League payback

[cesarmorales]

You have to ask these questions up front.

My friend was compaining that he was asked to play in a league because of his ability and told he would win a jacket and a ring. Ok, they came in first place and was told where to buy the jacket and ring with his own cash.

 

[alphadog]

I have been very fortunate to always place around the top in league play.The payback has always been just a little more then what we put in .

I just recently played on a new league i wont mention the name.
We took first i think or close to first and the money that we are going to get back lets say falls short of what we put in.

No $hit won first and going to get back less then what we put in .
What the he!! iis the world coming to.

Put a fork in me, im done...

This post really says it all===You have no knowledge of the league you
are in. Since this is the case,why did you join? If it was for the money,I
have to believe you would know.

 

[JC]

False!!

This may be a bit of a foreign concept but from what I see, every league out there is in the business of making money and the bulk of it comes from one place...the players.

We have a local BCA league here of which I am the president and I can assure you neither myself, the league operator nor the treasurer makes a dime. In fact I think our poor treasurer has to take money from his pocket for supplies and such. After payouts and trophys there's just nothing left. We payback on a point system and the high point player in the league is currently 71 cents ahead of his pay in after 15 weeks. And it goes down from there. Are the players getting screwed? I guess so if they're there to earn money. If they're there to play pool it's a pretty good deal though since all the taverns open the tables for us.

JC

 

[justadub]

You have to ask these questions up front.

My friend was compaining that he was asked to play in a league because of his ability and told he would win a jacket and a ring. Ok, they came in first place and was told where to buy the jacket and ring with his own cash.

And then if they did give him the jacket and the ring, they'd also have to give him a 1099 form....

 

[randyg]

Not all league organizations are in it for profit. ACS is a non-profit organization. Another makes huge profits. Cash pay-outs at the local level depend simply on how much players pay and how it's divvied up. I play in an ACS league in which each team puts in $600 (15 weeks) and first place pays $1,000. Every team cashes and there are prizes for high average. And the annual dues are only $10!!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

Donny. Non-profit Corps still make profits!
randyg

 

[SpinDoctor]

Donny. Non-profit Corps still make profits!
randyg

Exactly my thoughts randy.

Just because a company says they are non-profit doesn't mean that the employees/managers/owners are doing it for free, many times they are paid VERY well for what they do. Often it's a matter of creative accounting to ensure that the companies aren't showing a profit at the end of the year.

This is not a bash against league operators though, they are providing a highly desired service to the pool community and should be compensated for it. League is simply an method for pool players to meet and do what they love as a hobby, not about turning a profit.

I've played many years of league and done very well both locally and internationally and realized very quickly on that it's about testing your abilities versus the best players in the world on the biggest amateur stages, not about trying to get rich doing it.

 

[dr9ball]

Yeah, me too. But why does it have to cost anything if it is only for "fun" and there is not much cost associated with it. I mean, the LO's don't pay for the pool tables, they are not providing the cues, they don't bring referees, they don't supply the balls, etc.etc...

Heck, softball leagues are not free, and offer no cash payouts, but a whole team can play for a season for $600, that includes a softball field, time consuming field maintenance, lights, umpires, new softballs for each game, scoreboard, and trophies for the top teams.

There are pool leagues teams that pay for that to play on a crappy barbox and get NADA in return. More money should go to the players and a good portion to the bar/poolroom. The money has to go somewhere, why not to the players and the room owners? Just a thought.

It works for us in Chicago. $12 per player, of that $4 to house for table time and a $1 to the stats/schedule/handicap person, the rest into trophies and cash payouts. Even the team that finishes in 16th place gets $50 back, and that is better than a sharp stick in the eye

How much would "YOU" charge to run the league so everyone else can have a like like you suggest? There are very few people that will put up with the hassles of running a league and not pay themselves.

 

[8pack]

This post really says it all===You have no knowledge of the league you
are in. Since this is the case,why did you join? If it was for the money,I
have to believe you would know.

