Layered Tips, defective by design?

3andstop

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
I don't know, but it's something I've pondered and thought I'd post a thread so others might consider whether or not there may be any validity to my thought.

First consider the bonding glue for the layers of these tips. Again, I say, I don't know, but I'd assume they are much harder and glossier than the leather itself.

The glue, I would think couldn't hold chalk as well as the leather itself either.

So now to the point, Once a layered tip is installed and the top is crowned to your desired nickel or dime shape, a cross section of the layers are exposed.

These cross sections are separated by the glue that holds the layers together. If your tip is a 12 mm tip, then a certain percentage of that contact surface is taken up by the rings of exposed glue, no?

So wouldn't that mean that whatever that percentage may amount to, would hold chalk poorly and maybe even promote possible miscues?

I don't know, but when I think of this relative to a single layered tip like a triangle for example, there are no rings of hard glue exposed. Maybe this increases the favorable surface area of the tip and single layered tips may be better :shrug:
 
Methinks you worry too much about too little.

Since I'm relatively new to pool, I've only used layered tips. Haven't had any problems yet. Not going to lose sleep worrying about the problems to come.
 
3andstop said:
I don't know, but it's something I've pondered and thought I'd post a thread so others might consider whether or not there may be any validity to my thought.

First consider the bonding glue for the layers of these tips. Again, I say, I don't know, but I'd assume they are much harder and glossier than the leather itself.

The glue, I would think couldn't hold chalk as well as the leather itself either.

So now to the point, Once a layered tip is installed and the top is crowned to your desired nickel or dime shape, a cross section of the layers are exposed.

These cross sections are separated by the glue that holds the layers together. If your tip is a 12 mm tip, then a certain percentage of that contact surface is taken up by the rings of exposed glue, no?

So wouldn't that mean that whatever that percentage may amount to, would hold chalk poorly and maybe even promote possible miscues?

I don't know, but when I think of this relative to a single layered tip like a triangle for example, there are no rings of hard glue exposed. Maybe this increases the favorable surface area of the tip and single layered tips may be better :shrug:
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Interesting stuff 3andstop! My take on this is that if this was a problem then you would see exposed rings showing through the chalk after shooting as the remaining chalk would fall off unevenly based on the adhesion to two different surfaces. In the last 15 years since I switched from single layer tips I haven't seen this effect take place on a tip although I was able to see the circular layer lines through some really crappy dust like chalk I got stuck using a few times. I think the bigger risk on the layered tips is glue that absorbed in their creation into the leather making them glaze quicker. I have had mostly good luck with tips but every once in a while I'd get one put on that wasn't like the others I had previously used of the same type. Those bad ones seemed to act like I was shooting with a phenolic or g10 tip after a few shots. I guess it could also be the leather treatment or tanning process and that could apply to single layer tips too.

Looking forward to answers to your post from our resident tip makers.

Also wondering if anyone knows if the glue used on the layered tips are infused with any leather dust or particles of leather to keep the coefficient of friction similar between the two different surfaces?


Good shooting to you!

Kevin
 
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I've used both layered and solid. Ive found the occassional tip scuffing to start showing more layers and less effective chalk holding ability. I use predator chalk and find at varied life of the tips holds chalk differently. More chalk needed, less needed and so on. I have a LePro on one of my cues that seems to be just fine through scuffing and all. Another cue I have (Robert Harris) has the tips he puts on that are not layered and work fine. I have Tiger Snipers on 2 other cues (Canadian Falcon BS-7 I use to break with and a local cue maker).

I have noted Kamui tips don't hold Predator chalk that well. I thought that to be odd.

I ordered some of the Outsville tips and can't wait to try those out.
 
desertshark said:
I've used both layered and solid. Ive found the occassional tip scuffing to start showing more layers and less effective chalk holding ability. I use predator chalk and find at varied life of the tips holds chalk differently. More chalk needed, less needed and so on. I have a LePro on one of my cues that seems to be just fine through scuffing and all. Another cue I have (Robert Harris) has the tips he puts on that are not layered and work fine. I have Tiger Snipers on 2 other cues (Canadian Falcon BS-7 I use to break with and a local cue maker).

I have noted Kamui tips don't hold Predator chalk that well. I thought that to be odd.

I ordered some of the Outsville tips and can't wait to try those out.[/QUOTE]

I am playing with a soft right now and see no reason to go back to layered tips.
So far no miscues and I can't tell any difference in the cue ball reaction with this solid tip.
The cue ball does not know what kind of tip you have.
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bdorman said:
Methinks you worry too much about too little.

