Mouthfull of tea, meet computer monitor. :lol:
Mitch Ellerman Ripped Off at Galveston Tournament
- Thread starter Fast Lenny
- Start date
Mouthfull of tea, meet computer monitor. :lol:
A guy at work won a Beamer for winning a video game at a car show. He got it delivered months later. And paid taxes on it as well. Looks like you caught someone in a story-telling mood, and he just doesn't want to concede.
It's funny that people think that one example of someone getting something shipped free means that this is the norm. Yeah, that's really logic and reasoning. BTW not many of the facts have come out in this thread as to what arrangements (if any) the winner made with the guys running the raffle. If you want to slam the guys that ran the Galveston Tourney, and Ashley Furniture, shouldn't you at least post the whole story?
And I kind of enjoyed Lou's story.
Here's another hypothetical story:
What if you were running a raffle or a challenge game of some kind, say a one-pocket challenge that ran over a period of several days, maybe at a tournament like DCC. And Player A had the early lead in this challenge, and got knocked out of the tournament and went home. Then the guy running this challenge, a day or so later decided to let some others shoot on a different table and they beat Player A's score. Well, when Player A calls to talk to the guy running the challenge, and finds out his score has been beat, but it was on a different table, he thinks this is unfair. He tells Jay (er, I mean the guy running the challenge) that he would like a chance to beat the new high score on this different table, and asks him to ship the table to his house so he can try a couple of more times. That's only fair, right Jay?..........just poking a little fun, Jay, but, really many will disagree that one would be correct in assuming shipping would be provided in such a case, as it could be anywhere in the world.
And I kind of enjoyed Lou's story.
Here's another hypothetical story:
What if you were running a raffle or a challenge game of some kind, say a one-pocket challenge that ran over a period of several days, maybe at a tournament like DCC. And Player A had the early lead in this challenge, and got knocked out of the tournament and went home. Then the guy running this challenge, a day or so later decided to let some others shoot on a different table and they beat Player A's score. Well, when Player A calls to talk to the guy running the challenge, and finds out his score has been beat, but it was on a different table, he thinks this is unfair. He tells Jay (er, I mean the guy running the challenge) that he would like a chance to beat the new high score on this different table, and asks him to ship the table to his house so he can try a couple of more times. That's only fair, right Jay?..........just poking a little fun, Jay, but, really many will disagree that one would be correct in assuming shipping would be provided in such a case, as it could be anywhere in the world.
Stop it. You're killing me.
I'm sorry -- what logic and reasoning have you used? I must have missed it. You gave a couple of examples, trying to make the leap that that proved it's the norm, and that was about it. (Also, calling something "specious" does not make it so, unless you can show why.)
What I think you may have missed is that that was the basis for the "silly story." When someone is as far out there, as you are on this, it's easy to lampoon their position. Which brings me to what effect I had on you feeling any different: I was not out to make you feel any different -- I know I can't reach you. You are so far out there on this one, so far removed from reality, I'm surprised you even have any kind of internet connection in Never Never Land. IOW, you were not my target audience on that one
So, for the sake or argument, let's just take your last point and forget that you ignored all my questions about the circumstances surrounding the Mercedes. You said:
"If you think that winning a cue and winning a room full of furniture present the same set of problems for the winner, I feel sorry for you." (Sorry right back at ya, I've looked at your posts for anything else remotely resembling "logic and reasoning," but this is the closest I could get.)
OK. So let me ask you: are you saying that who should bear the brunt of the time, money and effort for delivery of merchandise won in a raffle, should be determined by the "set of problems" it presents for the winner of said raffle? Because that's what I get out of what you said. So, could you please explain why this is and should be so? Where is the "bright line" that separates, say the pool cue won and the set of furniture won, so clearly that it should be obvious to the raffle winner and sponsor? Cue and a case? Two cues and a case? A set of house cues? A pool table with a set of pool cues? A complete game room? IOW, when exactly does the burden for transporting the prize, shift from winner to raffle sponsor?
And while you're thinking about it: how does an example or two prove that what you're saying is the norm for all raffles in today's economic environment?
Lou Figueroa
Last edited:
A guy at work won a Beamer for winning a video game at a car show. He got it delivered months later. And paid taxes on it as well. Looks like you caught someone in a story-telling mood, and he just doesn't want to concede.
Yeah. I know a guy at work who won a Porsche, but had to go to Germany to pick it up and freight it back.
Looks like someone got caught in trying to make one story sound like it happens that way for everybody.