You are right i didnt have any knowledge of the league.
I have been playing in leagues since i was 21 and not once was payback less then what was payed in for the top teams.
(Im 45 and have played in a few different leagues). Leagues are fun and its great to get out with friends and play but when a league offers really nothing but that and really not a chance to get your money back well im not in the habit of giving my money away.And add the other cost,gas ,food, drinking it can become a little expensive.
After reading some of the post here i guess some of you are in the name of fun.I guess we all have are own opinions and im good with that.

 

[alphadog]

You are right i didnt have any knowledge of the league.
I have been playing in leagues since i was 21 and not once was payback less then what was payed in for the top teams.
(Im 45 and have played in a few different leagues). Leagues are fun and its great to get out with friends and play but when a league offers really nothing but that and really not a chance to get your money back well im not in the habit of giving my money away.And add the other cost,gas ,food, drinking it can become a little expensive.
After reading some of the post here i guess some of you are in the name of fun.I guess we all have are own opinions and im good with that.

GREAT civil reply! I am going to green you for the articulate response.:thumbup:

 

[Mark Griffin]

Donny,

You are misleading people. As Randy G said, non-profits also make a profit.

BUT the issue is up to each local league. In all national league organizations, there are good and bad operators. Every league has their own guidelines.

It has nothing to do with national affiliation.

Don't twist this thread into an inaccurate ad for ACS.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI. - BCAPL. - USAPL

Not all league organizations are in it for profit. ACS is a non-profit organization. Another makes huge profits. Cash pay-outs at the local level depend simply on how much players pay and how it's divvied up. I play in an ACS league in which each team puts in $600 (15 weeks) and first place pays $1,000. Every team cashes and there are prizes for high average. And the annual dues are only $10!!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

 

[JasBy]

One other thing to consider is if the league in question has any sort of non-team tournament. My local league here pays well for the top 16 in the state tournament, which my team qualifies for without an entry fee more than half the time, but they also have a fairly large singles tournament, with free entries going to past money winners and individual league MVPs. Last I knew, the payout for 1st place in that tournament was $10k, and that money has to come from the weekly fees also, minus the paid entries. Just an thought about additional areas that leagues would spend money on.

 

[KRJ]

How much would "YOU" charge to run the league so everyone else can have a like like you suggest? There are very few people that will put up with the hassles of running a league and not pay themselves.

Well, I ran the league in which I speak for a few years with a few other guys as part of the "board". We took no pay. I still play in the league and the current guys running take no pay either.

But, with that said, I would not have any problems if the league guys didn't have to pay to play during the session. That would be about $200, and I know quite a few guys that would like to play for "free".....

But of course, it's much easier when the league is under ONE roof. There is no running around collecting score sheets and dues from multiple bars. The guy running it plays on the same table every week, the one nearest the front door, so team captains can drop off their score sheets and money to him on their way out. And he lives near the "stats" person, so I believe he drops them off to her the next day....

Very few problems ever though. ACS league, everyone knows the rules...couple arguments once in awhile, but once a decision is made, it's over. Not worth getting tossed out of a good league like this.....

Plus, the end of the league party is covered by the poolroom to show their gratitude, and that is for 2 resasons, first is they are getting paid for their equipment every week, (unlike some leagues where they are expected to give it away for free) and they have 80 folks eating and drinking every Thursday, year round

 

[dr9ball]

Well, I ran the league in which I speak for a few years with a few other guys as part of the "board". We took no pay. I still play in the league and the current guys running take no pay either.

But, with that said, I would not have any problems if the league guys didn't have to pay to play during the session. That would be about $200, and I know quite a few guys that would like to play for "free".....

But of course, it's much easier when the league is under ONE roof. There is no running around collecting score sheets and dues from multiple bars. The guy running it plays on the same table every week, the one nearest the front door, so team captains can drop off their score sheets and money to him on their way out. And he lives near the "stats" person, so I believe he drops them off to her the next day....

