning runing between two 60 degree wood centers, then threading after final size.

The center ramp on my brass pin is much larger than most people put on the joint size of their shafts in wood. When the dead center engages that face angle vs center ramp seat it is a constant datum point. So if the centerline of my head stock does not change and center ramp alignment seating remains constant and the pin is ridged embedded over 1" in the shaft so my threads will remain parallel to the centerline on that side. The shaft center on the tail stock side is concentric to the live center.

lets say the middle of the shaft moves .010 between cuts (which we both agree is a lot and would doubtless be a problematic shaft that should have been rejected before the first 7 taper turn of it's life) we would also both agree that there would be a very visible bounce going on.

If the seating of my ramp of the two metal surfaces remain seated during the next cut, the high side of the oscillating shaft will cut out more that the low side and as the saw blade approaches the tail stock center the differential between the high side and low side eventually equalizes nearer to end and the tip is alway concentric. Lets say it that's 2 .010 passes to straighten out the wiggle, my threads will be parallel to the entire taper contour. This is the entire reason for cutting shafts this way shafts. As I said, I never face the shaft after tapering and never test roll a shaft until it is finished and buffed. Guess what, I know what to expect. How many can say that!

If a shaft is bad and off any amount at final, I agree that the inserts threads will not be aligned with the tail stock center and overall taper geometry. If this happened to you or the rest of the guys knocking my method, it would never get threaded a go to the garbage.

As I said before in the description of my shafts and how they roll I can only make the following statement. Opinions are like A Holes and everyone has one. I have been doing this thing for ten years and have built about 400 shafts this way.

When anyone else feels like they want to stand up and call me a Lier, uniformed crack pot or whatever, please remember that these sentiments are based on Zero experience with this method on their part.

That's the part that amazes me. If someone wanted to make a real argument with data to back them up all they would need to do is spend 10.00 on a pin to make a device and have at it making some saw dust. I know that there would be a lot of silence afterward.

As I said I know there is a lot of knowledge in the room but if you have to disagree with me I understand and know all of the whys.

JMO,

Rick

 

[cutter]

joint

So just to be clear, when you turn the shaft with the pin in it. Are you chucking up the pin or are you driving off of a center in the back of the pin.
Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Canadian cue]

Sheldon,

I understand what you are saying and in a respectfully way I might add concerning runing between two 60 degree wood centers, then threading after final size.

The center ramp on my brass pin is much larger than most people put on the joint size of their shafts in wood. When the dead center engages that face angle vs center ramp seat it is a constant datum point. So if the centerline of my head stock does not change and center ramp alignment seating remains constant and the pin is ridged embedded over 1" in the shaft so my threads will remain parallel to the centerline on that side. The shaft center on the tail stock side is concentric to the live center.

lets say the middle of the shaft moves .010 between cuts (which we both agree is a lot and would doubtless be a problematic shaft that should have been rejected before the first 7 taper turn of it's life) we would also both agree that there would be a very visible bounce going on.

If the seating of my ramp of the two metal surfaces remain seated during the next cut, the high side of the oscillating shaft will cut out more that the low side and as the saw blade approaches the tail stock center the differential between the high side and low side eventually equalizes nearer to end and the tip is alway concentric.

If a shaft is bad and off any amount at final, I agree that the inserts threads will not be aligned with the tail stock center and overall taper geometry. If this happened to you or the rest of the guys knocking my method, it would never get threaded a go to the garbage.

As I said before in the description of my shafts and how they roll I can only make the following statement. Opinions are like A Holes and everyone has one. I have been doing this thing for ten years and have built about 400 shafts this way.

When anyone else feels like they want to stand up and call me a Lier, uniformed crack pot or whatever, please remember that these sentiments are based on Zero experience with this method on their part.

That's the part that amazes me. If someone wanted to make a real argument with data to back them up all they would need to do is spend 10.00 on a pin to make a device and have at it making some saw dust. I know that there would be a lot of silence afterward.

JMO,

Rick

Rick, you need to do some reading about Geometric Tolerances. You obviously don't have a firm grasp of what they are all about. You had mentioned early in this thread that you are using a tapered joint pin that threaded tight when your two joint faces meet? I believe this is what allows you not to notice any error in the threaded insert and is your saving grace. So long as you have enough slop at the top of your pin then your insert can be somewhat crooked. As long as the bore of the insert which is closest to the the joint face is somewhat concentric then you wont notice the errors. You also use sanding mandrels so that helps too. But hey it's your cues so do it any way which makes you happy.

 

[RBC]

So just to be clear, when you turn the shaft with the pin in it. Are you chucking up the pin or are you driving off of a center in the back of the pin.
Inquiring minds want to know.