Lou Figueroa
I'm arriving late to the party here, but I have a similar story. :grin-square:
My friend's daughter got on Wheel of Fortune and won about $30,000-plus in prizes.
The interesting thing is that, yes, she did have to pay taxes on it, but she had to pay taxes on what Wheel of Fortune said the prizes were worth.
She won a trip to Istanbul or Yugoslavia -- (I can't remember) -- and they said the prize was worth $13,000.
If she had booked this trip herself, she could have gotten it for about $4,000.
That said, she had to pay taxes on $13,000 for that trip.
California also made her pay taxes, in addition to Federal. However, though she paid California, she got a lawyer who got California to give her a refund on what she paid them in taxes. She lives in Maryland, and the lawyer said she didn't have to pay California taxes.
Today, the IRS Tax Code is over 70,000 pages. 1913 is when the IRS Tax Code was created, and it was 400 pages.
My friend's daughter got on Wheel of Fortune and won about $30,000-plus in prizes.
The interesting thing is that, yes, she did have to pay taxes on it, but she had to pay taxes on what Wheel of Fortune said the prizes were worth.
She won a trip to Istanbul or Yugoslavia -- (I can't remember) -- and they said the prize was worth $13,000.
If she had booked this trip herself, she could have gotten it for about $4,000.
That said, she had to pay taxes on $13,000 for that trip.
California also made her pay taxes, in addition to Federal. However, though she paid California, she got a lawyer who got California to give her a refund on what she paid them in taxes. She lives in Maryland, and the lawyer said she didn't have to pay California taxes.
Today, the IRS Tax Code is over 70,000 pages. 1913 is when the IRS Tax Code was created, and it was 400 pages.
Most likely not to include delivery
Raffles are governed by state laws which differ state to state. Most raffles for large items that I have found do not include delivery or taxes, but may. The key to having a "legal" raffle is to follow the applicable laws which will always include full disclosure of fees and responsibilities. The guidelines below are general. Jim
How to Legally Raffle Off a Car
By memgineer
Harbor House's 2008 Car Raffle Prize http://www.harbor-house.org/events.html
It is difficult to develop a guide that addresses raffling off cars in all states, because state and county laws vary. In some jurisdictions, raffles are treated like lotteries and considered a form of gambling. It is advisable that you contact your city, county and state governments to ensure adherence to appropriate law. Many locations require registration or that an application be filed. A general process for holding a car raffle follows.
Step 1. Check with your local government to ensure that raffles are legal. Places where raffles are illegal include Hawaii and Kansas.
Step 2. Verify whether individuals can hold a raffle; or if you are establishing a raffle for an organization, that the appropriate type of organization (e.g. for-profit business or non-profit charitable organization) is allowed to host them. Raffles are often limited to educational or charitable organizations, fraternal orders, churches or volunteer organizations (like volunteer fire departments). Occasionally there is a requirement that a charitable organization have been in operation for more than 5 years (e.g. Indiana and Tennessee).
Step 3. If a raffle is legal, determine whether there is a permit, application or registration process. For example, in California, raffles register with the California Attorney General. In Maryland, charitable organizations must submit a disclosure statement to the Charitable Organizations Division (a branch of the Secretary of State) that includes details of the date, location and time of the raffle; information about the charity; and any costs attributable to the winner. In Georgia, a license is obtained from the Sheriff.
Step 4. Check the application for deadlines. In Tennessee, applications are accepted by the Secretary of State, Division of Charitable Solicitations between July 1 and December 31.
Step 5. Fill out the application and pay any applicable fees. Fee structures are often dependent upon the value of the item(s) being raffled.
Step 6. Take note of any additional requirements the state may have. It is common for a financial report to be required after the event; and for extremely high-value items ($50,000 or more), an audited financial statement may be required. Some state limit the number of raffles an organization can hold in a year.
Step 7. Make certain the entry rules mention whether winner of a raffle is responsible for local, state and federal taxes; insurance; fees; delivery costs; or incidentals like title transfers or registration. An organization is responsible for filing an IRS Form 990 for any prizes valued at $600 or more.
Step 8. Consider including common provisions that raffles typically include, like a minimum age to enter (18 or 21); proof of driver's license, and the use of a certified public accountant or accounting firm to verify the raffle results.
Step 9. Advertise your raffle, and sell tickets.
Step 10. Conduct the raffle in accordance with the rules you established.
Step 11. Deliver the prize(s) to any winners.
