Magic Rack and Joshua Filler's 7-pack

[JAM]

Though today I am a railbird, I used to play, competing on the leagues and in local tournaments., I also went on the road a few years in the '80s with a road player. As such, I really do understand all games of pocket billiards.

I made a thread on my Facebook page about Joshua Filler's 7-pack, and much to my surprise, my other half posted on my thread he thought the Magic Rack shouldn't be allowed. I asked him privately why. Well, I thought about it. Doesn't the Magic Rack create the perfect rack with no cracks? Doesn't a pool player have to break perfectly each time in order for the wing ball to fly in the side? In comparison, when pins are racked in a bowling alley, doesn't the bowler have to hit them perfeclty in order to make a strike?

Some pros today practice their breaks. I saw Earl Strickland do it over and over again at many tournaments. Shane Van Boening is also a break mechanic. The break, at least in my eyes today, is just as important as having the ability to run out. Without a good break, even if you can run out, you will never be able to dominate. The break is THAT important.

In my eyes, the only way the Magic rack cannot be perfect is if the placement is off a few millimeters on the spot. By my own admission, I've never played pool with a Magic Rack and would enjoy hearing thoughts from others who have.

 

[j2pac]

While no small feat, beating the ghost in the comfort of your own home is a completely different animal than running out a set at at tournament for your livelihood.

And maybe Filler is just that good. I don't think a rule or format change is warranted because one guy is playing as good as anyone ever has. That's just greatness shining through in the moment. Now, if a significant percentage of the field was running out the set every match, it might be a different story.

Well said. Changing rules can certainly have an affect on the stronger players. That said, the stronger player will always be the stronger player. I'm reminded of when Tiger Woods was in his prime on the PGA Tour. The tour attempted to "Tiger proof" a number of golf courses through various methods/rule changes. Well how did that work out?
I'm not saying that the Magic Rack is either good or bad. I'm only saying that any rule put in place, isn't just going to affect Filler...it's going to get them all, and it will likely affect him, and the other top dawgs, less than it will those of slightly lesser skill.
Just an opinion from the cheap seats.

 

[white1]

Let's throw out Molina Mike's conspiracy theory out with last night's garbage. Using the "everyone fiddles with the rack" argument here is just plain disrespectful to Filler, already one of the greatest players of all time. As is so often noted on this forum, however, the haters will hate. At least Panozzo researched the matter before subscribing to this fiction.

SVBs view is the same as most of us. Josh was giving himself the same rack everyone else was getting, but Josh figured it out better. As I noted in my post, it's fair to argue that the conditions were too easy for those accustomed to a tighter break box and tighter pockets, but the playing field was fair, and sure enough, the guy who won the DCC 9ball last year won this year. Nobody has ever found a field, a set of playing conditions or a tournament format where Filler can't beat them all.

The real issue here is that the Derby City 9ball is a 500-player event, and these conditions are appropriate for over 90% of them. As we saw, the time they went tighter, the Derby City 9ball finished at about 10:00 AM the day after it was meant to end, so going with tighter pockets is not an option.

Scheduling problems should not be a reason to consider making the game more difficult for everyone but still fair.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Different instance, but Pia and Jasmin had a match where the 9 was heading straight for the corner on every break. Jasmin took advantage of having a stronger break (which I don't blame her for), and Pia was (rightfully) upset the racks were allowing it. This was with an official racking using an Aero Rack.
Could even see Pia and Jasmin trying to rack after the match and agreeing the corner ball wasn't staying tight. A template would have mitigated it.

(That official also made a boggling shot clock error on the first shot after a break too. I think they called the head official over 2-3 times during/after the set...)

Yeah, I saw that match live (on stream). The triangle rack has proven event after event, triangle brand after triangle brand, year after year, decade after decade, that it causes nothing but trouble!

 

[ShortBusRuss]

And it's never happened - just shows how insane all these posters are, derby has been around since the 90s with 400 - 500 players per year and it's NEVER happened

It was a lot more possible when the races were to 7. Hell, I put a 4 pack on Joey Gray mah damn self, the year he took second in the One Pocket. And I had a sub 600 Fargorate at the time.

