mark up on pool products

[whammo57]

You might want to read this. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1591395267/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1428537893&sr=8-2&keywords=market+share#

Manage for Profit not Market Share a guide to greater profits I a highly contested market


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manage for profit.....???? with out a substantial market share..... you don't have a profit...

a quote from the book..................

In Manage for Profit, Not for Share, the authors contend that companies can extract a profit potential of 1%-3 % of revenue by pursuing a profit, rather than a market share, orientation. Based on their extensive consulting work, the authors lay out a practical, proven program for making significantly more money by reconfiguring the marketing mix to sell existing products and services in different ways. The book offers practical strategies managers can use to differentiate mature products, raise prices effectively, time promotional activities properly, better understand consumer preferences, and more.


Really ???? a profit of 1 to 3 percent???? I would put my money under the mattress before I would risk it for 1 to 3 percent..............

not buying the book


Kim

 

[LGSM3]

that's an additional 1-3% which for a company that does 100 million in sales it would increase there bottom line by as much as 3 million. That would be significant for a company that nets 10 million to start with

 

[WilleeCue]

You can have an opinion but why voice it publicly?
Nobody outside you needs to know your profits and costs. Let the customer decide if the price is too high with their wallets

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Shall we silence the OP and ban public opinions?
Is that what you are for?

Kim is not the only one that thinks there is a bit of price gouging on pool cue tips.
Other dealers have posted here about what they felt were unfair pricing and sales tactics.
How can 5th street make a five layer tip and sell it for less than $2 while some others make tips that sell for $25?
Is the material or labor cost that much more or is the maker just wanting to make huge profits?

In this country (USA) we still have choice and we can vote with our money.
I have never spent more than a few dollars on a pool cue tip.
If I ever get to the level of skill that a $20 tip can make a difference in my game I might reconsider.

Most players are in this same boat ... C and D rated league players paying $35 for a pool cue tip that is supposed to improve their game.
Do you think it really does?

I see the point Kim is making and it is not against people repairing cues and making a profit doing it.

 

[qbilder]

that's an additional 1-3% which for a company that does 100 million in sales it would increase there bottom line by as much as 3 million. That would be significant for a company that nets 10 million to start with

But that won't fit under your mattress :thumbup:

 

[scdiveteam]

Shall we silence the OP and ban public opinions?
Is that what you are for?

Kim is not the only one that thinks there is a bit of price gouging on pool cue tips.
Other dealers have posted here about what they felt were unfair pricing and sales tactics.
How can 5th street make a five layer tip and sell it for less than $2 while some others make tips that sell for $25?
Is the material or labor cost that much more or is the maker just wanting to make huge profits?

In this country (USA) we still have choice and we can vote with our money.
I have never spent more than a few dollars on a pool cue tip.
If I ever get to the level of skill that a $20 tip can make a difference in my game I might reconsider.

Most players are in this same boat ... C and D rated league players paying $35 for a pool cue tip that is supposed to improve their game.
Do you think it really does?

I see the point Kim is making and it is not against people repairing cues and making a profit doing it.

That's how I see it too Willie.

It don't bother me that someone charges a lot for a tip, I just won't get in the mix concerning these tips and my business.

Rick

 

[qbilder]

How can 5th street make a five layer tip and sell it for less than $2 while some others make tips that sell for $25?
Is the material or labor cost that much more or is the maker just wanting to make huge profits?

Cue maker Bob makes a seemingly identical cue as maker Bill. Bob charges $300, whereas Bill charges $3000. To the naked eye, the cues look to be very similar. No doubt Bob feels he put in as much work & time as Bill, and that he knows as much and/or is as skilled as Bill. So why aren't people paying him the same $3K? Is Bill raping the buyers, playing them for fools, or could it be that his cue really is that much better & the buyers know it? Bob can be in denial til the cows come home & will make no difference. He will always complain about the price gap & blame Bill for being a crook and the buyers for being stupid. Nobody pays any attention to his antics, just like they don't pay any money for his work.

Most players are in this same boat ... C and D rated league players paying $35 for a pool cue tip that is supposed to improve their game.
Do you think it really does?

Again, who's to say? If I install a $20 tip & my game goes up a ball, for whatever reason, then isn't it worth the money? Whether the tip is actually better, or it's my mind finding more confidence in it, it makes me play better and is worth every penny. Why is it anybody's business to judge any others' motives or practices? Do you think that by somehow degrading or bringing to question the legitimacy of expensive tips, that they'll somehow suffer for it or that the price will drop? Who's to say it's price gouging?

