Min. and Max. diameter of a-joint tenon
- Thread starter masonh
- Start date
I use 1", =/- for fine tuning. No such thing as too long so long as the accuracy is high. Too short blends right on into not having a tenon at all, which is also not terrible if done correctly. A flat face shaft to butt joint has no tenon, and it's strong enough to play with, without buzz's or rattles. To each his own. Nothing right if it's doesn't work. Nothing is wrong if it does work.
I use 1" x .625"...JER
dave sutton
Banned
i started with .750 x.750.
later i flirted with .625x.625 because i was concerned about strength in my pointed cues.
now i went back to .750x.750
can you feel a noticeable difference in a longer 1'' tenon? any concern with pointed cues popping with that big of a tenon
later i flirted with .625x.625 because i was concerned about strength in my pointed cues.
now i went back to .750x.750
can you feel a noticeable difference in a longer 1'' tenon? any concern with pointed cues popping with that big of a tenon
Last edited:
dave sutton said:
Whenever I join the handle to the forearm (with or without points), I slide a hose clamp down to within 1/4" from the large end of the forearm. Then tighten it down. This keeps the forearm from splitting, when the 2 pieces are joined & it's still far enough away from the glue to cause a problem. I've never heard of anyone else doing this , but I'm sure I'll see it on hear in the future as someone elses idea. OH WELL, I like to share...JER
I never understood why anyone would want a bolt inside a spliced forearm.qbilder said:
To me that's like wedging it.
Reading this thread as a non-cuemaker brings home to me just how complicated making a quality cue can be.
Meuccis sometimes get loose in the grip area. Is that due to poor design, or bad glue, or simply poor workmanship?
I have a Meucci that feels a bit loose under the grip. Actually, loose isn't the right word. Flexible might be better. Can't say as I like it. It wasn't like that when I bought it new.
On the other hand, every full-splice cue I've ever had (currently have four) always felt really solid, and never got loose or felt flexible in the splice area, and I'm talking some really cheap sneakies in the $30 range.
What do you all do to ensure your A-jointed cues and other cues that are complex in design will withstand the inevitable bumps and jolts and occasional droppings that will occur?
Is epoxy or some other glue or adhesive the key? And how does a cue buyer know what to look for in a cue that hopefully will withstand the tests of time?
Thanks.
Flex
Meuccis sometimes get loose in the grip area. Is that due to poor design, or bad glue, or simply poor workmanship?
I have a Meucci that feels a bit loose under the grip. Actually, loose isn't the right word. Flexible might be better. Can't say as I like it. It wasn't like that when I bought it new.
On the other hand, every full-splice cue I've ever had (currently have four) always felt really solid, and never got loose or felt flexible in the splice area, and I'm talking some really cheap sneakies in the $30 range.
What do you all do to ensure your A-jointed cues and other cues that are complex in design will withstand the inevitable bumps and jolts and occasional droppings that will occur?
Is epoxy or some other glue or adhesive the key? And how does a cue buyer know what to look for in a cue that hopefully will withstand the tests of time?
Thanks.
Flex
I prefer the tenon on the forearm, but don't always do them that way. I almost always make them .750, but occasionally have done them smaller. I've also done tenons on both the handle and forearm, with a phenolic sleeve.
I've repaired some cues that had no tenon at all, and were made by well known makers.
With the importance that some place on tenons and such at the A-joint, one would think that a break/jump cue (GASP!! NO TENON!!) would self-destruct!
I've repaired some cues that had no tenon at all, and were made by well known makers.
With the importance that some place on tenons and such at the A-joint, one would think that a break/jump cue (GASP!! NO TENON!!) would self-destruct!
qbilder said:
I used to move my tenon back and forth between handle and prong depending on what type of wood was being used in the prong, for better balance. The A-joint is the weakest and most problamatic area in a cues design, as far as I'm concerned. The predominate way that most custom cues are built are with tenon and mortise construction with a stud, adding strength and pulling all together. I have found that almost every cue that I've ever been asked to repair has had the tenon cant and crack the female mortise area. Wood, consists of numerous strands of cellulose all running in the same direction. Wood is very strong as far as tensile and compression strength but it certainly lacks strength as far as grain splitting apart. It doesn't take much leverage, by the tenon, to cause this splitting in the wood. Cues aren't supposed to be used in a way that this would occur but once in the field, things happen.
I always used a .750 tenon going into the same size bored hole. This always worried me as the diameter of the cue, at the bored hole. is usually less than an inch or so. This doesn't leave much wood on each side of the tenon for strength.
I now have done away with the tenon going into the wood, in either direction, by putting a tenon on both the handle and the prong and using a linen phenolic cylinder instead. The phenolic is much stronger than wood for this purpose. At present I make the sleeve 1.5" so that the tenons are .750 in length. The handle feels very stable with this configuration but I'm still considering going to a 2 " cylinder so that the tenons would then be an inch each. I bore the cylinder to around .650. I make my tenon on the prong .750, install my deco-rings and then turn down the tenon so that the cylinder is a nice fit and then I glue into place and drill and tap for the stud. I then rebore the cylinder to around .025 larger down to the prongs tenon. This cleans out the glue run off and ensures that the tenons bore is back to 100% true and then face for a perfect 90 deg. I then mount my handle and turn a tenon to perfectly fit the cylinders bore on the prong. I then drill and tap the handle and glue up. Doing this with a center rest insures that the prong will turn true and makes for a very sound, strong and solid fit.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Dick
Full spliced butts are virtually solid wood, no joint. Of course there is a joint, but nothing that can be compared to an "A" joint.
