Mitch Ellerman Ripped Off at Galveston Tournament

[watchez]

So you think the same people that shorted the players ADVERTISED and payout money did the right thing here and simply stored the furniture in someone's garage. Then when Mitch started to inquire on where his prize was now and how he was to get it, 'someone' miraculiously showed up to pick it up at the guys house and now it has vanished. Amazing. I can only assume that Lenny/Mitch weren't told who the 'someone' was that picked up the furniture or they would be pursuing that avenue.

You keep making comments about my intellect. If that is what makes you happy on how to spin it but obviously you don't know people. I am betting my thoughts on what happened here are a lot closer than yours.

 

[punter]

So you think the same people that shorted the players ADVERTISED and payout money did the right thing here and simply stored the furniture in someone's garage. Then when Mitch started to inquire on where his prize was now and how he was to get it, 'someone' miraculiously showed up to pick it up at the guys house and now it has vanished. Amazing. I can only assume that Lenny/Mitch weren't told who the 'someone' was that picked up the furniture or they would be pursuing that avenue.

You keep making comments about my intellect. If that is what makes you happy on how to spin it but obviously you don't know people. I am betting my thoughts on what happened here are a lot closer than yours.

So you think that it's unreasonable that a venue would request that something like this furniture be moved after an event is over?

And who would they ask to move it? The people who rented the space to begin with.

Where would you put it if you had to pick it up and move it? And you had some space to store it somewhere at your house? Would you instead go out and rent space to store it?

Frankly the winner is fortunate that they moved it anywhere, otherwise he may have recovered zilch from the deal.

And also, to assume that a guy that has the money to fund this kind of an event would really want to 'steal' an $8000 furniture set, shows your powers of reasoning are lacking.

 

[watchez]

So you think that it's unreasonable that a venue would request that something like this furniture be moved after an event is over?

And who would they ask to move it? The people who rented the space to begin with.

Where would you put it if you had to pick it up and move it? And you had some space to store it somewhere at your house? Would you instead go out and rent space to store it?

Frankly the winner is fortunate that they moved it anywhere, otherwise he may have recovered zilch from the deal.

And also, to assume that a guy that has the money to fund this kind of an event would really want to 'steal' an $8000 furniture set, shows your powers of reasoning are lacking.

The guy or guys that had the money to fund this kind of an event obviously didn't because all the monies were not paid.

And up to this point, 3 months later, he has still recovered zilch.

 

[Celtic]

Why is he responsible to move the furniture and why do you assume he is?

Because that was the rules?

Why do you think that The tournament promoters should be responsible to ship the furniture that was donated to the event by Ashley to anywhere in the world to whoever won the raffle? If someone from Adelaide Australia won the furniture the shipping charges would be higher then the entire value of the furniture. To cover their costs for the raffle did you expect them to sell 800 tickets at $20 for a total collection of $16,000 for the $8,000 prize so that they could then ship it to god knows where to the winner? This is why MOST raffles do NOT ship the prize.

Why do you think that Ashley should have to ship in a set of that exact furniture that they donated to the Galveston event to any of their locations in the world so that the winner can collect their prize? They donated that exact physical set of furniture to the Galveston event and had NOTHING to do with the raffle.

More communication on both sides was needed. Assuming things most definately screws stuff up and Mitch assumed a great deal to think that people were going to deliver the stuff right to his door. Could the people of the raffle been more clear on the transportation of the furniture? Sure, they assumed stuff as well, but I cannot fathom how Mitch would not even ask the bloody question that would have made things clear. As I stated above common sense dictates you ask about these things, not just assume the furniture is going to be hand delivered right to your door.

Cripe, if I go to Toronto and buy a ticket to win a car in the mall and I win I sure don't expect them to ship that car to Calgary for me. I am probably paying for the thing to get put onto a train and shipped out, selling to someone in Toronto and transfering ownership, or I am flying out to Toronto on my own dime and driving my new car across Canada back to Calgary. To assume that car in the mall is going to be hand delivered to me, that would be idiotic TBH.

 

[punter]

The guy or guys that had the money to fund this kind of an event obviously didn't because all the monies were not paid.

And up to this point, 3 months later, he has still recovered zilch.

They reportedly lost several hundred thousand dollars. Do you really think one of them said, Hey, I can recoup $8000 by stealing this furniture.

What is the real reason you want to bash this event Watchez? How much did you lose on this event? Granted some of the payouts were not as advertised, but they were still substantial amounts. In the one pocket event, first place was reduced at the players' request. Only Efren has a complaint. I haven't heard the players making complaints, maybe I missed it.

