Just for US players

[Johnnyt]

I’m probably going to catch a lot of flack about this…but here goes. I think it might be time to just have pro tournaments in the USA for American players only, both women and men’s.

American players can’t go over to their countries and play for many reasons. They aren’t invited to a lot of them, our government doesn’t help our players with travel money and lodging, and the US players for the most part have poor corporate sponsorship, to name a few hurdles stopping them from competing in other countries.

On the other hand most other countries pay their top player for travel and lodging, food, and in some cases a salary to represent their country. It’s an unfair advantage. If the little tournament money that’s here in the US stayed with the US players and not half or more won and taken back home by foreigners, at least the top pros here would have a chance at making some kind of living.

It has gotten so out of hand both in women and men’s pro billiards in recent times that it’s a joke. The players that come over here and take our purses don’t have one-tenth the pressure that most American pros are under to win (eat, pay rent, live). You have players coming over with coaches and translators, and all paid for by their governments and/or big sponsors. It’s just not a level playing field here anymore.

As long as the purses here continue to be so low and sponsorship is almost impossible to get…I say tournaments in the USA should be for US players only. Johnnyt

 

[ShootingArts]

I agree, halfway

Johnny I see nothing wrong with some events or even a couple of tours for US players only. However I don't want to see the true open events go away. To be the best you have to beat the best. That means going find them or getting them over here. Giving my druthers, when I am the underdog I want homefield advantage.

Hu

I’m probably going to catch a lot of flack about this…but here goes. I think it might be time to just have pro tournaments in the USA for American players only, both women and men’s.

American players can’t go over to their countries and play for many reasons. They aren’t invited to a lot of them, our government doesn’t help our players with travel money and lodging, and the US players for the most part have poor corporate sponsorship, to name a few hurdles stopping them from competing in other countries.

On the other hand most other countries pay their top player for travel and lodging, food, and in some cases a salary to represent their country. It’s an unfair advantage. If the little tournament money that’s here in the US stayed with the US players and not half or more won and taken back home by foreigners, at least the top pros here would have a chance at making some kind of living.

It has gotten so out of hand both in women and men’s pro billiards in recent times that it’s a joke. The players that come over here and take our purses don’t have one-tenth the pressure that most American pros are under to win (eat, pay rent, live). You have players coming over with coaches and translators, and all paid for by their governments and/or big sponsors. It’s just not a level playing field here anymore.

As long as the purses here continue to be so low and sponsorship is almost impossible to get…I say tournaments in the USA should be for US players only. Johnnyt

 

[Blackjack]

I’m probably going to catch a lot of flack about this…but here goes. I think it might be time to just have pro tournaments in the USA for American players only, both women and men’s.

American players can’t go over to their countries and play for many reasons. They aren’t invited to a lot of them, our government doesn’t help our players with travel money and lodging, and the US players for the most part have poor corporate sponsorship, to name a few hurdles stopping them from competing in other countries.

On the other hand most other countries pay their top player for travel and lodging, food, and in some cases a salary to represent their country. It’s an unfair advantage. If the little tournament money that’s here in the US stayed with the US players and not half or more won and taken back home by foreigners, at least the top pros here would have a chance at making some kind of living.

It has gotten so out of hand both in women and men’s pro billiards in recent times that it’s a joke. The players that come over here and take our purses don’t have one-tenth the pressure that most American pros are under to win (eat, pay rent, live). You have players coming over with coaches and translators, and all paid for by their governments and/or big sponsors. It’s just not a level playing field here anymore.

As long as the purses here continue to be so low and sponsorship is almost impossible to get…I say tournaments in the USA should be for US players only. Johnnyt

I don't like the idea at all.

It is an honor to have the opportunity to compete with the great players from all over the world, it is an honor to be able to watch them play. The probelms with sponsorship and prize money won't change unless the attitudes change on both sides of that argument (players & the industry). These problems existed 25 years ago when the pro tour was predominantly
"American". The universal/Worldwide appeal of pool is evident in the games of the European & Filippino superstars that we have today. The game flourishes in those parts of the world. In the U.S. we have earned our reputation and have chosen not to do much about it.