Since I'm relatively new to pool, I've only used layered tips. Haven't had any problems yet. Not going to lose sleep worrying about the problems to come.
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with worry, its just one of those things I think about at night while trying to ignore my wife's snoring is all. :thumbup:
 
more of a golden eagle

Johnnyt said:
Layered tips is another silver bullet IMO. Johnnnyt
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Johnny, I thing the layered tips are more of a golden eagle. It do look purty, 'specially back when you were one of the first to have one!

Not a fan of layered tips. Either they are saturated all the way through with glue or you are constantly going through cycles as the tip wears down. The center of the tip is hard, edges soft; the edges of the tip are hard, center soft.

Another issue is the quality of the layers is all over the place. One may be quality leather well tanned, the next one may be crap and tear like tissue paper.

A one piece tip is much more consistent in my opinion. It is either good or bad and if you like it you can be pretty sure you are going to like it for a long time until you get down to very thin then it changes the way it plays.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Johnny, I thing the layered tips are more of a golden eagle. It do look purty, 'specially back when you were one of the first to have one!

Not a fan of layered tips. Either they are saturated all the way through with glue or you are constantly going through cycles as the tip wears down. The center of the tip is hard, edges soft; the edges of the tip are hard, center soft.

Another issue is the quality of the layers is all over the place. One may be quality leather well tanned, the next one may be crap and tear like tissue paper.

A one piece tip is much more consistent in my opinion. It is either good or bad and if you like it you can be pretty sure you are going to like it for a long time until you get down to very thin then it changes the way it plays.

Hu
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My 1st one came with an OB shaft 5 years ago. It was on for about a week.
 
I'm not going to say this about all single piece tips. But most I've tried will not last as long as a layered tip. I get one year out of my layered tips. And they consistent throughout their lifetime. The singles were mushrooming, glazing (badly), and would only last 3 months. I could scuff the singles I was using and they would glaze before the next weeks play. Constant attention and maintainence was required. Haven't had any of the problems you mentioned with the layered tips I'm using now. Also the single layered ones I was using seemed hard on the outside, and soft on the inside.
With the layered, they seem consistent all the way through. And good ol Masters chalk holds on just fine.
 
I've used 1 piece tips for 40+ years. Lately went to a layered tip. First was an everest, then a predator medium, then a kamui soft. All played well in the beginning. As they wear, they get harder and harder. Had to take the top layer off every week. Dont hold chalk as well and dont handle humidity well. Went back to an old triangle ( new ones are way too soft ). All is well now...lol. 65 cents vs $20...no brainer.
 
Gunn_Slinger said:
I've used 1 piece tips for 40+ years. Lately went to a layered tip. First was an everest, then a predator medium, then a kamui soft. All played well in the beginning. As they wear, they get harder and harder. Had to take the top layer off every week. Don't hold chalk as well and don;t handle humidity well. Went back to an old triangle ( new ones are way too soft ). All is well now...lol. 65 cents vs $20...no brainer.
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I agree! Tried layered everest and onyx good for a week then glazing and miscuing. Kamui black SS was pretty good but hardens over time. I'm back to soaked and pressed 15mm Triangles and almost never miscue. A light scuff once in a while and they are consistent for the life of the tip. I think they actually get better over time.
 
3andstop said:
I don't know, but it's something I've pondered and thought I'd post a thread so others might consider whether or not there may be any validity to my thought.

First consider the bonding glue for the layers of these tips. Again, I say, I don't know, but I'd assume they are much harder and glossier than the leather itself.

The glue, I would think couldn't hold chalk as well as the leather itself either.

So now to the point, Once a layered tip is installed and the top is crowned to your desired nickel or dime shape, a cross section of the layers are exposed.

These cross sections are separated by the glue that holds the layers together. If your tip is a 12 mm tip, then a certain percentage of that contact surface is taken up by the rings of exposed glue, no?

So wouldn't that mean that whatever that percentage may amount to, would hold chalk poorly and maybe even promote possible miscues?

I don't know, but when I think of this relative to a single layered tip like a triangle for example, there are no rings of hard glue exposed. Maybe this increases the favorable surface area of the tip and single layered tips may be better :shrug:
Click to expand...


I dunno. I've been playing with layered tips since the original Mooris came out years ago. Is a layered tip a perfect solution? No, but like everything else, it's a trade off.

Over the years I have played with all kinds of tips, even some of the newer single or non-layered tips, and as of today I have not found any that play better that the G2 Ms I'm currently using. YMMV.

Lou Figueroa
 
3andstop said:
I don't know, but it's something I've pondered and thought I'd post a thread so others might consider whether or not there may be any validity to my thought.