From what I understand, Steve, after the shaft reaches .910" diameter at the joint (which means it is equally over sized over the rest of the cue shaft) the pin is installed and trued to the shaft. From that point on, all taper passes are done with the pin in a chuck so the center line of the jointed shaft/pin assembly is straight and true to the center line of the turning machine. The tip end of the cue shaft is supported by the live center in the tail stock.

So, if the shaft does move any during the remaining taper cuts, and the movement is completely in the middle of the shaft so that the tip end does not move and stays aligned to the live center, then it will all cut straight and be inline with the joint pin.

I just don't see most shafts that move doing so in this manner. If the movement is along the shaft, as is what typically happens when wood moves, then the tip end will no longer be online with the live center. It would be very easy to just push it in to place so the taper cuts can be made, but doing so means the shaft is cut under stress and will simply move back to where it wants to be as soon the live center's support is removed.

Oh well. This has been fun, but I've got too much work to do. 400 shafts is quite a few, but we do much more than that in just a month. Don't forget, that all those shafts can be equipped to fit any one of 31 different joint and collar combinations. It's all in a days work!


Royce

 

[Dave38]

Hey Dave,

Re paragraph two if you can read and comprehend.

After doing so you may wish to amend your statement.

Part of the problem with forums is that many tend to scan and don't take the time to comprehend what some is saying. This results in a knee jerk reaction.

I am guilty of that at times and when I scan and knee jerk I always look like a horse's arse. Wouldn't you agree.

JMO,

Rick

PS: try storing your shafts within the pyramid tent for keeping shop razor blades sharp. Very few know how the power works for keeping shaft wood straight. It's an old Indian trick passed to them my ancient aliens. LOL. Chris Hightower is very wise and dares not include this is his book out of fear of the curse that my result from heap power medicine.

No personal offense meant in the following paragraphs.....
If you didn't habitually use $20 words from a $2 dictionary, and actually had an idea as to what those words actually meant....and used them correctly, people would spend more time reading your long winded posts that for the most part, is just you trying to say how smart you are over everyone else. You use words that sound smart to you, but you don't even bother to look them up first to make sure your using them correctly.

I have read a lot of your posts on the "JA" site where you have shown this behavior over and over and have been called out on it and you just keep on trucking on and use more gobbledegook to explain the first gobbledegook. You may make a great cue, but you seem to be over the top on your terminology, and your "supposed" methods. I play pool with quite a few engineer types, and have worked with a few also in my field, their brains are about 5 times larger than most people on the planet, and so far, none of them have ever come close to you on over stating their 'credentials', massive word misuse, typo's, and gobbledegook like you.

If you were to re-read what you have posted, If you're as accomplished as you have stated you are on the other site, you should realize that for the most part, most of what you post for explanations of your procedures, etc. doesn't make much sense in the real world. and as stated by others, goes against so many established machining principles, so either you have mastered the undo-ables, or you're full of backslapping B%^&S#@t
I don't care much either way how you 'build' your cues, but as this area of the forum is read by many newbies, and people actually trying to learn, you don't do much service by offering up info that for the most part is considered by experienced makers and machinists, information that isn't credible and can be very misleading, ....for lack of a better way to put it.... poppycock.
Enjoy the rest of the week and keep building your way...it seems to work for you....

dave

 

[scdiveteam]

No personal offense meant in the following paragraphs.....
If you didn't habitually use $20 words from a $2 dictionary, and actually had an idea as to what those words actually meant....and used them correctly, people would spend more time reading your long winded posts that for the most part, is just you trying to say how smart you are over everyone else. You use words that sound smart to you, but you don't even bother to look them up first to make sure your using them correctly.

I have read a lot of your posts on the "JA" site where you have shown this behavior over and over and have been called out on it and you just keep on trucking on and use more gobbledegook to explain the first gobbledegook. You may make a great cue, but you seem to be over the top on your terminology, and your "supposed" methods. I play pool with quite a few engineer types, and have worked with a few also in my field, their brains are about 5 times larger than most people on the planet, and so far, none of them have ever come close to you on over stating their 'credentials', massive word misuse, typo's, and gobbledegook like you.