When a first year event that is trying to do something big in pool comes up short, instead of taking the attitude that it is a good start and will get better next year with increased support, the prevailing attitude seems to be "These worthless SOB's screwed us again." (At least from some people)

 

[Celtic]

So you think the same people that shorted the players ADVERTISED and payout money did the right thing here and simply stored the furniture in someone's garage. Then when Mitch started to inquire on where his prize was now and how he was to get it, 'someone' miraculiously showed up to pick it up at the guys house and now it has vanished.

No, on this note NOW the people who had the furniture screwed up. They should not have been expected to store the furniture indefinately but when they decided that they had stored it for long enough and that the owner NEEDS to come and get his stuff they should have contacted him, told him that he has 2 weeks to come collect his property, or they were going to no longer store it and get rid of it.

Where the people with the furniture screwed up is they flat out gave it away.

Although the comical thing is that some goofball who was lurking on this thread had ALL of the information to A) contact the people of Galveston and claim "Hi, I am Mitch Ellerman, I won some furniture in your raffle, I would like to come and collect it" B) Get a fake ID made which is fairly easy with todays technology and a good printer, and C) go with fake ID to the house where the furniture is being stored say "heya, I am Mitch, here is my ID, sorry for making you store this stuff for me, I had no idea I needed to transport it myself, here is $100 for your troubles, can you help me move the stuff into my van?", pack up the furniture into a moving van, and poof, "Mitch" is gone with "his" furniture.

If the above happend after all this time with this thread being started by the people who was trying to get free delivery of the furniture, outing all of the information required onto a public message board, I am hard pressed to see how it would be the fault of the people that gave the furniture away. Given that Mitch did not seem to be actively communicating and trying to resolve the whole thing.

I am not saying that the above took place, but given the way this all went down it would be pretty easy to do. And in that case the furniture would be gone, period, you would never see it again.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Last I checked....there were A.F outlets here in Phoenix....Why didn't they just give him a voucher for the furniture set that he could have redemmed here in Phoenix??? I am guessing this was NOT a custom 1 off furniture set.

Seems like it would have saved everyone shipping.

 

[jay helfert]

Last I checked....there were A.F outlets here in Phoenix....Why didn't they just give him a voucher for the furniture set that he could have redemmed here in Phoenix??? I am guessing this was NOT a custom 1 off furniture set.

Seems like it would have saved everyone shipping.

THANK YOU! They sell this same furniture all over the country. There is absolutely no reason why Mitch couldn't have picked up an identical set in Phoenix. Something is and was fishy about this "raffle". Wonder how much money was collected from the sale of tickets. Sorry, but I can get real cynical fast when things are amiss.

I remember when Loree Jon Jones won a slew of things on a TV game show. Everything was shipped to her, no charge! If this raffle was legit then Ashley would want the winner to receive their prize. They don't need the bad publicity. I think Mitch should definitely notify them about what happened.

I don't like it one bit. Mitch is a good guy and as honorable as they come. He got ripped off, plain and simple. That's my opinion.

 

[Scott Lee]

Jay...FYI, Loree Jon had to write a check for the taxes on everything she won, BEFORE anything was shipped to her. That's how Price Is Right does things. Any cash prizes, you have to fill out a 1099 for the IRS, before you get paid.

On topic, I agree that Mitch should have been able to pick up his furniture from an Ashley Furniture store in AZ...unless it was strictly spelled out in the raffle, that the winner had to pick up their prize on the spot.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I remember when Loree Jon Jones won a slew of things on a TV game show. Everything was shipped to her, no charge!.

 

[Celtic]

There is absolutely no reason why Mitch couldn't have picked up an identical set in Phoenix.

How are you people not getting the point that Ashley was donating the FURNITURE!

Not a bloody gift certificate.

They were approached by people asking them to sponser the event in some way, and they likely had a set of last years model furniture, or floor models they needed to get out of the store to clear space and they donated that exact furniture to the event so that it could be raffled off.

Ashley was under NO obligation to ship the stuff anywhere, or offer people the option of getting the same set anywhere in the country. They donated a specific physical set of furniture to the event, they did not offer a $8000 shopping spree at any of the stores in the nation.

 

[punter]

THANK YOU! They sell this same furniture all over the country. There is absolutely no reason why Mitch couldn't have picked up an identical set in Phoenix. Something is and was fishy about this "raffle". Wonder how much money was collected from the sale of tickets. Sorry, but I can get real cynical fast when things are amiss.