And the point is.. There is NO "incentive" to go for running out the set. If YOU can put down a 5 pack.... So can your opponent. So, if you get a shot that is a little iffy in that 6th rack.. You play safe, because you don't get "anything" for attempting to run out the set. And if you don't put the shot down, then you may very well pay for your lack of judgement by seeing your opponent put a package down, and then play a lock up safe on you.

The pro safety game is so refined these days because of Efren and Jose's influence, that it's just stupid to try to push things to run out the set.

That doesn't mean it is not EASIER to run out the set, if one was so inclined.

In the pre-Efren days... Strickland and Archer used to put down big packages ALL the time. I absolutely guarantee you they would have put down more on today's equipment with a magic rack, but not being as exposed to today's superior safety play.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I think it's a great rule!

My comment was about the everybody running out the set BS, again, when has it happened?

Shaw ran 8 out of 9 racks against me in our DCC 2023 9 ball match. I watched Lee Van do either 7 or 8 racks on a table beside me that same year. And those were the 4 1/8" pockets.

 

[korey]

If I remember correctly, which is prolly not the case, DuLuna ran a decent pack on the TV table in '18 with the triangle rack. 4.5in pockets are like ping pong balls into dumpsters for these straight shooters.

 

[sjm]

Scheduling problems should not be a reason to consider making the game more difficult for everyone but still fair.

In principle, I agree, but tournament logistics ARE a real thing.

Narrowing the break box, in my opinion, would not adversely impact the schedule. Tightening the pockets, as we saw in 2023, would ruin things unless the field size were reduced significantly, which would make the event far less profitable for Diamond.

 

[AtLarge]

If I remember correctly, which is prolly not the case, DuLuna ran a decent pack on the TV table in '18 with the triangle rack. 4.5in pockets are like ping pong balls into dumpsters for these straight shooters.

Yes, De Luna had a 5-pack against Shannon Murphy. But he missed a shot (his only error) near the end and had to settle for a .986 TPA.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Breaking news [pun intended]. Windows Open's "Derby City Recap Show" dropped with Molina Mike and Mike Panozzo, and there was a brief back-and-forth about Joshua Filler's consecutive break-and-runs:

MOLINA MIKE: I hate this notion that because it's Josh that it's low-hanging fruit to talk shit about him. You know what I mean? And it really is with some of the guys.

MIKE PANOZZO: If it's Josh, if there's one–if there's one person who doesn't have to cheat to run eight racks, it's Josh, you know.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, but he was doing something different. You could obviously tell that.

I mean, he was doing it quickly, but he was doing something different. You know, but he just figured it out before anybody else did.

But I guarantee you, had anybody else done it, had anybody else cracked that code, they would have just as well been doing that same thing. And there's like this—there's like this culture with, you know—but what's the saying, Mike? There's no—there's no honor amongst thieves, you know, because—

MIKE PANOZZO: Right.

MOLINA MIKE: —people have been gapping the balls for forever, right? You'll see that every time they're racking one pocket, trying to get that wing ball to not fly out. You'll see it in 10-ball for them to try to put the slightest gap behind the back two balls. You'll see it in 9-ball whenever they're manipulating the template.

And like I mentioned online, Americans more than anyone play this format where you're racking with the template yourself, you know?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah.

MOLINA MIKE: So, like, they ought to know more than anybody how to get it done. And you'll see that constantly whenever you're playing these regional events. You know, guys are there rubbing the balls, and they're doing this number here. They're doing it for a reason, Mike.

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah. Well, here's an interesting—while we were talking—I messaged Shane.

MOLINA MIKE: You messaged Shane? Okay. What did Shane say?

MIKE PANOZZO: I just asked him, you know, in your opinion, was Josh gapping the rack playing you? I know you were checking the rack out. Was he doing anything funny? He said, "No, it was strictly the case of the old break box."

MOLINA MIKE: Is that what he said?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yep.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, then that kind of puts it to rest right there because he had—he had front-row seats to what Josh was doing.

MIKE PANOZZO: Standing there looking at the rack. So yeah, he said it was—

MOLINA MIKE: He did it Rack 1, and he did it—I want to say at the end of the match as well. Am I wrong?