If you were to re-read what you have posted, If you're as accomplished as you have stated you are on the other site, you should realize that for the most part, most of what you post for explanations of your procedures, etc. doesn't make much sense in the real world. and as stated by others, goes against so many established machining principles, so either you have mastered the undo-ables, or you're full of backslapping B%^&S#@t
I don't care much either way how you 'build' your cues, but as this area of the forum is read by many newbies, and people actually trying to learn, you don't do much service by offering up info that for the most part is considered by experienced makers and machinists, information that isn't credible and can be very misleading, ....for lack of a better way to put it.... poppycock.
Enjoy the rest of the week and keep building your way...it seems to work for you....

dave

So lets get it straight here Dave. You miss quote me and make a condescending statement, I respond and point out that you should re read paragraph two and stop scanning posts because you comprehension level is poor to say the least.

Then you wait a few days and jump in here as the protector of newbies and using the term like "machining practices" as it is a high authority holding you to some kind of high ground position. Not!

What I write and my usage of language is how I speak and express myself in a real world conversation. I don't use a dictionary and surly don't need any other word reference books to create language. Know why Dave? I did that stuff when I was young and forming my personality and language skills. So if you wish to mind read and express your feelings that I can not represent my self without help, that's fine. It is apparent through your words that you are projecting you own fears regarding your lack of comprehension skills. Me thinks.

My long winded posts are what they are. If they seem to challenge you too much my advise is to ignore them. What is funny to me are the people who point out spelling or grammatical errors on my part. This a freaking Internet form not a term paper. If you can get the meaning or intention of what I post because of these things or an unedited run on sentence, I would advise you to read slower, one word at a time. Bringing up spelling errors is a dodge tactic to shift the conversation to somehow point out I am not smart or am something stupid like that. It is pure obfuscation.

You mention the other site. Is that the site where you a have a booze bottle as your avatar. What kind of message are you projecting about your self? Maybe this is your secrete message to the world about what defines you as a person. How does that make you feel Dave when i point this out. That's what happens when someone else mind reads. I don't like to do that because I am a objectivist.

Excuse me If I offended you and got that wrong. I just was making a point about mind reading on a public forum.

Thanks for your advice just the same,

Rick

 

[Dave38]

A couple corrections Rick, you said:
"You mention the other site. Is that the site where you a have a booze bottle as your avatar. What kind of message are you projecting about your self? Maybe this is your secrete message to the world about what defines you as a person. How does that make you feel Dave when i point this out. That's what happens when someone else mind reads. I don't like to do that because I am a objectivist"

My username over there is the same as it is here, Dave38....and I don't have an avatar..your thinking of another Dave over there.
Also, I said machining principles, not practices, but it's not important. I stand by what I stated above, and I knew you would attack me back with childish insults to my intelligence, as I've seen you do that over there also. No problem, I only read your posts because I find them amusing to read. Some of your posts have some good advice, but you dress them with too much gobbledegook and then your message gets convoluted. Oh well, keep on keeping on...
Have a nice weekend.
Dave

 

[scdiveteam]

Sorry Dave,

Wrong Dave,

BTW, I am glad your amused.

Laughter is always the best medicine as they say.

Rick

 

[MVPCues]

No personal offense meant in the following paragraphs.....
If you didn't habitually use $20 words from a $2 dictionary, and actually had an idea as to what those words actually meant....and used them correctly, people would spend more time reading your long winded posts that for the most part, is just you trying to say how smart you are over everyone else. You use words that sound smart to you, but you don't even bother to look them up first to make sure your using them correctly.

I have read a lot of your posts on the "JA" site where you have shown this behavior over and over and have been called out on it and you just keep on trucking on and use more gobbledegook to explain the first gobbledegook. You may make a great cue, but you seem to be over the top on your terminology, and your "supposed" methods. I play pool with quite a few engineer types, and have worked with a few also in my field, their brains are about 5 times larger than most people on the planet, and so far, none of them have ever come close to you on over stating their 'credentials', massive word misuse, typo's, and gobbledegook like you.

If you were to re-read what you have posted, If you're as accomplished as you have stated you are on the other site, you should realize that for the most part, most of what you post for explanations of your procedures, etc. doesn't make much sense in the real world. and as stated by others, goes against so many established machining principles, so either you have mastered the undo-ables, or you're full of backslapping B%^&S#@t
I don't care much either way how you 'build' your cues, but as this area of the forum is read by many newbies, and people actually trying to learn, you don't do much service by offering up info that for the most part is considered by experienced makers and machinists, information that isn't credible and can be very misleading, ....for lack of a better way to put it.... poppycock.
Enjoy the rest of the week and keep building your way...it seems to work for you....

dave

Rep to you if I didn't have to spread it around because I'm glad to know how to spell the word gobbledegook. That has been on my mind.

 

[buddha162]

Reading Rick's posts...I think he missed the mark naming his cues.

"Obscurantist Cues" is more apt by far.