I remember when Loree Jon Jones won a slew of things on a TV game show. Everything was shipped to her, no charge! If this raffle was legit then Ashley would want the winner to receive their prize. They don't need the bad publicity. I think Mitch should definitely notify them about what happened.

I don't like it one bit. Mitch is a good guy and as honorable as they come. He got ripped off, plain and simple. That's my opinion.

IIRC, Ashley furniture donated the furniture and someone else ran the raffle. So having another store give him a similar set probably wasn't an option. Raffles don't automatically include shipping, I don't care how many game shows you watched.

When you were in the booth with Joey, you had mostly good things to say about this tournament. As soon as you posted on the net, it was mostly bad things.

For someone who has been on the other side running things I would think you would understand people taking shots when they don't have all the info. Apparently not.

 

[lfigueroa]

My wife and I used to love to go to Vegas (not so much lately, with all the multiple deck shuffling machines and the chances high of dying of thirst before a cocktail waitress offers you a drink) and, we'd usually fly out once or twice a year.

On virtually every single one of those runs, I would inevitably -- like the moth to the flame -- be drawn to those big slot carousels with the big, beautiful, shiny sports car sitting on top. Sometimes the Vette. Sometimes the BMW. More than once, the Porsche. Now, each time that I would approached these particular machines, I knew, deep in my heart of hearts, that putting money into them to win the car was probably one of the worst bets in the whole casino. But I couldn't help myself and would always throw a few (more than I should have) bucks at it.

*But* even before I tossed the first bill into the slot, and without one peek at any rules, terms, contract, or nuthin', I would always say to my wife, "Honey, you're flyin' home solo this trip, because I'm driving this baby cross-country back home," because I never once, not even for a nano-second, thought the casino was going to assume responsibility for getting that car into my garage. I never, not for a moment, entertained any thought that I would have the option of picking up an identical vehicle from a St. Louis dealer. And, I knew, as well as I knew my own name, that if I somehow won that bad boy, and didn't pick it up within short and reasonable due course, I would and should forfeit any rights to it.

Sooooo, how this thread continues, with anyone in their right mind believing that the promoters, or Ashley, are at fault in any of this raffle business, is beyond me.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

IIRC, Ashley furniture donated the furniture and someone else ran the raffle. So having another store give him a similar set probably wasn't an option. Raffles don't automatically include shipping, I don't care how many game shows you watched.

When you were in the booth with Joey, you had mostly good things to say about this tournament. As soon as you posted on the net, it was mostly bad things.

For someone who has been on the other side running things I would think you would understand people taking shots when they don't have all the info. Apparently not.

You better read my posts again. I was one of the few who was still complimentary AFTER the tournament, except about this one thing. Any rational person knows this is a screwed up way to run a raffle. Especially with heavy things like furniture.

Let me say it a different way, Mitch got screwed! I didn't say who screwed him, but he damn sure did. NO WAY he should be expected to pay delivery on a room full of furniture. That's a scam, plain and simple! You will not convince me that he didn't get the raw end of the deal.

 

[jay helfert]

How are you people not getting the point that Ashley was donating the FURNITURE!

Not a bloody gift certificate.

They were approached by people asking them to sponser the event in some way, and they likely had a set of last years model furniture, or floor models they needed to get out of the store to clear space and they donated that exact furniture to the event so that it could be raffled off.

Ashley was under NO obligation to ship the stuff anywhere, or offer people the option of getting the same set anywhere in the country. They donated a specific physical set of furniture to the event, they did not offer a $8000 shopping spree at any of the stores in the nation.

Oh, I got the point all right. The raffle was held for the benefit of the promoter(s) who sold the tickets. Is that the point you are trying to make? It damn sure wasn't set up to see anyone actually get the furniture, unless they were local. Mitch should have given it all to Hillbilly, who lives nearby.

 

[jay helfert]

My wife and I used to love to go to Vegas (not so much lately, with all the multiple deck shuffling machines and the chances high of dying of thirst before a cocktail waitress offers you a drink) and, we'd usually fly out once or twice a year.

On virtually every single one of those runs, I would inevitably -- like the moth to the flame -- be drawn to those big slot carousels with the big, beautiful, shiny sports car sitting on top. Sometimes the Vette. Sometimes the BMW. More than once, the Porsche. Now, each time that I would approached these particular machines, I knew, deep in my heart of hearts, that putting money into them to win the car was probably one of the worst bets in the whole casino. But I couldn't help myself and would always throw a few (more than I should have) bucks at it.