MIKE PANOZZO: Could be something like that. So yeah, it was strictly a matter of him of, you know, not having to break from the box, which I think a lot of players didn't know going into. At least Alex didn't know, and so, you know, yeah.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, that's an interesting point of view. If Shane said that to you—and I'm betting that he did, because that changes the whole perspective there, Mike, you know?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah.

SOURCE:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=631541716032788

This is the biggest BS ever, IMO. Gapping the rack!? With a magic rack, the balls are MORE DEAD then ever if every ball is frozen! Gapping the rack intentionally has got to be the dumbest thing to do.

Furthermore, all the railbirds, including Molina Mike, saying "rubbing the ball" "manipulating the ball" "feathering the ball" is cheating, etc, that is more bs. Have these guys ever racked a rack of balls in their lives? You HAVE to do that to get them TIGHT!

The quickest and most pain free way to rack a magic rack is to get the rack straight, then put the one in. Then without much regard to accuracy, simply throw the reamaining 8 balls in place. There will be a lot of gaps. Then, nudge all the corners of the rack and it will freeze them all. Its super quick, and super easy, and results in a dead tight rack!

I played in the Pennsylvania Open, a MR satellite event, that had a lot of the pro refs hired in to do the officiating and racking. 1 ref per 4 tables. I couldn't believe how they were racking. It was brutal watching them as a player. They'd put the one in, then the two balls behind it, super carefully. Do one ball at a time, making sure it was frozen, for every single ball. It was such a complete waste of time. I was thinking to myself these guys (and gals) must have never played before!

Edit: this is with the original Magic Ball Rack brand rack, and its knockoffs that have the same diamond shaped cutouts and cutout directions. The Outsville rack has the cutouts pointing the wrong way, and the balls don't lean agains each other. I have no idea why he made it that way. Makes zero sense to me.

 

[boogieman]

Though today I am a railbird, I used to play, competing on the leagues and in local tournaments., I also went on the road a few years in the '80s with a road player. As such, I really do understand all games of pocket billiards.

I made a thread on my Facebook page about Joshua Filler's 7-pack, and much to my surprise, my other half posted on my thread he thought the Magic Rack shouldn't be allowed. I asked him privately why. Well, I thought about it. Doesn't the Magic Rack create the perfect rack with no cracks? Doesn't a pool player have to break perfectly each time in order for the wing ball to fly in the side? In comparison, when pins are racked in a bowling alley, doesn't the bowler have to hit them perfeclty in order to make a strike?

Some pros today practice their breaks. I saw Earl Strickland do it over and over again at many tournaments. Shane Van Boening is also a break mechanic. The break, at least in my eyes today, is just as important as having the ability to run out. Without a good break, even if you can run out, you will never be able to dominate. The break is THAT important.

In my eyes, the only way the Magic rack cannot be perfect is if the placement is off a few millimeters on the spot. By my own admission, I've never played pool with a Magic Rack and would enjoy hearing thoughts from others who have.

View attachment 804462

I was an early adopter of magic rack. I loved it. Then it got super predictable, soft breaks making the wing, the 1 and cb in the center perfectly. It "lost it's magic" so to speak.

In all honesty it doesn't feel right. Magic rack in particular is thick enough that the balls are forcefully touching, not just frozen, but preloaded to explode with the lightest brush. Outsville template is as close as I've found to playing like an actual frozen rack and not something unnatural.

Honestly I think all events, even league night should just be rack your own with a triangle. It's a skill. Of course you may get some rack mechanics but whatever. I can rack pretty much perfectly with a triangle. If my opponent cant, then good, let them break the shit they've been leaving me for years. Honestly the best "strategy" on racking is to give a dead perfect rack with all balls frozen. Most people aren't used to that. They are used to a gap between the balls in the second row. That's not a correct rack. Just freeze them and most will break sub par.

But really after years of being a template guy I find them too predictable and kind of take a lot of randomness out of the game. I don't like breaking from them anymore, although I know how to do it from multiple spots in the kitchen. I would not play anyone for money if a template was involved. Simply rack your own with a triangle. I'd rather be cheated by the once in a blue moon rack mechanic than let those who don't even know how to break be guaranteed a wing ball every single time.

