Lenny, TAR, Big Truck all good streamers

[miplayerstour]

It seems if travel expenses are high and sponsors or making money off streaming is difficult for now anyway, why not somehow team up to make sure there is coverage across the country for events big and small as long as there are great players and potentially great matchups to stream?

Seems it would be cost effective and while not becoming actual partners you would be working in partnership on certain events.

The more credible streamers there are teaming together the more visible and viable it may seem to potential sponsors.

Maybe its not soething anyone would be interested in but it was a thought that popped into my head while I sit here working on future events.

 

[Fast Lenny]

It seems if travel expenses are high and sponsors or making money off streaming is difficult for now anyway, why not somehow team up to make sure there is coverage across the country for events big and small as long as there are great players and potentially great matchups to stream?

Seems it would be cost effective and while not becoming actual partners you would be working in partnership on certain events.

The more credible streamers there are teaming together the more visible and viable it may seem to potential sponsors.

Maybe its not soething anyone would be interested in but it was a thought that popped into my head while I sit here working on future events.

I agree it is a good idea but tough to divide money/product from the sponsors I would think. I have 2 affiliates on board with us so far broadcasting and hope to have more sign up with us. I give them a page where we can put there sponsor banners up along with a chip in if they need it and also access to our newsletter with around 2000 people and growing on it. I do think what I am doing is as close as I can get to making what you suggested feasible, but am open to suggestions.

Lucky for me the weekly stream I do does not cost me very much to do but when I did a monthly tournament awhile back it would run about $100-$200 in expenses and was in state so traveling expenses have not been huge. If I were to stream out of state say California I would expect at the very least my gas, food and hotel to be taken care of which I feel is very reasonable. If it is out of driving range my airfare would need to be covered, if they want to throw me a jelly roll then that is fine too. :smile:

My biggest thing is to make what I am doing self sustaining so I do not have to reach into my pocket to bring a free product to the fans, just recently it is looking up with more sponsor interest and fans supporting us. Recently we have been in touch with a few sponsors and those who are coming on board now are getting in cheap IMO as this is the best way to advertise right now. Equipment is not cheap at all, I spent recently around $300 on audio and have a new laptop on its way that was close to $1,000, it adds up.

 

[HustlinU83]

good thinkin guys

 

[JCIN]

Warning: Streaming Manifesto to follow.

My personal opinion is that all of the various free tournament streams from regional and local tours will go away before too long. For one reason. There is no money in it and expenses are so high. Streaming is kind of a fad now. People see they can do it with minimal gear and get a response so they go set up on the weekends at local events.

So you have three or four streams each weekend and none of them usually getting over a couple hundred viewers on average. Usually much less than that unless it is a very talented field. Eventually the people doing the streams are going to get tired of giving up their weekends or a laptop or camera is going to break and faced with a $500 replacement cost just decide it doesn't look so fun anymore.

The really tricky part is that as soon as a streamer figures out a way make real money streaming other people's events the promoters and players are going to want their end. So now the successful streamers who have made it past the "fun stage" are going to have to fight for the premier events since those are the only ones that will produce large enough audiences to generate real revenue. And they will have to split that revenue with the players and promoters. If it ever gets that far.

I personally see no viable business model in free streaming in the pool industry for the near term unless one has an extremely robust merchandising and distribution network for content captured at these free streams. There is no cash in pool. Hotels and airlines don't take shafts, racks and balls for services rendered. So now the streamer not only has to become proficient at streaming he has to become a billiard merchandise retailer in order to convert the only available sponsorship into actual capital that he/she can use.

The donation model will not sustain either. I could give my reasons for thinking that but I think most here can figure it out.

As for a network of streamers across the country each promoting the others, from what I have heard Big Truck has just such an "Alliance" on the drawing board. It could be interesting to see the effects, it would be something to sell to sponsors....but you are right back to the merchandise equation. How do you chop up a shaft five ways? Who does all the selling? If someone can figure out how to make it work it will be interesting.

If all of the above is my view on streaming, what do I think is the successful way forward ? I could tell you but then I would have to.......