Pool needs to figure out where its going before they go in any direction. Speeding away in no particular direction without a clear destination is what killed the IPT quicker than their money issues. Poker, Wrestling, MMA, Beach Volleyball, Bowling, have all been able to market themselves into the mainstream, so can we. We just need the right people involved working towards a common goal. That is easier said than done.

 

[Johnnyt]

I agree with you ShootingArts, but I'm only thinking of our players...whats left of them. A few more years of this and you won't see many US players competing and you damn well won't see many young men or women looking to get good enough to make poverty level wages. Johnnyt

 

[ShootingArts]

you are right about the situation

I agree with you ShootingArts, but I'm only thinking of our players...whats left of them. A few more years of this and you won't see many US players competing and you damn well won't see many young men or women looking to get good enough to make poverty level wages. Johnnyt

Johnny,

You are absolutely right that things can't go on like this. Almost thirty-five years ago I had my family's support if I wanted to turn pro, actually their encouragement. I explained the realities of pro pool at the time and exactly what I would have to do to survive. They weren't nearly as encouraging. Unfortunately the deal isn't much different today. I do think that a decent player could cherry pick tournaments and eke out a thin living but it surely wouldn't be a rewarding life. Playing the big money events usually comes down to the same thing, Dolly Parton purses. With everything on top, finish out of the top three or four and life isn't good. Figure 64 pro's chasing those top spots and the odds aren't too good. Only one in fifteen can cash a worthwhile amount. Worst yet, many tournaments are structured where luck is a fairly large factor so even if you are the best you still have to consider luck, good and bad, and realize that you will lose a certain amount of matches regardless of how well you can play. The odds get uglier all the time.

The USA needs great players that can compete with anyone and at this point that does probably mean great young players. Many other places have various programs and incentives to create great players. The USA has just the opposite. Do you have a son or daughter with great eye/hand coordination and a mind that can calculate speeds and angles in an instant? Will you encourage them to play pool, or golf, tennis, baseball, or one of the other sports that are quite lucrative for hundreds of pro's? There are so many better roads to success that it is amazing that anyone attempts to become a pro pool player these days.

I don't think 100% protectionism is the answer but I'll be the first to admit that I don't have an answer either.

Hu

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

um.. no

so we should have our own olympics too because we can't beat
the other countries?

this post is depressing.

sorry jt

something needs done but I completely disagree with this approach.

 

[cueball1950]

I don't like the idea at all.

It is an honor to have the opportunity to compete with the great players from all over the world, it is an honor to be able to watch them play. The probelms with sponsorship and prize money won't change unless the attitudes change on both sides of that argument (players & the industry). These problems existed 25 years ago when the pro tour was predominantly
"American". The universal/Worldwide appeal of pool is evident in the games of the European & Filippino superstars that we have today. The game flourishes in those parts of the world. In the U.S. we have earned our reputation and have chosen not to do much about it.

Pool needs to figure out where its going before they go in any direction. Speeding away in no particular direction without a clear destination is what killed the IPT quicker than their money issues. Poker, Wrestling, MMA, Beach Volleyball, Bowling, have all been able to market themselves into the mainstream, so can we. We just need the right people involved working towards a common goal. That is easier said than done.

Dave.....while i agree with what you have posted totally, i can see no reason for having 1 yearly tournament and calling it the U.S. National Championships. I believe other countries have them and they are limited to just the residents from those countries. But not an American only tour..Keep the tours "OPEN" to all players....................mike

 

[JAM]

I’m probably going to catch a lot of flack about this…but here goes. I think it might be time to just have pro tournaments in the USA for American players only, both women and men’s.

American players can’t go over to their countries and play for many reasons. They aren’t invited to a lot of them, our government doesn’t help our players with travel money and lodging, and the US players for the most part have poor corporate sponsorship, to name a few hurdles stopping them from competing in other countries.

On the other hand most other countries pay their top player for travel and lodging, food, and in some cases a salary to represent their country. It’s an unfair advantage. If the little tournament money that’s here in the US stayed with the US players and not half or more won and taken back home by foreigners, at least the top pros here would have a chance at making some kind of living.

It has gotten so out of hand both in women and men’s pro billiards in recent times that it’s a joke. The players that come over here and take our purses don’t have one-tenth the pressure that most American pros are under to win (eat, pay rent, live). You have players coming over with coaches and translators, and all paid for by their governments and/or big sponsors. It’s just not a level playing field here anymore.

