Joss West Repair...

jwe711

The Great Cue Masters...!
Silver Member
I've got a Joss West with a solid Ivory joint...

The ivory joint has broken...and it needs to be replaced...in addition, it has the JW radial pin, so, I'm wanting to have the threads changed to a 5/16-14 on the butt and shafts...so that it's interchangeable to other shafts...

Who is a qualified repairman to provide the repair without decreasing the value of the cue...

Thanks in advance for any advise...
 
I've got a Joss West with a solid Ivory joint...

The ivory joint has broken...and it needs to be replaced...in addition, it has the JW radial pin, so, I'm wanting to have the threads changed to a 5/16-14 on the butt and shafts...so that it's interchangeable to other shafts...

Who is a qualified repairman to provide the repair without decreasing the value of the cue...

Thanks in advance for any advise...

im curious to read the replies you get
i would think since the joint is not original and the shafts will be altered the value of the cue will be decreased no matter who does the repair
jmho
icbw
 
Ryan Theewen (ratcues) at Muellers

or

Scot Sherbine at Proficient

Scott
 
im curious to read the replies you get
i would think since the joint is not original and the shafts will be altered the value of the cue will be decreased no matter who does the repair
jmho
icbw

I'm with bbb on this one. I don't think it matters WHO does the repair, it's going to decrease the value of the cue.

Now.... with that being said, if you still wanted to proceed with the repairs/changes, I would highly recommend Ryan Theewan with RAT cues and Meullers. My other choice would be Proficient Billiards.
 
Not that it matters, but I would have the ivory joint fixed and leave the screw as-is.

Scott
 
Repair

I've got a Joss West with a solid Ivory joint...

The ivory joint has broken...and it needs to be replaced...in addition, it has the JW radial pin, so, I'm wanting to have the threads changed to a 5/16-14 on the butt and shafts...so that it's interchangeable to other shafts...

Who is a qualified repairman to provide the repair without decreasing the value of the cue...

Thanks in advance for any advise...



Reminds me of the guy who won a gold metal at the Olympics, liked it so much and wanted to preserve it so he had it "bronzed"..........

My recommendation is to have a qualified person (your choice, there are many) replace the ivory joint, but keep the radial pin, that is how it came originally.

Good luck with repair! It should go easily.

Will Prout
 
Any time to alter the original cue, if that cue is collectible, it doesn't matter if Barry Szamboti did the alteration........your cue will drop in value. It's like removing the patina on an antique.........the value of the item plummets when you change it.

Having said that, you're screwed on the value not dropping when you repair the cue which obviously has to be done if you intend to play with the cue. Otherwise, you can sell the cue as is and reap the best price from someone looking for a Bill Stroud player.......even if the cue was a level 5 cue.........your cue is basically a player now instead of a highly collectible Bill Stroud cue.

But keep in mind that repairing the joint is not going to reduce the value nearly as much as changing the joint. thread. You do that and your cue value will drop like an escalator........don't do it. Repair the cue joint only and just enjoy playing with your cue. If you sell it after you only repair the joint, and it was done by a big name cue-maker like James White or another cue-maker with an equivalent great reputation, your cue value will nonetheless still drop but not as much. Change the pin and it doesn't matter who does the repair.....your cue value will drop enormously......more than you'd imagine.

If it were my cue, I'd repair the cue, keep the original pin as is and just enjoy playing with a Josswest cue or else, I'd try selling the cue as is to a collector of Bill Stroud cues. At least now you know for certain that your cue has lost significant value because of its damaged ivory joint regardless of whatever you decide to do. I know it's not the news you want to hear but hard core facts are hard to ignore.......change the original design and you're going to take a hit when you sell the cue. Keep in mind that for collectible cue value determination, even replacement shafts made by another esteemed cue-maker would still result in your cue losing value if it also doesn't have two original, straight playable shafts.

If you've got any doubts. contact Bill Grassley at Cornerstone cues who has several Stroud cues and in fact, is still hopefully browsing for a Richard Black or Bill Stroud cue for me in the weight range I want. In any event, he's the most knowledgeable cue dealer I can suggest to contact for advice.
 
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Any time to alter the original cue, if that cue is collectible, it doesn't matter if Barry Szamboti did the alteration........your cue will drop in value. It's like removing the patina on an antique.........the value of the item plummets when you change it.