 

[miplayerstour]

Agreed that some will fade however............

there are some great ones out there that many would support and keep around as you know!

IMO streaming reaches way more people than television does and its for that reason that I think it will become huge! So many people are online at home and at work and with the internet, there are going to be far more choices to watch live than tv and to interact live with the commentators of events.

The sponsor money is key as you've all said. It will take time and work to get people on board but it can be done. If you teamed up on certain events as a joint effort, the group with the least amount of expenses should cover the event and then the remaining folks left in the group share the expenses but get the advertising benefit as if they were there. The ones on site would stream while the offsite groups could cover another event at the same time or offer to moderate the chats. There are a ton of ideas for this specifically.

If there are sponsors that offer items that obviously cannot be chopped then raffle those items off and split the proceeds between the group. There are many ways to raise money from sponsor items and if everyone involved uses their contacts in the business to get autographs on some things or one on one meeting with a fan that wins a raffle etc.........that would raise money to cover expenses as well. Again, there are a ton of ways to use the players and sponsor items to raise money.

Its a lot of work but can be done. As far as who would sell for you and hold the raffles..............if you cant find friends and/or family willing to assist for nothing or cheaply, someone could be hired cheaply in this economy especially if a perk might be to occasionally meet their favorite players or accompany you to stream an event. A ton of things appeal to pool lovers so that could be part of the payday for someone.

Just a few of my thoughts

 

[Fast Lenny]

Warning: Streaming Manifesto to follow.

My personal opinion is that all of the various free tournament streams from regional and local tours will go away before too long. For one reason. There is no money in it and expenses are so high. Streaming is kind of a fad now. People see they can do it with minimal gear and get a response so they go set up on the weekends at local events.

So you have three or four streams each weekend and none of them usually getting over a couple hundred viewers on average. Usually much less than that unless it is a very talented field. Eventually the people doing the streams are going to get tired of giving up their weekends or a laptop or camera is going to break and faced with a $500 replacement cost just decide it doesn't look so fun anymore.

The really tricky part is that as soon as a streamer figures out a way make real money streaming other people's events the promoters and players are going to want their end. So now the successful streamers who have made it past the "fun stage" are going to have to fight for the premier events since those are the only ones that will produce large enough audiences to generate real revenue. And they will have to split that revenue with the players and promoters. If it ever gets that far.

I personally see no viable business model in free streaming in the pool industry for the near term unless one has an extremely robust merchandising and distribution network for content captured at these free streams. There is no cash in pool. Hotels and airlines don't take shafts, racks and balls for services rendered. So now the streamer not only has to become proficient at streaming he has to become a billiard merchandise retailer in order to convert the only available sponsorship into actual capital that he/she can use.

The donation model will not sustain either. I could give my reasons for thinking that but I think most here can figure it out.

As for a network of streamers across the country each promoting the others, from what I have heard Big Truck has just such an "Alliance" on the drawing board. It could be interesting to see the effects, it would be something to sell to sponsors....but you are right back to the merchandise equation. How do you chop up a shaft five ways? Who does all the selling? If someone can figure out how to make it work it will be interesting.

If all of the above is my view on streaming, what do I think is the successful way forward ? I could tell you but then I would have to.......

I do agree on many points Justin. I think the craze will wear down and many of the free streams will stop happening as people get tired out. I have been doing it for a year and half and continue to improve the stream and have good plans for OTR, the affiliate program seems to be the step for us in the right direction to separate us from other streamers who are randomly streaming alone. We offer tech support, send out a newsletter to around 2000 people and also give them a solid web space to list banners for sponsors and do more then they can just on a Ustream page.

I think the guys out there doing it for free here and there will see that there is no money in it and stop, I am not money motivated fortunately and do it for the game first and to me it is a hobby. I know guys like yourself who have more money invested along with the travel expenses have to make money and it should be number 1 on the agenda. I know if you guys were the only one doing it perhaps free streaming might work with all the sponsors getting behind you.

Right now the sponsors are spreading funds among a bunch of the streamers and you see many of the same names popping up but not too many new ones. I am sure we both agree that the advertising benefits to these sponsors is better then what they can get in other places and is very affordable. The sponsors will know who is in it for the long haul and is providing a good quality product and will get behind those people hopefully.