The "A" joint will hold up if done correctly, and there's infinite ways to do it correctly. Sloppiness will fail. Glues today are far superior to times past, even stronger than the wood. But construction quality is the key. As for knowing how to choose a cue, you virtually have no clue what's inside. Go by reputation. Do your homework before buying. No builder is going to spend considerable time in developing a joint, and go through the pains of executing it accurately, only to sell it cheap. It's easy to toss a cue together that will be solid for a while, and can be done fast & cheap. It's also easy to take your time, use high grade materials & adhesives & do a clean, accurate job, but won't be cheap. It's not rocket science, just a matter of integrity & attention to detail. Some have it, some don't, & reputation will give you the first hints of who is who.
The "A" joint will hold up if done correctly, and there's infinite ways to do it correctly. Sloppiness will fail. Glues today are far superior to times past, even stronger than the wood. But construction quality is the key. As for knowing how to choose a cue, you virtually have no clue what's inside. Go by reputation. Do your homework before buying. No builder is going to spend considerable time in developing a joint, and go through the pains of executing it accurately, only to sell it cheap. It's easy to toss a cue together that will be solid for a while, and can be done fast & cheap. It's also easy to take your time, use high grade materials & adhesives & do a clean, accurate job, but won't be cheap. It's not rocket science, just a matter of integrity & attention to detail. Some have it, some don't, & reputation will give you the first hints of who is who.
rhncue said:I used to move my tenon back and forth between handle and prong depending on what type of wood was being used in the prong, for better balance. The A-joint is the weakest and most problamatic area in a cues design, as far as I'm concerned. The predominate way that most custom cues are built are with tenon and mortise construction with a stud, adding strength and pulling all together. I have found that almost every cue that I've ever been asked to repair has had the tenon cant and crack the female mortise area. Wood, consists of numerous strands of cellulose all running in the same direction. Wood is very strong as far as tensile and compression strength but it certainly lacks strength as far as grain splitting apart. It doesn't take much leverage, by the tenon, to cause this splitting in the wood. Cues aren't supposed to be used in a way that this would occur but once in the field, things happen.
I always used a .750 tenon going into the same size bored hole. This always worried me as the diameter of the cue, at the bored hole. is usually less than an inch or so. This doesn't leave much wood on each side of the tenon for strength.
I now have done away with the tenon going into the wood, in either direction, by putting a tenon on both the handle and the prong and using a linen phenolic cylinder instead. The phenolic is much stronger than wood for this purpose. At present I make the sleeve 1.5" so that the tenons are .750 in length. The handle feels very stable with this configuration but I'm still considering going to a 2 " cylinder so that the tenons would then be an inch each. I bore the cylinder to around .650. I make my tenon on the prong .750, install my deco-rings and then turn down the tenon so that the cylinder is a nice fit and then I glue into place and drill and tap for the stud. I then rebore the cylinder to around .025 larger down to the prongs tenon. This cleans out the glue run off and ensures that the tenons bore is back to 100% true and then face for a perfect 90 deg. I then mount my handle and turn a tenon to perfectly fit the cylinders bore on the prong. I then drill and tap the handle and glue up. Doing this with a center rest insures that the prong will turn true and makes for a very sound, strong and solid fit.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Dick
Very neat idea, Dick. I seen a Spain done similar to this.
Sheldon said:I prefer the tenon on the forearm, but don't always do them that way. I almost always make them .750, but occasionally have done them smaller. I've also done tenons on both the handle and forearm, with a phenolic sleeve.
I've repaired some cues that had no tenon at all, and were made by well known makers.
With the importance that some place on tenons and such at the A-joint, one would think that a break/jump cue (GASP!! NO TENON!!) would self-destruct!
By the time I got done typing my post a number of others have posted. I believe that a cue with an A-splice must have more than just a pin holding it together. I, myself have never ran into a cue with no tenon what-so-ever other than a J/B. A J/B gets by with no tenon because if it gets slightly lose you can give the handle a little twist and it is tight again. When the prong and handle are glued together you no longer have this luxury. If the glue breaks down from the two faces flexing, which will certainly happen, the stud will keep the handle/prong together but, I'm sure, there's going to be a pretty good buzz.
Dick
Hose Clamp
Don't quote me, but I think Joe Childs used a hose clamp during this process too. He made me a video a long time ago of some basic assembly stuff (very helpful for me at the time). I haven't talked to him in quite a while, I wonder if he's still at it. It's a good idea though for sure.
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Don't quote me, but I think Joe Childs used a hose clamp during this process too. He made me a video a long time ago of some basic assembly stuff (very helpful for me at the time). I haven't talked to him in quite a while, I wonder if he's still at it. It's a good idea though for sure.