Very few problems ever though. ACS league, everyone knows the rules...couple arguments once in awhile, but once a decision is made, it's over. Not worth getting tossed out of a good league like this.....

Plus, the end of the league party is covered by the poolroom to show their gratitude, and that is for 2 resasons, first is they are getting paid for their equipment every week, (unlike some leagues where they are expected to give it away for free) and they have 80 folks eating and drinking every Thursday, year round

Thanks for your response. Sounds like a very nice league and pool room to play in. Wish there were more like it.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Money is money but secret treasures give me big wood.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

His payout after 30 weeks is close to $1,000.

He spends his $1000 on decent marijuana and gets free french fries when he gets the munchies.

What the heck are any of us doing playing league pool?

Its a night out twice a week with my wife and buds, improving our games, having drinks and a few laughs. The competition and the thrill of winning
here and there.

What more can a person want for their money?

 

[LoVe4DaGaMe]

He spends his $1000 on decent marijuana and gets free french fries when he gets the munchies.

What the heck are any of us doing playing league pool?

Its a night out twice a week with my wife and buds, improving our games, having drinks and a few laughs. The competition and the thrill of winning
here and there.

What more can a person want for their money?

You are a smart man, I enjoy your posts.

I use my league for practice, so I play two nights a week to keep in shape, and enter tournies on the side.. as soon as I get my own diamond pool table, I will practice at home any other time other than League, and I will become a Hermit to society.. Evenutally people will run into me at tournaments, where I am the greatest pool player who has ever lived, and know one will know who I am, because It took being a hermit to get there, lol.

 

[mikepage]

Not all league organizations are in it for profit. ACS is a non-profit organization. [...]

Do you think that passionate people with vision somehow get corrupted when they check a box on their tax returns?

Did you know that Merryl Streep is a for-profit actor?

I own and operate a for-profit business right now. I'm also on the board of directors (chaired it for four years) of a $20 million non-profit organization.

Before I started my business, I ran a local monthly pool tournament series for a couple years, organized and ran a straight pool league, prepared instructional videos and put them on youtube, and developed a new system for rating players. There was no money involved.

Now I have a big billiard parlor. We have 35 league teams and another 50 people per week playing in weekly tournaments. We're running a $3,000 added tournament this weekend on the 7' tables. We do instruction and try to find ways to get new folks into the game. Of course the numbers have to work out. They do for any organization.

But the key is I AM THE SAME PERSON. I don't somehow now think of things in terms of dollars. I think the same way I did before. And I've spent hours on the phone with Mark Griffin. And I've had my friend Randy G. multiple times as a house guest. If you think these people are motivated by money rather than vision, then you imo are displaying an extraordinary lack of insight.

As to the finances of pool league for a player, there are many things to consider. If you play pool league at Fargo Billiards, then you pay $12 each week.

And this is what you get.

(1) Free table time all day on league day. That included before league, during league, and after league. (More than half the players are still around three hours after the league matched are done).

(2) You play your match on two clean diamond tables that are more than six-feet apart, have simonis cloth, balls cleaned every use.

(3) knowledgable staff

(4) free drink

(5) A $300 (per person) contribution to your travel fund for ANY player who goes to Vegas for either singles or team

(6) A payout for every team that ranges from about $300 to about $1,000 (per four-person team) for a 15-team division.

(7) A player appreciation night with a big spread of free food, keg of beer, fun scotch-doubles head-to-head speed pool events and other competitions, and many giveaways.

(8) A team tournament with $1500 added.

(9) A free hour of pool to be used during the week for every table run.

 

[satman]

Do they give out pins and patches

Lets say if your total fee ends at 200 for all the weeks you play.
You win that league and you only get back 150.Im saying thats wrong and if some of you think its ok,well..