Having said that, you're screwed on the value not dropping when you repair the cue which obviously has to be done if you intend to play with the cue. Otherwise, you can sell the cue as is and reap the best price from someone looking for a Bill Stroud player.......even if the cue was a level 5 cue.........your cue is basically a player now instead of a highly collectible Bill Stroud cue.

But keep in mind that repairing the joint is not going to reduce the value nearly as much as changing the joint. thread. You do that and your cue value will drop like an escalator........don't do it. Repair the cue joint only and just enjoy playing with your cue. If you sell it after you only repair the joint, and it was done by a big name cue-maker like James White or another cue-maker with an equivalent great reputation, your cue value will nonetheless still drop but not as much. Change the pin and it doesn't matter who does the repair.....your cue value will drop enormously......more than you'd imagine.

If it were my cue, I'd repair the cue, keep the original pin as is and just enjoy playing with a Josswest cue or else, I'd try selling the cue as is to a collector of Bill Stroud cues. At least now you know for certain that your cue has lost significant value because of its damaged ivory joint regardless of whatever you decide to do. I know it's not the news you want to hear but hard core facts are hard to ignore.......change the original design and you're going to take a hit when you sell the cue. Keep in mind that for collectible cue value determination, even replacement shafts made by another esteemed cue-maker would still result in your cue losing value if it also doesn't have two original, straight playable shafts.

If you've got any doubts. contact Bill Grassley at Cornerstone cues who has several Stroud cues and in fact, is still hopefully browsing for a Richard Black or Bill Stroud cue for me in the weight range I want. In any event, he's the most knowledgeable cue dealer I can suggest to contact for advice.

Well that seems a little dramatic and I am not sure I agree, if the repair is done correctly...99.99% wont be able to tell.

An ugly secret that nobody talks about and was very common was to buy a cue, and have some other cue maker add inlays to the cue. That included changing joints to ivory. Lets just say this happened to ALOT of cues, and a lot of cues made by the "masters".

I do agree that you should fix cue, and if you would prefer a different pin, then sell cue and buy a cue with that pin.


Ken
 
Andy Gilbert.

He has done repair work for me and it was flawless.

Great suggestion, Andy does virtually all of my repair work like this and has a Ph.D. in elite cue repair. :)

Making this fix will only increase the value of this JW cue. You can't go back in time to before the joint was cracked. It now has a structural issue that needs to be addressed and Bill isn't doing any more work from what I understand. I would not change the pin, however, unless you plan on keeping the cue. Those kind of modifications (away from the original makers' design) are much more frowned on in the market when it comes to resale value. A change like that would need to be disclosed for obvious reasons.
 
Ken.....you're probably right about not being able to tell if a good cue-maker did the repair...........but do you disagree with the fact that the cue value would suffer?

Your post infers that the cue owner could sell the cue without revealing that the cue is not original and that the ivory joint had to be replaced by cue-maker X. Sure, the seller could get away with fraud and sell the cue as original. I don't think you were implying that and merely that the repair isn't going to be obvious or conspicuous in any way.

I strongly disagree that having Gilbert or any other cue-maker repair the cue the joint would increase the cue's value over what it would be if the joint was never damaged, i.e., still original condition. However, I will concede that having Andy Gilbert, or one of his cue-making peers, replace the joint will increase the value of this fellow's cue but let's get this right.........the value would increase over what the cue is worth "as is" in its broken, unplayable condition. The cue would not appreciate in value over what it would be worth in original condition as made by Bill Stroud.

Cue Addicts professionally buys and sells cues and so I'd normally defer to his opinion on matters involving pool cue values. But not on this point and I'm telling you that the cue owner is screwed on ever getting the full value for his Bill Stroud cue because of its present damage or even any future repair by another cue-maker. The only way he gets on top of this is to repair the joint and commit fraud by omitting material facts pertinent to the conditions of the sale that the buyer is otherwise legally entitled to have prior to execution of the cue purchase. If anyone offers this Bill Stroud cue for sale, or heaven forbid completes the sale, without revealing the ivory joint repair history...........doesn't matter whether the seller is individual, collector or cue dealer........anyone that would do something like that is a outright thief and cannot be trusted. After all, when a person lies and steals once, the likelihood is they'll do it again, especially when profit motives are involved, i.e., greed.

And you just don't mention or reveal only the most obvious alterations of a cue , like changing its pin which your cue's prospective buyer might have been possibly ignorant about. Nope, you pull back the curtains and tell the truth about the cue and not mislead any buyer. It comes down to this.....a seller is either truthful, honest and reveals everything material and pertinent to the prospective cue buyer or else you're just a con man and outright thief. You see you don't get to pick and choose what might be, could be, or is material or significant to the cue buyer and withholding information is stealing so you can get a better price. It's this simple.......dishonesty can not be rationalized or justified.......Nuf Sed!