Step 12. File any final paperwork with the government that is required.
Step 13. Enjoy the fruits of your labor, and be sure to thank any donor that may have given your organization a car to raffle.
Raffles are governed by state laws which differ state to state. Most raffles for large items that I have found do not include delivery or taxes, but may. The key to having a "legal" raffle is to follow the applicable laws which will always include full disclosure of fees and responsibilities. The guidelines below are general. Jim
How to Legally Raffle Off a Car
By memgineer
Harbor House's 2008 Car Raffle Prize http://www.harbor-house.org/events.html
It is difficult to develop a guide that addresses raffling off cars in all states, because state and county laws vary. In some jurisdictions, raffles are treated like lotteries and considered a form of gambling. It is advisable that you contact your city, county and state governments to ensure adherence to appropriate law. Many locations require registration or that an application be filed. A general process for holding a car raffle follows.
Step 1. Check with your local government to ensure that raffles are legal. Places where raffles are illegal include Hawaii and Kansas.
Step 2. Verify whether individuals can hold a raffle; or if you are establishing a raffle for an organization, that the appropriate type of organization (e.g. for-profit business or non-profit charitable organization) is allowed to host them. Raffles are often limited to educational or charitable organizations, fraternal orders, churches or volunteer organizations (like volunteer fire departments). Occasionally there is a requirement that a charitable organization have been in operation for more than 5 years (e.g. Indiana and Tennessee).
Step 3. If a raffle is legal, determine whether there is a permit, application or registration process. For example, in California, raffles register with the California Attorney General. In Maryland, charitable organizations must submit a disclosure statement to the Charitable Organizations Division (a branch of the Secretary of State) that includes details of the date, location and time of the raffle; information about the charity; and any costs attributable to the winner. In Georgia, a license is obtained from the Sheriff.
Step 4. Check the application for deadlines. In Tennessee, applications are accepted by the Secretary of State, Division of Charitable Solicitations between July 1 and December 31.
Step 5. Fill out the application and pay any applicable fees. Fee structures are often dependent upon the value of the item(s) being raffled.
Step 6. Take note of any additional requirements the state may have. It is common for a financial report to be required after the event; and for extremely high-value items ($50,000 or more), an audited financial statement may be required. Some state limit the number of raffles an organization can hold in a year.
Step 7. Make certain the entry rules mention whether winner of a raffle is responsible for local, state and federal taxes; insurance; fees; delivery costs; or incidentals like title transfers or registration. An organization is responsible for filing an IRS Form 990 for any prizes valued at $600 or more.
Step 8. Consider including common provisions that raffles typically include, like a minimum age to enter (18 or 21); proof of driver's license, and the use of a certified public accountant or accounting firm to verify the raffle results.
Step 9. Advertise your raffle, and sell tickets.
Step 10. Conduct the raffle in accordance with the rules you established.
Step 11. Deliver the prize(s) to any winners.
Step 12. File any final paperwork with the government that is required.
Step 13. Enjoy the fruits of your labor, and be sure to thank any donor that may have given your organization a car to raffle.
I'm arriving late to the party here, but I have a similar story. :grin-square:
My friend's daughter got on Wheel of Fortune and won about $30,000-plus in prizes.
The interesting thing is that, yes, she did have to pay taxes on it, but she had to pay taxes on what Wheel of Fortune said the prizes were worth.
She won a trip to Istanbul or Yugoslavia -- (I can't remember) -- and they said the prize was worth $13,000.
If she had booked this trip herself, she could have gotten it for about $4,000.
That said, she had to pay taxes on $13,000 for that trip.
California also made her pay taxes, in addition to Federal. However, though she paid California, she got a lawyer who got California to give her a refund on what she paid them in taxes. She lives in Maryland, and the lawyer said she didn't have to pay California taxes.
Today, the IRS Tax Code is over 70,000 pages. 1913 is when the IRS Tax Code was created, and it was 400 pages.
I heard you could pay taxes on Fair market value of won items, trips etc. This prevents BS overpaying like that. I'd check into this if I were you.
Stop it. You're killing me.
I'm sorry -- what logic and reasoning have you used? I must have missed it. You gave a couple of examples, trying to make the leap that that proved it's the norm, and that was about it. (Also, calling something "specious" does not make it so, unless you can show why.)