 

[Paul Dayton]

Rick, You've never been plain spoken. Perhaps if you'd beta tested your quasi-esoteric verbiage before you ran it up the proverbial pole, people wouldn't miss quote, ms. quote, or Mr. quote you . Sometimes all people want to know is the time, not how you make watches work perfectly in your world .

 

[JoeyInCali]

That's the part that amazes me. If someone wanted to make a real argument with data to back them up all they would need to do is spend 10.00 on a pin to make a device and have at it making some saw dust. I know that there would be a lot of silence afterward.

First off Rick, technically that is no longer turning between centers . The center hole of your pin is not the physical center of the dowel . NO MATTER HOW ACCURATE it is. It is still not physically the center hole of the dowel.
If the dowel moves at all near that insert, that insert will no longer be truly concentric to the center of the dowel .

Second of all, let's say that , that system actually works. There is absolutely NO VALUE to it for us to try. NONE. Why would I spend time drilling and tapping a dowel that might just be rejected later on ? Please, don't convince me you have a 2% reject ratio. Actually even worse, is spending time making and installing inserts on those dowels way early in the fight .
WHAT FOR ?
I can easily install an insert and thread it when the shaft is at final sanding size.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Rick, You've never been plain spoken. Perhaps if you'd beta tested your quasi-esoteric verbiage before you ran it up the proverbial pole, people wouldn't miss quote, ms. quote, or Mr. quote you . Sometimes all people want to know is the time, not how you make watches work perfectly in your world .

He really meant misquote. A word often misspelled.

Miss Quote was a contestant to a beauty pageant, I think. :grin:

 

[whammo57]

So..... let me recap.......... a man that has a large vocabulary shares his procedure for turning shafts that uses something of his own design to insure a straight and true piece.

The people here pick it apart and ridicule him because they have preconceived notions that it will not work. They state their opinions based on their suppositions and not any real experience with this method.


This is why I don't post on this forum very often...............


Kim

 

[JoeyInCali]

So..... let me recap.......... a man that has a large vocabulary shares his procedure for turning shafts that uses something of his own design to insure a straight and true piece.

The people here pick it apart and ridicule him because they have preconceived notions that it will not work. They state their opinions based on their suppositions and not any real experience with this method.


This is why I don't post on this forum very often...............


Kim

Actually, I've tried it .
I have two brass radial pins I parted and drilled a hole on the side of the barrel and center hole.
It presented two immediate problems .
First, the dead center spur could not grab the brass screw. The barrel is only .372.
Second, the threads become really tight sometimes when humidity goes up.
I do not use inserts on radial screws.


I have shafts from my late mentor that have inserts with .305 bored hole .
He used a .305" driver for it . No need for a spur. After really examining it and thinking it over , it was a waste of time . Not all shafts made it to the final cut.

And I did not make fun of his method. I think.

 

[DaveK]

You mention the other site. Is that the site where you a have a booze bottle as your avatar. What kind of message are you projecting about your self? Maybe this is your secrete message to the world about what defines you as a person. How does that make you feel Dave when i point this out. That's what happens when someone else mind reads. I don't like to do that because I am a objectivist.

It makes me think WTF is he (you Rick) babbling on about now.

Dave, the one with the booze bottle as his avatar, one who :lol: at Rick and his misuse of words (see "secrete" above) and engineering terms like interference fit and his inability to tell Daves apart :lol:

 

[RBC]

So..... let me recap.......... a man that has a large vocabulary shares his procedure for turning shafts that uses something of his own design to insure a straight and true piece.

The people here pick it apart and ridicule him because they have preconceived notions that it will not work. They state their opinions based on their suppositions and not any real experience with this method.


This is why I don't post on this forum very often...............


Kim

Kim

If you think that none of us have put inserts into shafts too early in the process, you're mistaken. I think it was probably 20 years ago that I learned not to install the joint work into the shaft until all the tapering was done. It was pretty obvious when I was in my twenties, even with little mechanical machining experience. I should add early twenties!

Anyone, who thinks logically can take a good hard look at the questions that have been asked and yet still go unanswered, and they will know that this doesn't pass the smell test.

Either something is being done that has not been mentioned or explained, or the results are not what has been portrayed. Or maybe the laws of physics just don't apply in one particular shop. (it's not mine, by the way)

Logic would tell you that because the same questions,which have been asked on many occasions yet still go unanswered, are being purposefully avoided that we don't have the entire true story.

I would love to see the whole story, even if it proves me wrong. Unfortunately, my experiences and background tell me that's doubtful. All the misdirection and avoidance tend to lend credence to that assessment. Either way, I'd like to see the missing link.


Royce