I do not see a way for all of us to get together as one but we can certainly all work together to help one another. I am not opposed to helping other people who are streaming and have helped atleast a dozen get started. I also do not have a problem with sending viewers to other streams including TARs which we have and I try to do regularly.

For me this is not a competition but is good for the sport and hopefully something good will become of it, I believe it has for the viewers for sure and the advertisers too. One thing I do have a problem with is people who might try to steal sponsors away or feel this is a competition.

 

[JCIN]

I do agree on many points Justin. I think the craze will wear down and many of the free streams will stop happening as people get tired out. I have been doing it for a year and half and continue to improve the stream and have good plans for OTR, the affiliate program seems to be the step for us in the right direction to separate us from other streamers who are randomly streaming alone. We offer tech support, send out a newsletter to around 2000 people and also give them a solid web space to list banners for sponsors and do more then they can just on a Ustream page.

I think the guys out there doing it for free here and there will see that there is no money in it and stop, I am not money motivated fortunately and do it for the game first and to me it is a hobby. I know guys like yourself who have more money invested along with the travel expenses have to make money and it should be number 1 on the agenda. I know if you guys were the only one doing it perhaps free streaming might work with all the sponsors getting behind you.

Right now the sponsors are are spreading funds among a bunch of the streamers and you see many of the same names popping up but not too many new ones. I am sure we both agree that the advertising benefits to these sponsors is better then what they can get in other places and is very affordable. The sponsors will know who is in it for the long haul and is providing a good quality product and will get behind those people hopefully.

I do not see a way for all of us to get together as one but we can certainly all work together to help one another. I am not opposed to helping other people who are streaming and have helped atleast a dozen get started. I also do not have a problem with sending viewers to other streams including TARs which we have and I try to do regularly.

For me this is not a competition but is good for the sport and hopefully something good will become of it, I believe it has for the viewers for sure and the advertisers too. One thing I do have a problem with is people who might try to steal sponsors away or feel this is a competition.

Whenever money is involved it becomes a competition. Right now its all kumbaya and all that, but if there is ever is any actual serious money in streaming or pool for that matter just watch how things change. Not saying its right or I agree with it but it is what it is.

This is how I make my living so I view it different than most people. The biggest thing that all of the streams are doing now is educating people that you can watch pool on the internet. After the gee whiz wears off (and it is starting to) people are going to want quality. Quality matches and quality coverage. That will shake things out more than anything.

The down side to every $50 added tournament having a stream each weekend is that it creates static, confusion and fractures the audience. But since that is pool in a nutshell I guess streaming shouldn't be any different. In the end the market will decide who survives and what model works. Just streaming to stream will get old. It could also burn out what little sponsors there are, although most sponsors do get by far the most bang for the buck on streams IMO.

At some point something has to act as a catalyst. If the most any stream can do is sub-2000 people concurrently world wide for the biggest events in pool then we are all just kidding each other. I give it a couple more years for it to either gain real traction or just fall into a rut. I hear crazy numbers of total views but I don't believe them until someone can break it down with supporting facts about individual viewers.

The local events will keep getting 100 and under audiences no matter what happens. No one really wants to watch people they dont know and have never heard of play pool on a low quality internet feed. The large events will stay PPV like the Open or be a mix like what we do with the USBTC. I think it is an exciting time to be in this business. In 15 years we will look back and say either "We were there in the beginning" or "WTF were we thinking?"

 

[mnorwood]

How have live streamers fared in other sports where the game is not being illegally streamed (all original content)?????

 

[mnorwood]

Whenever money is involved it becomes a competition. Right now its all kumbaya and all that, but if there is ever is any actual serious money in streaming or pool for that matter just watch how things change. Not saying its right or I agree with it but it is what it is.

This is how I make my living so I view it different than most people. The biggest thing that all of the streams are doing now is educating people that you can watch pool on the internet. After the gee whiz wears off (and it is starting to) people are going to want quality. Quality matches and quality coverage. That will shake things out more than anything.