Or have a banquet to pass out awards at the end of the season? Most of the leagues who have a banquet in our area, pass out the pins, and patches for most ero's, most 10-0's, and other things like that. Those things have to be paid for. The league operator don't get them for free. Chances are, if you don't care about getting the pin's and such, or trophy's, you play at an above average skill, {or maybe you're a little money hungry}. Either way, if you don't like the payout, ask around and find a league where they pay back cash only.

 

[satman]

Could you open place here? close to me?

Nice setup for your players. I agree with you on the passion and vision too. In my personal opinion, anyone who gets involved promoting pool is absolutely nuts. Sorry Mark, and Randy, and all you other guys and gals. I can't believe you guys have survived and kept food on the table at any other kind of business, and then get involved in promoting pool. Trying to deal with a bunch of spoiled pool players, who think they are the ones who should get paid, have perfect equipment all the time, free rooms, no entry fee's, someone to call and wake them up because they were out all nite gambling or drinking.... and then for you guys to wanna just break even, or maybe not have to sell your house to pay for the tourney, that would be crazy. You guys should have to sell everything you own, and borrow all the money you can to run a tour.

Sorry, being a bit sarcastic,,,,, for anyone who thinks that any of these guys don't have a vision to make pool better, and head it in a positive direction, you need to take 2 weeks off, and then quit pool.

As for the league operators, they need to make some money too, or there won't be leagues.

Do you think that passionate people with vision somehow get corrupted when they check a box on their tax returns?

Did you know that Merryl Streep is a for-profit actor?

I own and operate a for-profit business right now. I'm also on the board of directors (chaired it for four years) of a $20 million non-profit organization.

Before I started my business, I ran a local monthly pool tournament series for a couple years, organized and ran a straight pool league, prepared instructional videos and put them on youtube, and developed a new system for rating players. There was no money involved.

Now I have a big billiard parlor. We have 35 league teams and another 50 people per week playing in weekly tournaments. We're running a $3,000 added tournament this weekend on the 7' tables. We do instruction and try to find ways to get new folks into the game. Of course the numbers have to work out. They do for any organization.

But the key is I AM THE SAME PERSON. I don't somehow now think of things in terms of dollars. I think the same way I did before. And I've spent hours on the phone with Mark Griffin. And I've had my friend Randy G. multiple times as a house guest. If you think these people are motivated by money rather than vision, then you imo are displaying an extraordinary lack of insight.

As to the finances of pool league for a player, there are many things to consider. If you play pool league at Fargo Billiards, then you pay $12 each week.

And this is what you get.

(1) Free table time all day on league day. That included before league, during league, and after league. (More than half the players are still around three hours after the league matched are done).

(2) You play your match on two clean diamond tables that are more than six-feet apart, have simonis cloth, balls cleaned every use.

(3) knowledgable staff

(4) free drink

(5) A $300 (per person) contribution to your travel fund for ANY player who goes to Vegas for either singles or team

(6) A payout for every team that ranges from about $300 to about $1,000 (per four-person team) for a 15-team division.

(7) A player appreciation night with a big spread of free food, keg of beer, fun scotch-doubles head-to-head speed pool events and other competitions, and many giveaways.

(8) A team tournament with $1500 added.

(9) A free hour of pool to be used during the week for every table run.

 

[STICKBNDER]

Im pretty sure the local acs league here in houston takes money off the top. If i remember correctly its like 30 or 40%.

There is a lot of headache involved in running a league. I run one of the local vnea leagues here in houston. And i can tell you with stats, flyers, tournaments, complaints, driving around trying to grow the league, etc it is a toll on someone if they are putting in the effort. We don’t take a lick for ourselves. But we do cover our expenses out of the league. The league was nothing left when we took over, and has grown some in a short period of time. And still growing. I would say its about 8 to 10% of the total income that is used to keep up and growing the league.


But at the end of the day, we are paying about 4 1/2 teams full money to goto vegas, out of 8 teams. Not bad odds. 3 sessions win trips, and one blind draw. We also pay a fourth place about half the full amount.

I have played in many leagues over the years, and most are for profit leagues.