First consider the bonding glue for the layers of these tips. Again, I say, I don't know, but I'd assume they are much harder and glossier than the leather itself.

The glue, I would think couldn't hold chalk as well as the leather itself either.

So now to the point, Once a layered tip is installed and the top is crowned to your desired nickel or dime shape, a cross section of the layers are exposed.

These cross sections are separated by the glue that holds the layers together. If your tip is a 12 mm tip, then a certain percentage of that contact surface is taken up by the rings of exposed glue, no?

So wouldn't that mean that whatever that percentage may amount to, would hold chalk poorly and maybe even promote possible miscues?

I don't know, but when I think of this relative to a single layered tip like a triangle for example, there are no rings of hard glue exposed. Maybe this increases the favorable surface area of the tip and single layered tips may be better :shrug:
Click to expand...
I think it may be the opposite The beveling of the layers exposes the pores of the leather and make it hold chalk even better. Either way, the proof is in the pudding and I think layered tips play more consistent then one piece tips right out of the box.

You should play with what you feel comfortable with, there is no need to look for validation for your opinion and you don't need to explain yourself, none of us need to.
 
I tired a layered tip and not only did I have miscues at odd times, I also noticed little fly specs on the cue ball, which could only have come from the glue layer. I will stick with triangle, thank you.
 
macguy said:
I think it may be the opposite The beveling of the layers exposes the pores of the leather and make it hold chalk even better. Either way, the proof is in the pudding and I think layered tips play more consistent then one piece tips right out of the box.

You should play with what you feel comfortable with, there is no need to look for validation for your opinion and you don't need to explain yourself, none of us need to.
Click to expand...

Geez guys, I'm not looking for validation, I'm merely pointing out something I thought interesting for conversation.

Let me present it this way... if we dipped an installed and shaped tip in the glue used to bond layers together, then let it dry, then tried to chalk and play with it, do you feel it play better or worse than leather?

If you guess worse, then it begs the question what possible benefit could the exposed rings of glue offer the overall playability of a layered tip?

If the exposed rings of glue make up 2 percent of the tip's surface contact, then would it stand to reason layered tips are deficient by that much relative to the pure leather surface of a non layered tip?

Its just a thought. BTW I've been using the tiger emerald layered tips lately, so I'm not trying to validate my using a non layered tip. :smile: I'm simply suggesting a specific topic for general discussion. That being the exposed glue rings on layered tips and their impact, if any on a tips overall performance.
 
No one tip is better than the other for everyone. If that were so, there would only be one tip for all to purchase. I played with Lepro for many years. Tried many different tips over the last 10 years. I found the best tip for ME which is a Karomi med layered tip. Even tried others that have recently came to the market and sold on here. Didn't like them. Just had a different feel. Then I bought a new custom cue with a Black Diamond tip on it. I like it more than the Karomi. They may even be the same tip just a different color. Many pros use layered tips and win many tournaments with them. I don't think the glue causes as much of a problem as you think it does. But I have been wrong before..
 
3andstop said:
Geez guys, I'm not looking for validation, I'm merely pointing out something I thought interesting for conversation.

Let me present it this way... if we dipped an installed and shaped tip in the glue used to bond layers together, then let it dry, then tried to chalk and play with it, do you feel it play better or worse than leather?

If you guess worse, then it begs the question what possible benefit could the exposed rings of glue offer the overall playability of a layered tip?

If the exposed rings of glue make up 2 percent of the tip's surface contact, then would it stand to reason layered tips are deficient by that much relative to the pure leather surface of a non layered tip?

Its just a thought. BTW I've been using the tiger emerald layered tips lately, so I'm not trying to validate my using a non layered tip. :smile: I'm simply suggesting a specific topic for general discussion. That being the exposed glue rings on layered tips and their impact, if any on a tips overall performance.
Click to expand...

If you hit center cue ball....no English then I believe you would get 100%, or very close to, leather contact on the cue ball( no glue rings contacting the cue ball).

The further off center of the cue ball that you hit the % for leather contact should go down. The piece of the tip that actually hits the cue ball is very small, but you should still get piece of a glue ring contact on the cue ball.

The contact area of a tip on the cue ball is only as big as the area inside the red circle on a red circle cue ball. Don't confuse this with a red dot or measle ball.

You have been thinking a lot about this and I like it. Thanks for bringing it up, I like threads like these.
 
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You aren't the only one. I've thought about the layered tips and glue between the layers as well. Maybe somebody will do an experiment and find out if there is any difference between layered and solid tips in that respect.

Aloha.
 
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