As long as the purses here continue to be so low and sponsorship is almost impossible to get…I say tournaments in the USA should be for US players only. Johnnyt

Caution, Johnnyt, as you just may be labeled a "racist," as I have.

Personally, I would like to see an All-American Open limited to U.S. citizens.

JAM

 

[Jimmy M.]

It's hard to argue against the fact that American players can't play in *some* overseas events. However, I'm not so sure about punishing the international players because the promoters in their respective countries have their heads up their asses.

Perhaps a couple US-residents-only tournaments per year could be a good thing though; sort of a payback to the American players who kind of get the short end of the stick in the international pool scene.



Man ... I just read my post and it sounds like I'm riding this fence pretty hard! I guess I just don't have a real suggestion of my own to make here so I'm kind of wishy-washy on the whole subject. I feel like a certain ex-presidential candidate!

 

[Johnnyt]

I don’t want to punish non-Americans. I just want an even playing field for our guys and gals. I like to watch the best of other countries compete over here too, but right now the money is the problem for the US players and that will double what’s going to them now. Johnnyt

 

[Johnnyt]

Just doing a quick look-up of money that went out of the county in a year is about $5,000,000. I didn't count any IPT money either. If I spent a few hours looking more up I can see where it probably would be more like seven or eight million going out. Even at $5,000,000...thats 50 $100,000 tournaments we could have here... or break it up more to 200 $25,000 tournaments. You can't tell me that wouldn't help the US players earn more of a livelyhood. Johnnyt

 

[juegabillar]

Carefull.....

I’m probably going to catch a lot of flack about this…but here goes. I think it might be time to just have pro tournaments in the USA for American players only, both women and men’s.

Johnnyt

Carefull by what you mean as "American Players". You have to bear in mind that many "Americans" were not born in America. They have become "U.S. Citizens" or "U.S. Residents" by whatever legal means; therefore, many of what we view as non-americans, or international players, would actually be entitled to play as "U.S. Citizens or Residents."

Come on people, let's stop this hypocritical view of what is America or American. Why leave out of those great "American Players" we have right now. Why can't we view them as "true Americans" instead of trying to marginize or segregate people? The U.S. of A was built on the backs of "inmigrants". Why do we want to go back to the "Stone Age"?

 

[arsenius]

JohnnyT,
I was thinking about something like this recently, and I think it is potentially a great idea. I don't care about the pressure of players from other countries. What I do care about is getting America represented in other countries. What got me to thinking about this was the Pro organization here in South Korea. One of my friends is the #2 English Billiards player here, and he was chosen to go to compete in Qatar recently by the KBF (Korean Billiards Federation). They paid his airfare and hotel so that he could go.

What I would like to see is not just a good professional pool organization (which would be a blessing), but one that was good for Americans. Then you could have big American only tournaments. These tournaments could be used to raise money and choose players for sponsorship in the major open tournaments WORLDWIDE.

That would mean that at leastthe top one or two American players would ALWAYS be at the big tournaments. The other benefit is that such American only tournaments would slightly limit the field. This might encourage upper level, short-stop like players to compete, knowing they won't be facing Efren or Mika, providing a stepping stone to bigger things.

 

[arsenius]

I just re-read my post. I wanted to make it clear that I don't want an international organization that would favor Americans. I would like there to be a good international men's tour, but also would like to have some way to encourage American players at the same time.

 

[Snapshot9]

We have

got to stop being the 'everything' country, in many areas of our government and yes, even in Billiards. It is a matter of priorities that we should consider;
You don't go help strangers in other countries if it HURTS your own family, do you? Why, because your family comes before helping strangers.

If you don't have your priorities right, then you will end up losing what you overlooked or didn't have enough consideration for. For example, our Industrial and Technical National Engine is being decreased daily because
of outsourcing, taking money out of our country. Pretty soon, we will cease to be a leader in many fields, and our biggest competition will be those countries we outsourced to.

Same applies to Billiards on a different level. I like International competition, but I also believe we need some opportunities and protection for our U.S. players. 2-4 Tournaments a year strictly for U.S. players with good payouts is not unreasonable, IMHO.