The cue owner is getting lots of opinions but he had better take time to find out for himself before doing anything at all. All the opinions and advice he's receiving is free advice and it's widely known that free advice is only worth how much you paid to get it............."Nothing".
 
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Ken.....you're probably right about not being able to tell if a good cue-maker did the repair...........but do you disagree with the fact that the cue value would suffer?

Your post infers that the cue owner could sell the cue without revealing that the cue is not original and that the ivory joint had to be replaced by cue-maker X. Sure, the seller could get away with fraud and sell the cue as original. I don't think you were implying that and merely that the repair isn't going to be obvious or conspicuous in any way.

I strongly disagree that having Gilbert or any other cue-maker repair the cue the joint would increase the cue's value over what it would be if the joint was never damaged, i.e., still original condition. However, I will concede that having Andy Gilbert, or one of his cue-making peers, replace the joint will increase the value of this fellow's cue but let's get this right.........the value would increase over what the cue is worth "as is" in its broken, unplayable condition. The cue would not appreciate in value over what it would be worth in original condition as made by Bill Stroud.

Cue Addicts professionally buys and sells cues and so I'd normally defer to his opinion on matters involving pool cue values. But not on this point and I'm telling you that the cue owner is screwed on ever getting the full value for his Bill Stroud cue because of its present damage or even any future repair by another cue-maker. The only way he gets on top of this is to repair the joint and commit fraud by omitting material facts pertinent to the conditions of the sale that the buyer is otherwise legally entitled to have prior to execution of the cue purchase. If anyone offers this Bill Stroud cue for sale, or heaven forbid completes the sale, without revealing the ivory joint repair history...........doesn't matter whether the seller is individual, collector or cue dealer........anyone that would do something like that is a outright thief and cannot be trusted. After all, when a person lies and steals once, the likelihood is they'll do it again, especially when profit motives are involved, i.e., greed.

And you just don't mention or reveal only the most obvious alterations of a cue , like changing its pin which your cue's prospective buyer might have been possibly ignorant about. Nope, you pull back the curtains and tell the truth about the cue and not mislead any buyer. It comes down to this.....a seller is either truthful, honest and reveals everything material and pertinent to the prospective cue buyer or else you're just a con man and outright thief. You see you don't get to pick and choose what might be, could be, or is material or significant to the cue buyer and withholding information is stealing so you can get a better price. It's this simple.......dishonesty can not be rationalized or justified.......Nuf Sed!

The cue owner is getting lots of opinions but he had better take time to find out for himself before doing anything at all. All the opinions and advice he's receiving is free advice and it's widely known that free advice is only worth how much you paid to get it............."Nothing".

Would I tell if I had the broken joint replaced to the original? Probably not. Would I say something if I changed it from a radial to different pin type? Probably.

This happens all the time. I know that certain cue dealers have a great relationship with certain cue makers. Because of this, they get better pricing and better (faster) service.

My friend in Louisville, Brian Roberts, uses Phillippe to do a lot of repairs and refinishing.

Cue Addicts is a big dealer of Andy's cues, and they use him a lot.

That being said, if you are going to have anything done on Szamboti, Barry is the ONLY person to use.

The same pretty much goes with Balabuskas going to Pete.

Bill is not available, and based on that, Andy is a fine choice, but several other cuemakers would be as well.

So I don't agree that it is dishonest.

Best of rolls,

Ken Strain
 
While its true that a cue is only original once, the deal about refinishes or rebuilds always hurting the value is bunk. You will see time and time again, dealers sending original patina Guses to Barry and Georges to Tasc for reworks and there is only one reason for this, $$. Gleaming big cues bring the money.

Its a fun debate, but really not relevant to this thread, after all the cue has a cracked joint and has to be repaired. I agree the pin should be kept original for value down the road, but who best to work on a JW is interesting.

Georges go to Tasc and when Pete is gone, Pete Jr will be there so that line is stable.

Guses and Barrys go to Barry and when Barry is done, Jimmy will presumably step in.

Tads go to Fred.

Searing is young.

Who is the successor to Stroud? I don't think you gain any cache by sending a JW to Joss, maybe every refinish or rebuild now on a JW will diminish the value.