What I think you may have missed is that that was the basis for the "silly story." When someone is as far out there, as you are on this, it's easy to lampoon their position. Which brings me to what effect I had on you feeling any different: I was not out to make you feel any different -- I know I can't reach you. You are so far out there on this one, so far removed from reality, I'm surprised you even have any kind of internet connection in Never Never Land. IOW, you were not my target audience on that one
So, for the sake or argument, let's just take your last point and forget that you ignored all my questions about the circumstances surrounding the Mercedes. You said:
"If you think that winning a cue and winning a room full of furniture present the same set of problems for the winner, I feel sorry for you." (Sorry right back at ya, I've looked at your posts for anything else remotely resembling "logic and reasoning," but this is the closest I could get.)
OK. So let me ask you: are you saying that who should bear the brunt of the time, money and effort for delivery of merchandise won in a raffle, should be determined by the "set of problems" it presents for the winner of said raffle? Because that's what I get out of what you said. So, could you please explain why this is and should be so? Where is the "bright line" that separates, say the pool cue won and the set of furniture won, so clearly that it should be obvious to the raffle winner and sponsor? Cue and a case? Two cues and a case? A set of house cues? A pool table with a set of pool cues? A complete game room? IOW, when exactly does the burden for transporting the prize, shift from winner to raffle sponsor?
And while you're thinking about it: how does an example or two prove that what you're saying is the norm for all raffles in today's economic environment?
Lou Figueroa
Let's see - a pool cue weighs maybe 19 ounces and can be easily transported (maybe that's why these raffles are so popular at many pool tournaments). A room full furniture weighs maybe 1,000 pounds and is not so easily transported. It really doesn't take a genius to tell the difference.
Much as you would like to believe otherwise, you're losing this debate Lou. Weren't you the same guy who was all over Joey about the Galveston event? Now you want to defend these shysters who screwed Mitch. Nice flip flop Lou.
Step 11. DELIVER the prize(s) to the winner!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg
Raffles are governed by state laws which differ state to state. Most raffles for large items that I have found do not include delivery or taxes, but may. The key to having a "legal" raffle is to follow the applicable laws which will always include full disclosure of fees and responsibilities. The guidelines below are general. Jim
How to Legally Raffle Off a Car
By memgineer
Harbor House's 2008 Car Raffle Prize http://www.harbor-house.org/events.html
It is difficult to develop a guide that addresses raffling off cars in all states, because state and county laws vary. In some jurisdictions, raffles are treated like lotteries and considered a form of gambling. It is advisable that you contact your city, county and state governments to ensure adherence to appropriate law. Many locations require registration or that an application be filed. A general process for holding a car raffle follows.
Step 1. Check with your local government to ensure that raffles are legal. Places where raffles are illegal include Hawaii and Kansas.
Step 2. Verify whether individuals can hold a raffle; or if you are establishing a raffle for an organization, that the appropriate type of organization (e.g. for-profit business or non-profit charitable organization) is allowed to host them. Raffles are often limited to educational or charitable organizations, fraternal orders, churches or volunteer organizations (like volunteer fire departments). Occasionally there is a requirement that a charitable organization have been in operation for more than 5 years (e.g. Indiana and Tennessee).
Step 3. If a raffle is legal, determine whether there is a permit, application or registration process. For example, in California, raffles register with the California Attorney General. In Maryland, charitable organizations must submit a disclosure statement to the Charitable Organizations Division (a branch of the Secretary of State) that includes details of the date, location and time of the raffle; information about the charity; and any costs attributable to the winner. In Georgia, a license is obtained from the Sheriff.
Step 4. Check the application for deadlines. In Tennessee, applications are accepted by the Secretary of State, Division of Charitable Solicitations between July 1 and December 31.
Step 5. Fill out the application and pay any applicable fees. Fee structures are often dependent upon the value of the item(s) being raffled.
Step 6. Take note of any additional requirements the state may have. It is common for a financial report to be required after the event; and for extremely high-value items ($50,000 or more), an audited financial statement may be required. Some state limit the number of raffles an organization can hold in a year.
Step 7. Make certain the entry rules mention whether winner of a raffle is responsible for local, state and federal taxes; insurance; fees; delivery costs; or incidentals like title transfers or registration. An organization is responsible for filing an IRS Form 990 for any prizes valued at $600 or more.
Step 8. Consider including common provisions that raffles typically include, like a minimum age to enter (18 or 21); proof of driver's license, and the use of a certified public accountant or accounting firm to verify the raffle results.
Step 9. Advertise your raffle, and sell tickets.
Step 10. Conduct the raffle in accordance with the rules you established.
Step 11. Deliver the prize(s) to any winners.