Why can't we just live & let live? The market will weed out & separate the cream from the crap, naturally. Marketing works......for a while. Hype works.....for a while. No doubt it is expected and necessary to have skepticism of new products, but at what point is it decided that they are actually worth what people are paying? A year, two years, a decade? If the market doesn't weed them out, but instead boosts them to a sustained top, then you can bet there's a solid reason that goes far beyond hype & advertising. That reason is simply that it's a better product than the competition, and the best is worth paying for. Whether you personally agree with it or not, it's the facts of a free market. Natural selection at it's core.

 

[JoeyInCali]

That's how I see it too Willie.

It don't bother me that someone charges a lot for a tip, I just won't get in the mix concerning these tips and my business.

Rick

Or why pay for a custom cue when you can get a production cue ?
Why pay for a $45 each inlay ?

 

[scdiveteam]

Or why pay for a custom cue when you can get a production cue ?
Why pay for a $45 each inlay ?

Or buy into the Lakewood stuff. Mysticism captures those who wish to buy into the collective. Hey if it makes them feel good, who am I or anyone else to disagree.

 

[qbilder]

Or buy into the Lakewood BS.

Who says it's BS? You? Or somebody who has actually studied the wood in large sample, compared against typical maple, with an unbiased agenda? You dismiss it as mysticism, but there's real science behind it if you care to investigate. Agree with it or not, the science is real.

This is the point I was trying to make in my last post. Folks come to conclusions that don't seem to make sense. Sure it makes sense on the first glance, but with a little thought & research, things become more clear. Kamui tips are great tips. They remain popular for one reason, and that's because they are better than their competitors. Just because a cue maker doesn't like paying for them, doesn't mean the price isn't fair. Lots of buyers don't like the price of my cues, so they don't buy. Rather than just move along, they attempt justifying their cheapness by claiming my cues are only hype BS, and that they can get just as good a cue for a lot cheaper. It doesn't bother me, nor does it make any difference in the market for my cues. But why do they have to say it? If they're too cheap to buy, then just move on. Attempting to de-legitimize my product doesn't make them less of a cheap skate. The negativity has no basis.

 

[LGSM3]

the problem here is that nobody really knows the true cost of doing business for these so called price gougers. We've only been given speculative information about their cost of goods and folks assume the difference is the net.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Tip replacement prices

I charge 20$ to install anything,
Actually I don't have a service under 20$
Profit shouldn't be a dirty word,
I charge 45.00 for kamui installed which only gives me 5$ of gravy on top of a le pro install, it is a premium product and price to the end user should reflect that.
I just wish we had a better margin on them.
I basically only stock,
Kamui
Ultra
Taom
Samsara
I think this is all anybody really needs, and the kamui and taom are both premium prices

I do about 600 bar cues a year at 6 bucks per cue.
Will repair 200 cue's at one time,
I set 2 cue lathes and by next week I will have 3 cues lathes on line .
I can knock out 40 cue per hour.

I have about 50 used bar cues in stock and I just trade out the cues .

I paid for my first cue lathe or total investment in the first 3 weeks of owning a lathe.

Bar cues are the best cues to learn on impossible to destroy.

I wouldn't want to loose that income , every penny helps.

I charge 40.00 bucks to install a kamui tip

 

[scdiveteam]

Who says it's BS? You? Or somebody who has actually studied the wood in large sample, compared against typical maple, with an unbiased agenda? You dismiss it as mysticism, but there's real science behind it if you care to investigate. Agree with it or not, the science is real.

This is the point I was trying to make in my last post. Folks come to conclusions that don't seem to make sense. Sure it makes sense on the first glance, but with a little thought & research, things become more clear. Kamui tips are great tips. They remain popular for one reason, and that's because they are better than their competitors. Just because a cue maker doesn't like paying for them, doesn't mean the price isn't fair. Lots of buyers don't like the price of my cues, so they don't buy. Rather than just move along, they attempt justifying their cheapness by claiming my cues are only hype BS, and that they can get just as good a cue for a lot cheaper. It doesn't bother me, nor does it make any difference in the market for my cues. But why do they have to say it? If they're too cheap to buy, then just move on. Attempting to de-legitimize my product doesn't make them less of a cheap skate. The negativity has no basis.

Eric,

When I was a kid, I have dove on wooden schooner wrecks in Lake Michigan in very deep water where the timbers and deck planks appear to be in perfect condition 100 years after the sinking.

So wood is definitely preserved in cold deep water. I don't understand how Lakewood is better than other maple once it is dried to 6%. Is there some science behind that.

It does cost more to harvest it because of the salvage operation cost. If the wisdom is that it is any better than culled dense maple please tell me why it is any better.