(I made more comments on the Strickland/Schmidt thread).

 

[Scaramouche]

Caution, Johnnyt, as you just may be labeled a "racist," as I have.

Personally, I would like to see an All-American Open limited to U.S. citizens.

JAM

Don't mean to quibble
But it seems to me that there are three types of tournaments:

Open - to all
Closed - restricted
Invitational - arbitrary

Therefore, All-American Open limited to U.S. citizens is a contradition in terms

 

[supergreenman]

This seems to be the typical response to any field where the US can't compete. As much as some people like to tout Americas "free market" economy they are often the first to complain loudly and ask for tarrifs when us companys can't compete.

This list includes:
farmers
auto makers
soft wood lumber producers
breweries
and many more...

And now you'd like to add Pool players to the list. Typical.

free trade is great for the US (except when they can't compete)

 

[ShootingArts]

cherry picking

Johnny,

I haven't researched your numbers, I am going to simply accept them as valid as I have absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. That pretty much proves my point about cherry picking except in this case it is the foreign players who are coming in and grabbing the better paying events and although most will play smaller events while they are here many head to other big events worldwide, many of which are restricted or invitational that keep most or all of the US players out.

Even your five million number would provide $100,000 a year gross to the top fifty men and women. Just at a quick guess that would allow them to net $30,000 to $50,000 a year depending on how they lived on the road and how they traveled.

I like watching the best in the world play and I don't care if they are white, black, yellow, or red, the only four races I recognize. Having said that, I think we need a place for US players to develop and earn a living while doing so. Two USA only tournament trails, one for the men and one for women, seems to make sense. Schedule the events so that the members were free to tackle big events anywhere they chose also, and with no penalties for playing outside these tours. Note that naturalized US citizens would be as welcome as native born citizens and I most particularly don't care what race the members of these tours are.

Your numbers have convinced me that many of our events, probably most, in the US need to be for US citizens only at this time. Regardless of what we feel should be in a perfect world, the realities of today are that we are falling behind in the pool world and I strongly believe it is because of lack of opportunity for US players on a comparative basis.

I honestly believe that US competitors, US industry, and US business can compete and succeed in competition with anyone anywhere in the world on a level playing field. The catch is that the playing fields are often far from level and we must level them all somewhat, regardless of outcry. Our government doesn't support our athletes in any sport that I know of although that has been common practice seemingly forever for many countries. A US citizen only tour would basically serve the same purpose, providing an income from the sport so that our best could feel some confidence that they can pay bills year around.

Hu

 

[frankwhite]

Caution, Johnnyt, as you just may be labeled a "racist," as I have.

Personally, I would like to see an All-American Open limited to U.S. citizens.

JAM

JohnnyT, you have hit the nail right on the head my brother. I agree w/ you 100%. Everything you mentioned is the God honest truth.

That is why I have to work for a living now a days. Every tourny I participated in cost me money, I was a loser before I jumped on the plane. Ofcourse unless you come in the top three. And if you can fade the top three spots against the top ranked monsters, well....that is another story...

 

[SpiderWebComm]

If tournaments were limited to US players only, it would damage the integrity of the sport, in general..... would prob set pool back another 20 years. It's depressing that Americans don't win more, but limiting fields based on nationalities would only make things worse, not better. Want to make things better in America? Americans need to win more....period.

That's like saying the PGA Tour should only allow Americans on the tour - and to keep the rest of the world on the European tour (when Faldo was winning everything). Since the early '90s more and more Europeans moved to the U.S. to compete exclusively on the PGA Tour. Do they win? Yes. Do they always win? No. Who's the best? Tiger - an American. If Vijay, for example, started to win everything for years to come - the PGA Tour would still continue to grow and maintain its popularity.

It's a very protectionist and damaging thought when it comes to a "professional" sport. While you're at it, keep Federer and Nadal outside of the US Open Tennis and other US events since they win everything and they're not American.

Just because Americans are not the best doesn't mean you change the rules to help them win. Encourage them to get better. It's the only way to further the sport we love.... in my opinion.

Filipinos, Chinese, Taiwanese and Germans are not "born" better at pool than Americans so there's no unfair advantage.