The down side to every $50 added tournament having a stream each weekend is that it creates static, confusion and fractures the audience. But since that is pool in a nutshell I guess streaming shouldn't be any different. In the end the market will decide who survives and what model works. Just streaming to stream will get old. It could also burn out what little sponsors there are, although most sponsors do get by far the most bang for the buck on streams IMO.

At some point something has to act as a catalyst. If the most any stream can do is sub-2000 people concurrently world wide for the biggest events in pool then we are all just kidding each other. I give it a couple more years for it to either gain real traction or just fall into a rut. I hear crazy numbers of total views but I don't believe them until someone can break it down with supporting facts about individual viewers.

The local events will keep getting 100 and under audiences no matter what happens. No one really wants to watch people they dont know and have never heard of play pool on a low quality internet feed. The large events will stay PPV like the Open or be a mix like what we do with the USBTC. I think it is an exciting time to be in this business. In 15 years we will look back and say either "We were there in the beginning" or "WTF were we thinking?"

I think your right. I have done as much video content as anyone on youtube. Altogether I made about 3k on it with freebies people sent me included. When the economy went south google dumped me and after 3 years I got tired of posting stuff. If I were to be offered any amount of sponsorship money or material to continue I would, but I am done with charity work.

 

[mattiefingaz]

Good evening all...gonna throw my hat in the ring here with my view on things.

First off...thank you to all the people mentioned in the title of this thread, and those that weren't. Not only have I seen some great pool, but I've met a TON of some of the greatest people in the process.

There's been some great realizations and assessments as to the future of streaming in the posts before me. Be it pool or anything else. Streaming is a media that is growing and will continue to grow without question. How entertainment is accessed and viewed has changed dramatically over the last few years. It's evolving as society does. Fast and loose, quick and easy to access. Gone are the days of waiting weeks, or months to see something broadcast on TV that you were unable to attend. No matter the event, no matter the sport. Television broadcast stations are in panic because "time shifting" devices like TiVo allow viewers to fast forward through commercials. The ONLY way shows make money is advertising.

In the internet generation we're all a part of today it's a rough game. No longer are we relegated to 3 channels with rabbit ears. Seinfeld's cast could command a million each per episode because they could sell a single 30 second spot for 250K and up.

With all that being said, the theory remains the same. The better your production, the more enticing show you can bring, the more folks are going to watch. The more that watch, the more you can monetize what you're doing.

Truck, Lenny and the folks at Accu-Stats put on a GREAT show. I don't watch the 200 BS feeds you can find because they aren't worth a nickle in my book.

Put on the best show you can, give your viewers something they want to see. The internet isn't going anywhere and traffic equals dollars.

No different than when the washing powder companies paid for the production of daily episodic shows on the radio. Soap Operas seem to have had a pretty substantial effect on society as well as the wallets of a lot of people.

I LOVE streaming pool...I support and follow the ones I feel do a good job and keep me entertained. I am loyal as a result.

Sorry for getting a bit verbose....I like what I like.

Mattie

 

[Matt90]

I really hate to post this BUT




If I have time to go to a tournament and enjoy it ,I will do it . If
I can get enough people to advertise to cover my cost great ....if
not oh well I had a good time anyway . All things considered its a
expensive hobby unless you have a event that can draw in a PPV such
as TAR .If someone says hey Matt we think you do good work and
need your services here at such and such time to do this tournament
and we will pay you then awsome.....Till then I am a lone wolf type and have no
desire to be in a "alliance" If I never do another stream it won't kill
me and would probably have more fun at times going two and out or
just showing up to sweat the action .I think any chance of live streaming
being lucrative in the world of pool without bigger entities with media
backing knocking the smaller guys like me,Big Truck and others out of
the running is a very BIG maybe. So I plan on just having a good time
with it when I can and making some more new friends .We should all
listen to Justin because he has thought it out well as seen in his above
post .Lenny's wisdom is also noted in that helping each other and referals
is far more concievable than the afore mentioned "alliance" ....lol , I had
to laugh

 

[Blackjack]

"If you got an area of excellence... if you're the best at something, anything... then rich can be arranged. Rich can come fairly easy." ~ Fast Eddie Felson

You just have to have the right attitude.