*But* even before I tossed the first bill into the slot, and without one peek at any rules, terms, contract, or nuthin', I would always say to my wife, "Honey, you're flyin' home solo this trip, because I'm driving this baby cross-country back home," because I never once, not even for a nano-second, thought the casino was going to assume responsibility for getting that car into my garage. I never, not for a moment, entertained any thought that I would have the option of picking up an identical vehicle from a St. Louis dealer. And, I knew, as well as I knew my own name, that if I somehow won that bad boy, and didn't pick it up within short and reasonable due course, I would and should forfeit any rights to it.

Sooooo, how this thread continues, with anyone in their right mind believing that the promoters, or Ashley, are at fault in any of this raffle business, is beyond me.

Lou Figueroa

My buddy did win a Mercedes at the Mirage a few years ago. It was the grand prize in a Blackjack tournament. He could have taken $25,000 instead, but the car was worth about $35,000. He took the car! The casino gave him the option of taking a similar car from a local dealer and driving it home (not the car on display), or having the car delivered to his address in Los Angeles. It would have also been a similar car, but come from a local dealership. Yes, he did have to pay taxes on the car.

So much for this specious argument.

 

[bfdlad]

Oh, I got the point all right. The raffle was held for the benefit of the promoter(s) who sold the tickets. Is that the point you are trying to make? It damn sure wasn't set up to see anyone actually get the furniture, unless they were local. Mitch should have given it all to Hillbilly, who lives nearby.

That would have been a good soloution to this. Maybe Mitch did not know he lived close and I can't speak for Charlie but I am sure they could have figured something out for just staorage and then pay hillbillys way to a Vegas even or something where they could have picked it up. I guess looking back that may have been the answer. Jay you can actually come up with good ideas sometimes. Amazing eh?

 

[lfigueroa]

My buddy did win a Mercedes at the Mirage a few years ago. It was the grand prize in a Blackjack tournament. He could have taken $25,000 instead, but the car was worth about $35,000. He took the car! The casino gave him the option of taking a similar car from a local dealer and driving it home (not the car on display), or having the car delivered to his address in Los Angeles. It would have also been a similar car, but come from a local dealership. Yes, he did have to pay taxes on the car.

So much for this specious argument.

lol. Specious. You crack me up.

The example you give was "a few years ago" when, perhaps, the Vegas economy was different.

It was "a grand prize in a Blackjack tournament," not the prize for putting a couple of coins in a slot machine (just a bit closer to the equivalent of buying a raffle ticket) and the situation I was talking about.

I wonder if, today, the Mirage's policy on cars is the same -- you know, the ones I was talking about at the slots.

I wonder if choosing to "having the car delivered to his home address... in LA" was gratis.

I wonder if the same offer would have been made to someone from NY, or any other market for that matter, where the Vegas Mercedes dealer didn't also own a dealership.

I wonder if all the casinos on The Strip and Downtown and all The Boats across the country have the same policy for all merchandise won.


Probably not ;-)

But regardless, it wouldn't change the fact that presuming you were getting free delivery, on anything you've won, is downright stupid in the first place.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

lol. Specious. You crack me up.

The example you give was "a few years ago" when, perhaps, the Vegas economy was different.

It was "a grand prize in a Blackjack tournament," not the prize for putting a couple of coins in a slot machine (just a bit closer to the equivalent of buying a raffle ticket) and the situation I was talking about.

I wonder if, today, the Mirage's policy on cars is the same -- you know, the ones I was talking about at the slots.

I wonder if choosing to "having the car delivered to his home address... in LA" was gratis.

I wonder if the same offer would have been made to someone from NY, or any other market for that matter, where the Vegas Mercedes dealer didn't also own a dealership.

I wonder if all the casinos on The Strip and Downtown and all The Boats across the country have the same policy for all merchandise won.


Probably not ;-)

But regardless, it wouldn't change the fact that presuming you were getting free delivery, on anything you've won, is downright stupid in the first place.

Lou Figueroa

Most contests of any kind (raffle or otherwise) do work this way, contrary to what some people may think. Prizes are delivered!

I won a Murray pool table once. They called me the next day and asked for my address. It was delivered later that week. That is how a legitimate raffle is run.

And no, I didn't pay for the delivery or the set up. I did give the guys a nice tip though.

 

[lfigueroa]

Most contests of any kind (raffle or otherwise) do work this way, contrary to what some people may think. Prizes are delivered!

I won a Murray pool table once. They called me the next day and asked for my address. It was delivered later that week. That is how a legitimate raffle is run.