My friend Troy bought 10 expensive Lakewood blanks and we tapered them over a six month time frame. When they were made into playing shafts we could not feel or see any difference when compared to my high density brownish shaft wood from Iron Mt Michigan. The weight of the 13mm shafts with the same geometry was about the same give or take a hair and fluctuated randomly.

Some people who sell Lakewood blanks charge a ton of money for the product. What is the benefit and what is the difference in cost.

That is my point. If it cost more to harvest it because it is underwater, I get that but if it is not a huge noticeable difference to cue performance then WTF.

I should not have said BS in my post and I edited it but you quoted me pretty fast. I did not read your post until I edited the BS out of my statement.

There are a lot of people who paid a ton of dough for a 30" piece of maple and I am sorry that I believe that they paid way too much in my opinion.

I know some people that salvaged logs every year and i can tell you not all were in deep water. So when you buy that stuff you have no documentation only someone's claim concerning prominence.

Rick

PS:

Here is a quote I found when researching:

Terry Mace, a wood specialist for the state forestry department, said that, more than anything else, Water-Logged Lumber sold mystique. ''People feel good about holding something that is that old, that harkens back to history,'' Mr. Mace said.

The wood on this wreck in +200 feet of water is very preserved in very cold fresh water. Is the wood any better?

 

[JoeyInCali]

Eric,

When I was a kid, I have dove on wooden schooner wrecks in Lake Michigan in very deep water where the timbers and deck planks appear to be in perfect condition 100 years after the sinking.

So wood is definitely preserved in cold deep water. I don't understand how Lakewood is better than other maple once it is dried to 6%. Is there some science behind that.

It does cost more to harvest it because of the salvage operation cost. If the wisdom is that it is any better than culled dense maple please tell me why it is any better.

My friend Troy bought 10 expensive Lakewood blanks and we tapered them over a six month time frame. When they were made into playing shafts we could not feel or see any difference when compared to my high density brownish shaft wood from Iron Mt Michigan. The weight of the 13mm shafts with the same geometry was about the same give or take a hair and fluctuated randomly.

Some people who sell Lakewood blanks charge a ton of money for the product. What is the benefit and what is the difference in cost.

That is my point. If it cost more to harvest it because it is underwater, I get that but if it is not a huge noticeable difference to cue performance then WTF.

I should not have said BS in my post and I edited it but you quoted me pretty fast. I did not read your post until I edited the BS out of my statement.

There are a lot of people who paid a ton of dough for a 30" piece of maple and I am sorry that I believe that they paid way too much in my opinion.

I know some people that salvaged logs every year and i can tell you not all were in deep water. So when you buy that stuff you have no documentation only someone's claim concerning prominence.

Rick

PS:

Here is a quote I found when researching:

Terry Mace, a wood specialist for the state forestry department, said that, more than anything else, Water-Logged Lumber sold mystique. ''People feel good about holding something that is that old, that harkens back to history,'' Mr. Mace said.

The wood on this wreck in +200 feet of water is very preserved in very cold fresh water. Is the wood any better?

I have one sycamore og shaft. It weighs 4 oz . That's a Sycamore .
The OG lake salvaged maples I've seen are actually too stiff for shafts imo.
I'd pay for coring dowels at 5 times the price of UP Mich. maple dowels.
If they are what I saw.
That article did not consider the age of the logs when they were cut.

 

[scdiveteam]

I have one sycamore og shaft. It weighs 4 oz . That's a Sycamore .
The OG lake salvaged maples I've seen are actually too stiff for shafts imo.
I'd pay for coring dowels at 5 times the price of UP Mich. maple dowels.
If they are what I saw.
That article did not consider the age of the logs when they were cut.

Have you tried Jatoba, it is pretty stiff and not so expensive.

The article actually explained that old growth forests in Wisconsin were pretty much gone by 1870s.

A lot of logs are salvaged from rivers also. The ones in deep lake waters cost the most to salvage. My friend has a side scan sonar and he marks targets in deep water in the spring before the thermalcline is established. You can see the logs on the plotter paper. He makes furniture from wood he salvages.

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Have you tried Jatoba, it is pretty stiff and not so expensive.

The article actually explained that old growth forests in Wisconsin were pretty much gone by 1870s.

A lot of logs are salvaged from rivers also. The ones in deep lake waters cost the most to salvage. My friend has a side scan sonar and he marks targets in deep water in the spring before the thermalcline is established. You can see the logs on the plotter paper. He makes furniture from wood he salvages.

Rick

There are plenty of woods that are stiff and heavy . Plenty.
And cheap too.

I don't know what woods you saw from those salvaged ones .
The ones I've seen were insanely heavy, figured and pingy.
Two things work for dense maple as cores too.
The dust is not nearly as toxic as so many exotics.
They glue real well.