 

[decent dennis]

That thing doesn't even rack tight! At least the brand new 10 ball one I bought 2 weeks ago to practice for a tournament. The wing ball is off a huge amount, using multiple brand new ball sets.

The ones we used weren’t like the ones they had in the past. Different materials

 

[boogieman]

Edit: this is with the original Magic Ball Rack brand rack, and its knockoffs that have the same diamond shaped cutouts and cutout directions. The Outsville rack has the cutouts pointing the wrong way, and the balls don't lean agains each other. I have no idea why he made it that way. Makes zero sense to me.

With the Outsville, did you read the instructions printed on the rack? Load 8 balls, push forward then place the last ball. They don't mash into each other like a magic rack, you have to snug them up. Like actually touch/look at them to see they are frozen. I much prefer Outsville as it's the most similar to a frozen triangle rack without any kind of weird forced contact with the balls. Honestly it takes a tiny bit of practice. I'm not trying to give you hell or anything, but if you ponder the cutouts it makes sense. Also they are symmetrical so once you wear out the head ball spot you can turn it around to a pristine cutout. They don't advertise this because they are in the business of selling racks, but it's true.

Magic Rack brand template is a gaff rack, balls forced/preloaded into each other to where even your grandma could make the wing ball. Look at Corey's escapades with it. They had to make new break rules because of it. The balls aren't "frozen" they are "forced" and explode with the lightest contact. You'll also see many more roll offs with a Magic Rack because of the thickness. Outsville can cause a roll off but it's much less frequent. You can't always take templates off the table unless there's a ref or someone who can fairly spot balls.

 

[jalapus logan]

I'm a huge fan for good pool, as I'm sure we all are. I just wanna see the 30-minute match bewteen Joshua Filler and Shane Van Boening at the 2025 Derby City Classic. It's epic. Where is it? I've searched everywhere. What a shame it was not recorded. These are the matches that not only make pool fun to watch, but they are poetry in motion!

Another good one was Keith vs Parica when Keith wore the black shirt with the sparkles. I own that one on DVD, but no longer have a DVD player to watch it on, dangit.

 

[jalapus logan]

With the Outsville, did you read the instructions printed on the rack? Load 8 balls, push forward then place the last ball. They don't mash into each other like a magic rack, you have to snug them up. Like actually touch/look at them to see they are frozen. I much prefer Outsville as it's the most similar to a frozen triangle rack without any kind of weird forced contact with the balls. Honestly it takes a tiny bit of practice. I'm not trying to give you hell or anything, but if you ponder the cutouts it makes sense. Also they are symmetrical so once you wear out the head ball spot you can turn it around to a pristine cutout. They don't advertise this because they are in the business of selling racks, but it's true.

Magic Rack brand template is a gaff rack, balls forced/preloaded into each other to where even your grandma could make the wing ball. Look at Corey's escapades with it. They had to make new break rules because of it. The balls aren't "frozen" they are "forced" and explode with the lightest contact. You'll also see many more roll offs with a Magic Rack because of the thickness. Outsville can cause a roll off but it's much less frequent. You can't always take templates off the table unless there's a ref or someone who can fairly spot balls.

That's why I use the turtle rack. Also, because I like turtles.

 

[Taxi]

I'm with you on this one. Without the magic rack, people complain about rack mechanics and racking taking too long. With it, they complain that it's too easy to make a ball on the break. The thing is, this rack is available to both players so it's not like one person has some kind of wild advantage. On top of that, the breaker still has to run out. If we ever got to a point where everyone could use a magic rack and make the same ball on the break, the only real way I know to combat it would be to use alternating breaks. But then I'd bet we'd have people complaining that we don't get to see anybody put an X-pack on anybody anymore.

The magic rack adds consistency and efficiency to the game which, in my opinion, helps the better players win more often. And at it's core, that's what competition is all about.

I wouldn't mind seeing the template moved slightly askew in order to prevent the virtually automatic 1 ball and wing ball breaks that some plays have down to a science.

That said, nothing---NOTHING---is more aggravating to me than to see players fiddle and diddle with the old wooden racks for up to 5 minutes or more. Many times the racking takes longer than the game itself. It's the pool equivalent of Mike "Human Rain Delay" Hargrove in the batter's box, taking a full minute twitching around before stepping up to the plate. At least baseball has now addressed that question.