And no, I didn't pay for the delivery or the set up. I did give the guys a nice tip though.

Really? I guess I'm just not familiar with the alternate universe you're living in.


(The scene is any large pool tournament -- think DCC. They have just announced the winner of the cue raffle for a very nice custom cue, donated by a well known cue maker.)

Jay: Uh, hi. Are you the guy running the raffle for the cue?

Raffle Guy: Yes, I am.

Jay: Well, I won. I've got the winning ticket right here.

Raffle Guy: Oh, great! Well here it is. Enjoy!

Jay: No, no, no. I want it sent to me. Delivered.

Raffle Guy: Well. Sure. I guess we can do that. Of course you'll have to pay for that.

Jay: No. That was part of the raffle deal -- most contests of any kind (raffle or otherwise) work this way (contrary to what some people may think). Prizes are delivered!

Raffle Guy: Well, not here. In fact, I don't think we've ever implied we'd mail the cue out, much less ever been asked to or done that.

Jay: Are you kidding me?! I won a Murray pool table once. They called me the next day and asked for my address. It was delivered later that week. That is how a legitimate raffle is run. One time, at Band Camp, a buddy of mine won a Mercedes. And he got it delivered to Los Angeles!

Raffle Guy: Look, I'm really happy for your buddy -- but I've been raffling cues and cases for years -- we have *never* said we'd deliver it.

Jay: Well that's just specious. Everybody delivers raffle prizes. And I want this cue sent to me via UPS. You will be responsible for holding it until it gets to UPS -- you will be responsible for ensuring it's safety and good condition until it gets into the UPS system. And then you're going to find bubble wrap, a mailing tube, and send it UPS. Here's my address. (Jay provides address somewhere in Never Never Land.)

Raffle Guy: Is that it?

Jay: No. I want it insured for $8000. All together, it shouldn't cost you more than $80.

Raffle Guy: OK. No problem. You just sit tight until the cue gets to you

(Fade out to Jay waiting by his front door in Never Never Land, six months later, with no cue in sight.)

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

Really? I guess I'm just not familiar with the alternate universe you're living in.


(The scene is any large pool tournament -- think DCC. They have just announced the winner of the cue raffle for a very nice custom cue, donated by a well known cue maker.)

Jay: Uh, hi. Are you the guy running the raffle for the cue?

Raffle Guy: Yes, I am.

Jay: Well, I won. I've got the winning ticket right here.

Raffle Guy: Oh, great! Well here it is. Enjoy!

Jay: No, no, no. I want it sent to me. Delivered.

Raffle Guy: Well. Sure. I guess we can do that. Of course you'll have to pay for that.

Jay: No. That was part of the raffle deal -- most contests of any kind (raffle or otherwise) work this way (contrary to what some people may think). Prizes are delivered!

Raffle Guy: Well, not here. In fact, I don't think we've ever implied we'd mail the cue out, much less ever been asked to or done that.

Jay: Are you kidding me?! I won a Murray pool table once. They called me the next day and asked for my address. It was delivered later that week. That is how a legitimate raffle is run. One time, at Band Camp, a buddy of mine won a Mercedes. And he got it delivered to Los Angeles!

Raffle Guy: Look, I'm really happy for your buddy -- but I've been raffling cues and cases for years -- we have *never* said we'd deliver it.

Jay: Well that's just specious. Everybody delivers raffle prizes. And I want this cue sent to me via UPS. You will be responsible for holding it until it gets to UPS -- you will be responsible for ensuring it's safety and good condition until it gets into the UPS system. And then you're going to find bubble wrap, a mailing tube, and send it UPS. Here's my address. (Jay provides address somewhere in Never Never Land.)

Raffle Guy: Is that it?

Jay: No. I want it insured for $8000. All together, it shouldn't cost you more than $80.

Raffle Guy: OK. No problem. You just sit tight until the cue gets to you

(Fade out to Jay waiting by his front door in Never Never Land, six months later, with no cue in sight.)

Lou Figueroa

Unlike you Lou, I live in the real world. I don't have to make up silly stories to make my point. I prefer to use logic and reason, something you appear to be unfamiliar with.

Your "argument" has gotten weaker with each succeeding post. If you think that winning a cue and winning a room full of furniture present the same set of problems for the winner, I feel sorry for you.

The bottom line remains that Mitch got a bad deal in this raffle. He should NEVER have had to bear the cost of shipping the furniture to Arizona. It's unfair and dishonest in my opinion. You have said absolutely nothing to make me feel any different.