 

[mattiefingaz]

"If you got an area of excellence... if you're the best at something, anything... then rich can be arranged. Rich can come fairly easy." ~ Fast Eddie Felson

You just have to have the right attitude.

DANG...you summed up what took me 7 paragraphs to do in one quote....Great Job Dave.

Mattie

 

[Fast Lenny]

Whenever money is involved it becomes a competition. Right now its all kumbaya and all that, but if there is ever is any actual serious money in streaming or pool for that matter just watch how things change. Not saying its right or I agree with it but it is what it is.

This is how I make my living so I view it different than most people. The biggest thing that all of the streams are doing now is educating people that you can watch pool on the internet. After the gee whiz wears off (and it is starting to) people are going to want quality. Quality matches and quality coverage. That will shake things out more than anything.

The down side to every $50 added tournament having a stream each weekend is that it creates static, confusion and fractures the audience. But since that is pool in a nutshell I guess streaming shouldn't be any different. In the end the market will decide who survives and what model works. Just streaming to stream will get old. It could also burn out what little sponsors there are, although most sponsors do get by far the most bang for the buck on streams IMO.

At some point something has to act as a catalyst. If the most any stream can do is sub-2000 people concurrently world wide for the biggest events in pool then we are all just kidding each other. I give it a couple more years for it to either gain real traction or just fall into a rut. I hear crazy numbers of total views but I don't believe them until someone can break it down with supporting facts about individual viewers.

The local events will keep getting 100 and under audiences no matter what happens. No one really wants to watch people they dont know and have never heard of play pool on a low quality internet feed. The large events will stay PPV like the Open or be a mix like what we do with the USBTC. I think it is an exciting time to be in this business. In 15 years we will look back and say either "We were there in the beginning" or "WTF were we thinking?"

For me it wont change, I feel okay doing what I am doing and am one of those guys if it turns into something great then that is just great then, haha, but if not I still have plenty of other stuff going on in life and this is a hobby. I am not burnt out yet a year and half later of streaming nearly every week but you never know when I wake up one day and find myself needing that time for other stuff as I am spread thin already.

I do think people are demanding quality for sure as we have seen plenty of complaints about free streams. I know that TAR and Accustats have the best equipment and production of everyone out there but also have people working with them to make it happen. Virtually all the other guys are one man shows and single camera set ups like myself. I do think most people are very happy with the single camera setups to hang out and watch especially if it is free and some complain when they try to do some fancy camera work like Galveston because it is the wrong angles. I have to say that the best I have seen is TAR and I think people should try the PPV one time and give it a shot and see how good it really is.

I will just continue to support my local room and players and do my part there. If someone close by needs someone to stream an event then we can make arrangements. I have turned down 3 events out of state mainly because of too late of notice but I did appreciate people considering me for it. I think in time the masses of pool like league players will really catch on to the streaming and will watch the quality ones and enjoy it, it really has yet to explode. The numbers via Ustream are questionable because sometimes your on the home page and it runs up the viewer numbers who really are not viewing but if you have a stat counter on your site and the Ustream page you can get numbers that are accurate. The day I see 10,000 people watching all at once on a pool stream will really make me happy and we will before 2010 is up and I might even bet on it. :smile:

 

[Bigtruck]

"If you got an area of excellence... if you're the best at something, anything... then rich can be arranged. Rich can come fairly easy." ~ Fast Eddie Felson

You just have to have the right attitude.

Amen to that David!

I know some really intelligent individuals that can figure out every reason something won't work, and they love being right! LOL.

Ray

 

[Run the Century]

I think streaming is the nuts

I have my computer hooked up to my 65 inch plasma tv - now for the modest price of 25 bucks I can see 3 days of world class pool without having to travel to CA (to watch the Oscar - Morra match). I have paid for many of these streams and it has been money well spent. Even though the quality of some of the free streams isnt as good as TAR and Accu Stat - I still enjoy them too.

Now if I had to watch them on my computer screen - no way!