Who will do Ginas when Ernie is done? I wold suggest if you have an old Gina that needs work you make some plans about getting that cue in right soon.

I think you have to disclose any repair/refinish you know about. I think a Barry repair or refinish on a Gus, doesn't hurt the cue's value, I think a repair or refinish by any other maker does, regardless of the quality of the work.

But what do I know?

Kevin
 
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I just find it interesting how elastic the truth is for some folks. I suppose one could argue...."Well, the buyer never asked me if the cue was all original, or was it was ever repaired." So therefore, the seller would argue that they never lied, misled or deceived the buyer in any way and had the buyer asked, I'm sure they would have admitted to the repair and told the buyer.

And of course, the seller would have to also believe that the buyer upon learning the cue they just completed negotiating a best price for did not deserve to be changed because of the ivory joint being replaced by a different cue-maker. I'm sure that would be the outcome and the buyer wouldn't think for a minute they were overpaying for the cue or that they'd ever want to pay less or perhaps even cancel the sale. Yeah, that would never take place in a million years and that's why it's not worth mentioning the ivory joint replacement by cue-maker X.

Thank goodness I'm keeping notes on some of the posters that believe there's nothing wrong with replacing the cue joint and never mentioning it. The only thing I can conclude is before ever buying a cue from them, or anyone posting agreement, is make sure to ask ever imaginable question about any cue you'd buy from someone like that and also keep in mind some might not admit the joint replacement despite being questioned.

I'm black & white on the truth about pool cues; as far as I'm concerned, there are no gray areas. For example, are the shafts original & straight? Either the cue-maker made the shafts when he made the cue or he didn't. Either the shafts are straight or the shafts are not straight. Telling the buyer the shafts are straight and any taper lift or roll is barely discernible is not answering the question.......the shafts aren't straight. Sellers need to just be truthful and negotiate the best price for selling their cue but to think that one should approach a cue seller like a hostile witness on the stand, that's depressing to think about. But it sounds like the buyer should approach it that way since it's only in their best interest. So for the buyer, it becomes a situation akin to "caveat emptor"............have I asked about this or that because if I don't, the seller hasn't any responsibility to tell me something I might want to know about the cue.

A cue butt made by Bill Stroud with shafts made by another cue-maker isn't as valuable as the same cue with original shafts. Collectible pool cues aren't like quilts and are more like paintings and guns. Repair a highly collectible artifact like a painting, or gun, through a modern day gunsmith, or painter, changing or repairing even small brass or a touch-up of the canvas, and you just lost value........there is no substitute for original when the cue-maker is retired or deceased. So the best approach is ask a cue seller detailed questions about their cue and hope you don't deal with a seller that believes truth or honesty is elastic when it suits their selfish needs, i.e., best cue price.
 
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im curious to read the replies you get
i would think since the joint is not original and the shafts will be altered the value of the cue will be decreased no matter who does the repair
jmho
icbw

I have not read the other replies but I hope most agree with you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
Earlier I said you should change the joint with a qualified cue repair expert, and recommended you keep the radial pin, not change to a 5/16 x14 pin.

Just to clarify a bit, one thing about Josswests that is true of many top cuemakers is that as the years of Stroud's work evolved, his designs changed (duh!). It is relatively easy to pick out a 1970's cue from an early 1980's cue, from an early 1990's, from an early 2000's cue design.

His pin preference changed as well. You could change your pin to a 5/16 x 14 and then the pin may not be in concert with the design, which "went" with a radial pin. Not a problem with the ivory joint.

Kinda like a 350c.i. Engine in a 1967 Corvette.

Clear as mud, but some truth in there somewhere.

Will Prout
 
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I think Andy Gilbert and Rick at Phillippi cues are both fantastic suggestions. Both do outstanding repair work.

Good luck,
JK
 
older brother cue of yours was fixed

i have an early joss cue with ivory joint that was cracked due to extreme temperature change-from 18 degrees to 70 degrees. crack! sent it to ryan at muellers, for replaced joint and a new matching shaft and it is really good to go. excellent job from ryan.
 
Bava, i think we are saying basically the same thing on most points here, but it's interesting to see how passionate you are on this. :) Of course any non-orig modification that someone has done on a cue should be disclosed to a prospective buyer. That's a given imo. Just wished all sellers felt this way.

Typing on a cell phone sucks...lol...you can never seem to get all your thoughts in, like if you had a keyboard.

Happy Friday, folks. :)
 
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