 

[Joe Barringer]

The submerged shafts are lackluster and have little feedback; they're dead. Of course that's my opinion and the opinion of many others but hey, what do we know.

 

[Kim Bye]

The submerged shafts are lackluster and have little feedback; they're dead. Of course that's my opinion and the opinion of many others but hey, what do we know.

I read about those lake salvaged shafts, but never tried one. Is is just that the wood is old or is there any science behind why submerging wood for a long time suposedly makes it great for cue shafts?

 

[Joe Barringer]

I read about those lake salvaged shafts, but never tried one. Is is just that the wood is old or is there any science behind why submerging wood for a long time suposedly makes it great for cue shafts?

That's just it, it does not make it great for shafts. The wood has no life to it. It's a dead feel. But then again, I could be wrong as I'm sure there are 'experts' with differing opinions.

 

[qbilder]

The lake wood comes from trees that sank when being floated. The logs were transported to mills via floating in the lake, and also stored until ready to mill by leaving them float. Some of the more dense logs sank. What happened to them is ass backwards from what happens to wood that dries above surface. As wood dries, the cells which are full of moisture collapse, hence the shrinking. With lake wood, the cells do not collapse, because the moisture never evaporates. Rather the sap/water based moisture is exchanged through the years with mineral rich lake water, with very low oxygen or decomposing bacteria to degrade it. When the wood is retrieved, milled, and dried, the cell walls do not collapse as they would with typical wood. The mineral content prevents it. In short, the wood is basically mineral reinforced/stabilized, not totally unlike how we stabilize woods with resin under vacuum. That's the nuts & bolts of it, in a very condensed summary. Anybody can read up on the science to get the whole story. Lake wood is different than typical wood, at a molecular level.

As for if it's better or not, who knows? I suppose that's for each person to decide. In terms of shaft maple, the spectrum is already so broad with typical wood. No doubt lake wood will have an equally broad spectrum. I'm cutting shafts right now from two different tracts of property, cut within days of one another. The logs were all milled & dried together. Wood from tract "A" is giving me 4.4-4.8oz finish size shafts. Wood from tract "B" is giving me 3.3-4.0oz finish size shafts. Same exact species, two forest tracts about 20 miles apart, but totally different wood. The only difference I know of is that the "A" tract has a significantly higher iron content in the soil.

And for old growth forests in WI being gone, that's completely false. The Behnke dairy farm in Wapaca, just minutes from the Wolf River Lumber Co. in New London, has two virgin growth tracts of wooded property. The family cleared land surrounding the tracts for farming, and left the woods for hunting. Nobody has been allowed to cut nor cultivate those tracts, ever. That's one of thousands of farms dotted across that state, many with similar layout. Granted there may not be any multi-thousand acre forests that are virgin growth, but there are at least hundreds or thousands of virgin patches. The bigger tract on the Behnke farm is a couple hundred acres, IIRC. They call me when a storm brings down one of the giants. The last one was so large that I had to chainsaw slab the sides just to get the log onto my mill, which cuts through the center of a 3' log. The wood was caramel brown & dense, though the growth rate wasn't what one would think with old growth. In fact, most old growth trees I cut have broad grain. The only time I get tight grain is with small, understory maples, and they don't get big, only old. I'll be visiting the farm in June, then Ohio in July. Both places have old growth trees that have fallen in spring storms, and I will be there to retrieve them.

 

[qbilder]

Here's 4 shafts. The left is a normal maple shaft, white, clean, typical weight. The next is old growth from Ohio, and is mud colored, though it seems washed out in the pic. It weighs considerably more. The caramel shaft is old growth from WI, and weighs a typical 4oz. The far right shaft is lake wood, and same color but darker shade than the Ohio old growth. I haven't weighed it but it's in the 4oz neighborhood. Even though it's lake wood, it's not the same lake wood folks think about. Wes Hunter & I were in UP MI gathering wood and stumbled across a saw-miller who had this wood left over from a contract. He was contracted to mill logs that were being pulled from the mud in the bottom of glacial lakes, and he saved a few boards, one of which he gave to me. The tree allegedly was plowed under by an ice age glacier, and remained in the mud under a natural lake until it was pulled out in 2006. I have no provenance of the story, but have no reason to believe he would lie. And unquestionably, there's something very different about that maple. The shafts average 30-50 gpi, which indicate the tree grew in very cold, very short seasons that we haven't seen on the planet in modern history. Ice age or not? I don't really know. But the story and evidence jive.

Point being, old growth forests still remain in WI & elsewhere, and shaft maple can vary tremendously across a huge spectrum.