Man charged for trading ivory

supergreenman said:
Why? Are vegetarians the only people who are allowed to think that it's wrong to poach a species to extinction?
Click to expand...

FYI, if you really want to stop elephant extinction, look into "property rights" re animals.

Here is a good start on that trip:

The recent hysteria over African elephant tusks was another problem of prices and property rights. If people were allowed to raise elephants and sell their tusks – as even the socialist government of Zimbabwe pointed out – there would be no more and no fewer elephant tusks than there should be. The same principle applies to all other resources. If left in common ownership, there will be misuse. If put in private hands, we will have the right amount: supply will meet demand.

An example of market response in the animal market was the Cayman Turtle Farm in the British West Indies. The green sea turtle was considered endangered, thanks to overharvesting due to common ownership. The farm was able to hatch eggs and bring the hatchlings to maturity at a far higher rate than in nature. Its stock grew to 80,000 green turtles. But the environmentalists hated the Cayman Turtle Farm, since in their view it is morally wrong to profit from wildlife, and they drove the farm out of business. The green turtle is again on the endangered species list.​

I asked the cow-milking question, above, as cows are held and protected BECAUSE they are private property, not held in common. There is little chance of extinction for cows, but a high chance for elephants. There is a real, specific reason for this: One is privately owned and one is publicly owned.

Jeff Livingston
 
supergreenman said:
I don't really understand peoples limited vision when it comes to consumerism. You reduce a global problem to the actions of the guy next door.

Putting the elephants aside for a second, take a look at poaching as a whole. Who's doing it? The guy next door isn't, the guy he gave $1500 for a ivory inlaid cue isn't doing it either. The Cue maker didn't go out and shoot an elephant, he bought it from a dealer, who bought it from a smuggler, who bought it from the poacher.

The last 3 people in this chain of events are not nice people by any means. they represent the lowest of society as part of organized crime syndicates.

These people are, metephorically speaking, murdering people with a ivory inlaid pool cue.

They murder the wildlife rangers that are trying to protect the animals, they intimidate and exploit the local population who have very little and are more worried about putting food on thier table than they are about the elephants that live in the surrounding areas.

If you think the only harm that comes from a bit of ivory in your cue is that an elephant had to die, you're terribly mistaken.
Click to expand...

This is a great explanation of why a fundamentally flawed system (social ownership) does its dirty deeds with the help of good persons. The only soution is to not jail the bad folks but to fix the bad system. Then good folks can do good, not bad, to get what they want.

Jeff Livingston
 
BryanBpool said:
For Several Reasons:

  • Elephant gestations time is nearly two years.
  • It takes two to four years until they can have another calf.
  • They only have a single baby.
  • Elephants do not grow their adult tusks till after year one.
  • Tusks grow at a rate of 7in per year. It would take several years before they could be harvested.

Needless to say, it would be cost prohibitive.
Click to expand...

Not prohibitive, but would reflect the actual costs in the price of ivory on the open market.

It's a market....let it be a market....just like milk.

Jeff Livingston
 
RafaReyes said:
No one is above the law.

The rule of law is fundamental to the western democratic order. Aristotle said more than two thousand years ago, "The rule of law is better than that of any individual."

"The King himself ought not to be subject to man, but subject to God and the law, because the law makes him King".

Respect the law even if you don't like it or agree with it.

The rule of law is a foundation for both our liberties and for order.

The ivory business is bringing the elephants to extinction. Which as a result will affect the balance of nature and ecosystem at the area where they exist.

Just because you like how it looks in your pool cue, there's no other reason why people who reads this forum should be interested on ivory. The damage is far greater than the benefit. No one is to blame either because those who are after ivory do not know the consequences of their actions and that's why they continue with their practice.

As always education in this manner is what everyone needs.
Click to expand...

There can be no just rule of law without property rights.

Jeff Livingston
 
Craig Fales said:
You could manage elephants the way you do with tree harvesting. You have year crops, every year there is a mature set of elephants to harvest. Provided the amount of births match the harvest. I don't know how well that would work and don't feel like researching it. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

You nor anyone here has to know all of that. Only those in the elephant farming and commodity businesses would know those details.

Just like pool cues.

Compare the differences between house cues (public) and personal (private) cues. Which ones are in better shape? Which ones are better taken care of? Which ones are peacefully traded for other stuff? Which ones have consistent quality for play, better designs, better performance, etc.?

Jeff Livingston
 
you are close

no you don't but nikes a billion dollar company they can buy their way out of that....Joe Barringer may as well be a street rat compared to them no disrespect to joe lol.




no disrespect to the street rat
 
It's not rape or murder, but if he had 197 lbs of ivory and 24 elephant tusk tips in his house, it's not a small deal.
 