Step 12. File any final paperwork with the government that is required.
Step 13. Enjoy the fruits of your labor, and be sure to thank any donor that may have given your organization a car to raffle.
Absolutely Jay, but only after Step 7 is complied with.
Jim
Originally Posted by jimmyg
Raffles are governed by state laws which differ state to state. Most raffles for large items that I have found do not include delivery or taxes, but may. The key to having a "legal" raffle is to follow the applicable laws which will always include full disclosure of fees and responsibilities. The guidelines below are general. Jim
How to Legally Raffle Off a Car
By memgineer
Harbor House's 2008 Car Raffle Prize http://www.harbor-house.org/events.html
It is difficult to develop a guide that addresses raffling off cars in all states, because state and county laws vary. In some jurisdictions, raffles are treated like lotteries and considered a form of gambling. It is advisable that you contact your city, county and state governments to ensure adherence to appropriate law. Many locations require registration or that an application be filed. A general process for holding a car raffle follows.
Step 1. Check with your local government to ensure that raffles are legal. Places where raffles are illegal include Hawaii and Kansas.
Step 2. Verify whether individuals can hold a raffle; or if you are establishing a raffle for an organization, that the appropriate type of organization (e.g. for-profit business or non-profit charitable organization) is allowed to host them. Raffles are often limited to educational or charitable organizations, fraternal orders, churches or volunteer organizations (like volunteer fire departments). Occasionally there is a requirement that a charitable organization have been in operation for more than 5 years (e.g. Indiana and Tennessee).
Step 3. If a raffle is legal, determine whether there is a permit, application or registration process. For example, in California, raffles register with the California Attorney General. In Maryland, charitable organizations must submit a disclosure statement to the Charitable Organizations Division (a branch of the Secretary of State) that includes details of the date, location and time of the raffle; information about the charity; and any costs attributable to the winner. In Georgia, a license is obtained from the Sheriff.
Step 4. Check the application for deadlines. In Tennessee, applications are accepted by the Secretary of State, Division of Charitable Solicitations between July 1 and December 31.
Step 5. Fill out the application and pay any applicable fees. Fee structures are often dependent upon the value of the item(s) being raffled.
Step 6. Take note of any additional requirements the state may have. It is common for a financial report to be required after the event; and for extremely high-value items ($50,000 or more), an audited financial statement may be required. Some state limit the number of raffles an organization can hold in a year.
Step 7. Make certain the entry rules mention whether winner of a raffle is responsible for local, state and federal taxes; insurance; fees; delivery costs; or incidentals like title transfers or registration. An organization is responsible for filing an IRS Form 990 for any prizes valued at $600 or more.
Step 8. Consider including common provisions that raffles typically include, like a minimum age to enter (18 or 21); proof of driver's license, and the use of a certified public accountant or accounting firm to verify the raffle results.
Step 9. Advertise your raffle, and sell tickets.
Step 10. Conduct the raffle in accordance with the rules you established.
Step 11. Deliver the prize(s) to any winners.
Step 12. File any final paperwork with the government that is required.
Step 13. Enjoy the fruits of your labor, and be sure to thank any donor that may have given your organization a car to raffle.
Absolutely Jay, but only after Step 7 is complied with.
Jim
How many gaffle tickets do you think they would have sold if they said - by the way, you have 24 hours to pickup the 1000 pounds of furniture or it will be forfeited, used in one of the promoters homes and then given away to the first person that comes by and claims it.
Thank you Jim. I think I'm done with this thread. In my opinion Galveston turned out to be a pretty decent event, with substantial money added (over 100K total), and very nice pay outs to the winners. But as far as the raffle is concerned, my opinion is that Mitch Ellerman got the short end of the stick. That's my opinion and I'm sorry if we don't all agree.
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night! Ho Ho Ho!
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night! Ho Ho Ho!
Last edited:
I dont make other people's problems mine, I have enough of my own. It appears to me that Mitch dosent seem to care as much as everyone else does here. Its a shame for sure. Unless he is asking for advice-just let it be, Mitch is a big boy he can handle his biz just fine, if he cant then seeking advice is the right move, I seek advice all the time when I know that I cant seem to solve the issue at hand. I havent read this thread, I hope Mitch gets whats his-if not he should ask for help and then we should help him, but until then we should mind our own business.