 

[misterpoole]

I only read the first post, but know how the whole thread will probably go...

Here are some points from me:

1) the magic rack makes the tournament run smoothly. No more staring at player's ass cracks for 5 minutes trying to get a good rack, which is impossible on much of our equipment. It eliminated the slug rack, the wired 9 ball, the arguments. Look at Zuglin's event for the last remnants of this.

2) the magic rack did NOT make the game too easy, even on the pro level. Josh's 7 pack was special. First, he is the BEST player in the world! Shouldn't the best player have a 7 pack on video somewhere in competition? Second, how often do we get high packages like this in modern days? Maybe once every 2-3 years by the top pros. It's not happening every match, tournament, or even year. Its not a problem.

3) The older players saying they had no arguments with the triangle is bullshit. I think they just don't remember. I saw 2 pros almost come to blows, and one was about the calmest person you could imagine, over a 9 ball that was heading towards the corner on the break.

Yes, it is special. what made this less special is that he ran multiple packs the same way that night. I watched the previous match (pagulayun?) and the 1ball and cue ball finished up table with a shot every time.

 

[Callaghan]

Folks……semantics have been argued but the answer is simple:




Apologies, I felt some levity was needed here.

 

[The Renfro]

Break Stats -- 2025 Derby City Classic 9-Ball, January 2025

Here are some aggregate break statistics from the 2025 Derby City Classic 9-Ball event played January 22-26 at Caesars Southern Indiana Hotel & Casino in Elizabeth, Indiana with pay-per-view streaming by Accu-Stats. Joshua Filler won the event...

forums.azbilliards.com

Mosconi they made the 1 89% and just for WNT is 76+% at a few..... Trickshot %s... I will pull the match 2 before the SVB match and check Filler's stats but he was under 40%, I think then that he started adding ENGLISH.. Shane checked his rack and just waved... Accu-Rack loaded properly creates the same rack a triangle will.. Speed, Spin and Hit matter... Find the right combo and you are rewarded.. Miss it and it will punish you... Otherwise the break is no longer a skill but a participation trophy event.........

 

[Mensabum]

Though today I am a railbird, I used to play, competing on the leagues and in local tournaments., I also went on the road a few years in the '80s with a road player. As such, I really do understand all games of pocket billiards.

I made a thread on my Facebook page about Joshua Filler's 7-pack, and much to my surprise, my other half posted on my thread he thought the Magic Rack shouldn't be allowed. I asked him privately why. Well, I thought about it. Doesn't the Magic Rack create the perfect rack with no cracks? Doesn't a pool player have to break perfectly each time in order for the wing ball to fly in the side? In comparison, when pins are racked in a bowling alley, doesn't the bowler have to hit them perfeclty in order to make a strike?

Some pros today practice their breaks. I saw Earl Strickland do it over and over again at many tournaments. Shane Van Boening is also a break mechanic. The break, at least in my eyes today, is just as important as having the ability to run out. Without a good break, even if you can run out, you will never be able to dominate. The break is THAT important.

In my eyes, the only way the Magic rack cannot be perfect is if the placement is off a few millimeters on the spot. By my own admission, I've never played pool with a Magic Rack and would enjoy hearing thoughts from others who have.

View attachment 804462

Imagine that!! A Classy Dame like you on the road!?! Whodathunkit!!
If your break is consistent and solid, making the wing ball off 'magic racks' seems like a 70 to 80 % certainty. Possibly higher, depending on the player and table conditions.
Just my 2¢.
Jen, Please tell bad weather I said Hey!!

 

[Mensabum]

Except it ISN'T happening.

I'm still waiting to see the first set run out not the 10,000th.

Arguably the best 9 baller ever ran a 7 pack that's it, not the set, a 7 pack. Where are all the other 7 packs, 8 packs and 9 packs? They don't exist.

When Earl ran his 11 or whatever it was with a regular rack did everybody lose their mind and say regular racks shouldn't be allowed? NO

Show me all the people running 7 packs with the template - it's been used for a lot of years and yet nobody is doing it.

Good Point.