He is a dealer in legal ivory

GADawg said:
It's not rape or murder, but if he had 197 lbs of ivory and 24 elephant tusk tips in his house, it's not a small deal.
Click to expand...

Joe is a dealer in legal ivory, has been for years. He advertises as a buyer and seller. Like most comparatively rare items I'm sure word gets out you are seeking ivory and after awhile it gets much easier to locate or people come to you with it. As I suspected the fed's didn't find a speck of illegal ivory in Joe's possession or at least that is what I have now heard from a very good source.

The fed's got headlines and Joe's still in business without a major blot on his record. I suspect both sides are pretty happy. Like me after I got hammered on the paperwork mistake, I'm sure Joe will forever more be very careful with paperwork and he is still selling well aged legal ivory at a great price for those that use it as well as nice wood and other quality components.(All of this publicity, might as well sneak in a plug for Cue Components :grin: )

Hu
 
Craig Fales said:
You could manage elephants the way you do with tree harvesting. You have year crops, every year there is a mature set of elephants to harvest. Provided the amount of births match the harvest. I don't know how well that would work and don't feel like researching it. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Do you know how much an elephant eats? Zoos have a hard time feeding 1 or 2 of them.

To have a farm like you say would cost way more than you would get from the ivory.
 
ive shot 14 elephants, they are not in short supply in MOst of Arfica, I have lots of tusks, not 28 becuase they didnt all have tuskes or for other reasons, some were shop as PAC (Problem Animal control) elephants others were sport hunted in accordinance with C.I.T.I.E.S and I am in legal possession of the ivory-it has a serial number etched on the back of the tusk its weight etc and I have to coresponding paper work.

Heres where the problem is, how do you check ivory after the tusk has ben chopped into a zillion pieces against the C.I.T.I.E.S Permit? you cant. Only whole tusks. the Tips are whats used mostly in cuemaking and the serial number is lower down on the tusk, so there is no plan there.

The poachers are looking for rhino but will settle for elepants if they cant find rhino fast enough. In Zimbabwe they are deemed to be "Armed Poachers" and lethal force is legal in the bush upon sight, they shot 3 of them 5 days after I left once we were following their tracks and knew we had 3 guys-I missed all the fun, damnit. A anti-poaching squad came into Matesi unit 5 and smoked all 3 of them at around 8pm when It was just dark. Meat or snare poachers it is illegal to shoot them as they are hunting for food, its easy to tell the difference, when hunting snare poachers, you see snare lines to catch game all over and will find where they are racking their meat (they dry it out before carring it miles on foot back to town to sell it) Armed poachers never use snares.

Back to the ivory thing, it will blow over. The chinese awalys buy Bob's ivory he is the president of Zim, other countries have huge wearhouses of it. Some countries dont really care and let its citizens bring in Cities'a hunted ivory from every country, others like america dont, Mozambique has the best ivory hunting in the world but as amercans wwe cant bring ivory in from there, if we shoot a elepant there the ivory stays behind and you get sa casting of your tusks, however if you live in Dubai You can bring it in. I know this from first hand accounts(unless it changed over the past 4 years)

I have sat in on some of the rules meetings for this stuff, SCI Safari Club International works with cities, the different govt's and sets the rules each year for the up comming seasons. It works for the most part.

But again the ivory thing will blow over, and i'd bet 80% of the ivory in cues is pre-ban it has to be that old or it cracks up. It needs time to age, season. 10 years minimun, 20 is ideal. 30 is even better.
 
Scott Lee said:
Not only is Neil correct, but the amount of legal ivory already in this country is more than will ever be filled in the custom cue market.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

thats a true fact, custom cues dont use alot of ivory, in storage in LA I have over 50 ivory statues hand carves and scrimshawed. Beatiful works of art. Each on of then could be chopped up and have enough ivory for a pile of cues. It wouldnt be a bright move as the statues are worth more than the weight of the ivory. I keep them in a climate controlled storage I have there. I wish I could set them up in my Vegas house but some the ivory is to new, I did one time with one and i had a million cracks in it, i took it back to LA and in 6 months all the cracks were filled in, its hte humidity. I have some very old ones that I know wouldnt crack but I dont have the security here anyways. Someday I will get to see them all. I bought them from a estate sale in Beverly Hills many years ago. I love ivory-except when being chased by a elephant(happened 2 times).
 