Here is a true story:
The son of a famous pool player used to raffel cars at the county fair every year, he would have less than 10K in it and awalys sold more than $20,000 in tickets. He would offer the winner a cash settelment of around 5-6K sometimes a bit more, because he didnt want the hastle of buying another heap of chit and fixing it up for the next raffel 100 miles away, He used 15 year old sport cars with fresh paint so it looked great. The winners would usually opt for the cash, he would tell them that the car would be hard to sell or might need expensive repair work someday. The winners didnt want that headache, and he told them they had to pay taxes(true), but if they chose the cash option he would pay them in cash on the spot in cash-and nobody would know. He would usually get them to agree they buy a $20 ticket and pocket $6,000 tax free. The raffeler would be in a world of hurt if he got caught. He liked it when real old people would win or tweeker types cause he knew they werent cops and hopdfully not snich him out. If a clean cut 28 year old guy won he would just give him the keys and the sales tax paperwork and pink slip. He had his bases covered. He never got caught, he stopped when he got into another gig-real estate is what he has been doing forthe last 15 years.
That was the whole gig, He wou ld get the space for free at the fair grounds because it was a raffel for a charitable cause, he did give the charity 15%(which is about the lowest you can go and not get in trouble), The tickets has serial numbers on them so he could calculate how many he sold and count the $$$. He hired real pretty girls, not super hott as they might intimidate some guys. He had it all figured out.
I learned all this from him as he wanted me to get in the biz with him, I said "Why me?" he said simple we can now cover LA and Vegas. Swap out cars so there is the illusion of new cars at each drawing. I didnt like it, what he was doing was clearly illegal and for a few thousand I didnt want to get introuble. Raffels are a gaff 90% of the time. The door prize at the Moose Club is legit, even Chruch raffels can be rigged without the church knowing that it is. I wouldnt ever do a raffel.
The cue raffels here AZB are cool and those raffels are among friends, but the car raffels are a gaff.
I hope Mitch gets whats comming, he is a good guy-I dont know him very well but I can tell he is good with me.
Here is a true story:
The son of a famous pool player used to raffel cars at the county fair every year, he would have less than 10K in it and awalys sold more than $20,000 in tickets. He would offer the winner a cash settelment of around 5-6K sometimes a bit more, because he didnt want the hastle of buying another heap of chit and fixing it up for the next raffel 100 miles away, He used 15 year old sport cars with fresh paint so it looked great. The winners would usually opt for the cash, he would tell them that the car would be hard to sell or might need expensive repair work someday. The winners didnt want that headache, and he told them they had to pay taxes(true), but if they chose the cash option he would pay them in cash on the spot in cash-and nobody would know. He would usually get them to agree they buy a $20 ticket and pocket $6,000 tax free. The raffeler would be in a world of hurt if he got caught. He liked it when real old people would win or tweeker types cause he knew they werent cops and hopdfully not snich him out. If a clean cut 28 year old guy won he would just give him the keys and the sales tax paperwork and pink slip. He had his bases covered. He never got caught, he stopped when he got into another gig-real estate is what he has been doing forthe last 15 years.
That was the whole gig, He wou ld get the space for free at the fair grounds because it was a raffel for a charitable cause, he did give the charity 15%(which is about the lowest you can go and not get in trouble), The tickets has serial numbers on them so he could calculate how many he sold and count the $$$. He hired real pretty girls, not super hott as they might intimidate some guys. He had it all figured out.
I learned all this from him as he wanted me to get in the biz with him, I said "Why me?" he said simple we can now cover LA and Vegas. Swap out cars so there is the illusion of new cars at each drawing. I didnt like it, what he was doing was clearly illegal and for a few thousand I didnt want to get introuble. Raffels are a gaff 90% of the time. The door prize at the Moose Club is legit, even Chruch raffels can be rigged without the church knowing that it is. I wouldnt ever do a raffel.
The cue raffels here AZB are cool and those raffels are among friends, but the car raffels are a gaff.
I hope Mitch gets whats comming, he is a good guy-I dont know him very well but I can tell he is good with me.
Last edited:
Wow. Just over powering in the logic and reasoning department, lol.
BTW, when did you become The Amazing Kreskin? I don't believe you have any idea what I do or don't believe. Just for grins, the one thing I will tell you that I do believe is that even you, all the way over there in Never Never Land, should be able to distinguish that what happen with the pool tournament, could be discussed as an issue separate from a raffle.
Lou Figueroa
then again...
Probably not many (though I doubt those last two clauses would have been part of the original deal
Maybe they were just counting on stupidity?
Lou Figueroa
seems like they made
a smart bet