Quesports said:
Just some more info that I saw on another forum regarding this issue, http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1010/101028orlando.htm

No matter what ultimately happens to Mr Barringer this incident may well be a wake up call to find a suitable manmade substitute for ivory. It also makes me wonder about the usage of real elephant ear wraps given the fact that they are considered an endangered species.
Click to expand...


thehy are only endangered in a very few spots in Africa-war torn countries. and they are in Asia. They say every animal is endangered-its the big scam thats been going on for years. Some areas of africa we cull elephants there are so many(its not feesable to move them). Go spend some time in Africa I'll bet you love it and you'll get a first hand account how things really are. what you and I see on TV here isnt whats really going on in africa(I dont know about the Congo with all its wars etc)
 
that's why I like to use mastodon .... you can't kill them into extinction....

I rarely use elephant....

I use fossilized walrus....
you know your not killing anything.

Hippos tusk......
because not to many people would want to smuggle that.....
for a small amount?
And I buy from a very respectable place..

hogs..... they are here in the US we hunt them....
I keep the tusks......

Rhino...not to sure I would want to be part of it....

elephant? I try to avoid it....that's why I always make the customer buy it...I don't ... I will not buy Ivory...use them if given but I wont buy it...
once I get some customers to buy it some back off cause they don't want to spend that kind of cash up front.

My Favorite.....
Narwhale....the best, even on cues.... I have a few full pieces
I know where t came from....I know it was not bought....
I've got pictures from where it was harvested in 1929...
and I have them because I inherited them....

Good luck buying them from anyone else.....unless you want to pay almost 10x the amount elephant ivory is being sold for.....


Disclaimer......this is my thoughts on ivory.
I dont care what anyone else thinks.
I do not like poaching.
I do not want anything illegal to be on my cues, knives, guns, swords, tables, my drawing and carving material, furniture i make, even my house I am currently planning to built here soon(when I am all well and good).
(Japanese style old house, you know with all the slidding doora and windows.....and like 80% wood.)
so I hope I dont catch $h!t for anything I wrote.

Marshall Piercy
 
Nothing to do with the legality but if you clip part of a tusk off does it grow back.If so they should do this with animals in captivity esp.. Clip part of one tusk let it grow back then clip the other one.Put enough legall Ivory out to make it usless to poach.Ive personaly seen elephants kill by poachers.They chainsaw the tusks out and the feet off.Im a hunter but this is toataly disgusting and disturbing.I have ivory in my cue and like ivory ferrules and I certainly hope it was aquired legaly.
 
I am very pleased this has come to light.
the laws of the land are made for a reason.
he knew exactly what he was doing was illegal.
perhaps he can carry on his business in prison.
put him in a cell with Baba :grin:
 
Last edited:
fcee06 said:
Wow it amazes me when people like to get on their high horses about a particular subject, but also fail to see some of the bigger pictures that are excepted practices as well. All I will say is if you own a cell phone or computer, you might want to turn those in as well because there is a natural mineral mined in Africa that ten of thousands of people, humans are being killed for that mineral. This is happening right now as we speak. I know this is a little off the stimulating ivory discussion, but it speaks to the point of if your going to take a stance like this on whats right and wrong then stand up for all that is right and wrong. Dont just get on your soap box and thump people on the head with the moral and legal argument about things that you happen to not be involved in, but yet turn blind eye and are benefitting from others sufferings to bring us our way of life. That would make us the worst of all, a hypocrite!! Just my humble opinion.

FC
Click to expand...

Tap, tap...

Best post I've seen in a while.

Dale
 
supergreenman said:
Do you know how much an elephant eats? Zoos have a hard time feeding 1 or 2 of them.

To have a farm like you say would cost way more than you would get from the ivory.
Click to expand...

You guys are taling about economic MARKETS, not impossible dreams. May I suggest:

Hazlitt.

It's free and only takes about an hour to read and will forever keep the reader from making false economic assumptions that create massive mistakes in personal finance.

Jeff Livingston
 
h2o4170 said:
Nothing to do with the legality but if you clip part of a tusk off does it grow back.If so they should do this with animals in captivity esp.. Clip part of one tusk let it grow back then clip the other one.Put enough legall Ivory out to make it usless to poach.Ive personaly seen elephants kill by poachers.They chainsaw the tusks out and the feet off.Im a hunter but this is toataly disgusting and disturbing.I have ivory in my cue and like ivory ferrules and I certainly hope it was aquired legaly.
Click to expand...

That's why as a vegitarian on moral grounds, I only eat chicken wings and frog legs and lamb chops amd pig's feet....you don't have to kill the animal.:grin-square:

Jeff Livingston
 
monsebo said:
I am very pleased this has come to light.
the laws of the land are made for a reason.
he knew exactly what he was doing was illegal.
perhaps he can carry on his business in prison.
put him in a cell with Baba :grin:
Click to expand...

Do you know the REAL reason for those "laws?"

A closer examonation might change your view on Baba, et al.

Jeff Livingston
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top