More elbow dropping nonsense
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
Well said, Chris. Consistency is the key. If you set up the same way every time, and you finish the same way every time, the odds are very good that what happens in between will also be the same every time.
BTW, while I encourage students to avoid the elbow drop, if it happens after contact with the cue ball, it has no impact on the shot. Follow-through is the end result of a good stroke, not a stand alone goal or task. If you finish your stroke, you will have follow-through. Try to start, perform and finish your stroke the same way every time.
Steve
I believe you are not thinking far enough.
I thought about this for a long time. What makes a good stroke. Does the cueball care, what my arm does? Basically it only cares about the cuetip's speed and direction. The cue should move in a straight line through the cueball without any side or up and down movement, right? How does "not dropping" the elbow help? Well to my understanding it only hurts. If you don't move your elbow, you can't move the cuestick in a straight line. The tip will always go down on the cloth because of the pendulum swing. That's not what I want.
I practiced a lot to find out what's best. And I came to the conclusion, that the whole issue about the elbow drop is just a misconception. You need to get rid of the idea, that you "drop" the elbow at some point of the stroke. You just use your elbow. It's not easy to describe, but you can see it best when you watch snooker players like John Higgins or Ronnie O'Sullivan (who just happen to be the 2 best players in the world today).
It is even easier, when your whole arm is positioned over the cue. I am still working on perfecting it, but my stroke is already much better than before. Straight and smooth. I have so much more control especially on small position play, like what you need more in straight pool. My highest run until last year was 41. I got over 40 only once. In the last two or three months, after I started changing my technique, I already made 5 runs over 50, one of them over 60. It's funny how I always tried to keep my elbow still, and now I discovered this.
That doesn't mean, that this is the best way for everyone. It could just be good for me. But I have some questions:
As SpiderWebComm pointed out correctly, 99% of all pros are dropping their elbow on almost every shot. If you say that's because they can afford to do it, because they have exceptionally good timing or talent, then explain this. As a pro, you want to go for consistency. If not dropping the elbow allowed for a more consistent stroke, wouldn't they incorporate that into their game anyway? Even if they have better timing or talent? Why do even snooker players, who need more accuracy, move their elbows all the time?
Of course... they are not human. Exceptional talents. From another planet. It's magic.
All I can see is that the best players in the world move their elbow.
I highlighted just the core information of Scott's post because I have no interest in getting into the personal back and forth. However, Scott is right from what I have seen after spending time with him and RandyG separately. They aren't going to twist your arm and force you to do things their way. In fact if you are doing things very well another way already they don't seem inclined to mess with what works, just add to it a little.
I like thinking and working "outside the box". However I read something forty years ago that I have never forgotten. The methods and techniques that have came to be considered standard and "in the box" are considered standard for good reason. Before deciding to not use them it is best to understand them, including their benefits and their shortcomings. With no offense to the people using it or advocating it, the pendulum has both benefits and shortcomings just like every other method we use to hit a cue ball. We, all humans, are poorly designed to play pool.
Compensations and adjustments are required however we try to hit the cue ball with consistent accuracy. I have moved away from the pendulum after trying it over and over but one of the reasons, perhaps the major reason, is stance related. With a lower stance the pendulum is a far more stable and natural stroke than it is with a high stance. With a high stance dictated by other things I can't get comfortable with a pendulum. I use it for some shots but not all.
The perpendicular fore arm is something I am moving away from also, for two reasons. One is my arms. I work with my hands and arms and my muscles are still "loaded" when my forearm is perpendicular to the floor or the cue. This means that my arm is not relaxed in the set position. The other reason is that I learned long ago to hit the cue ball timed early or late in my stroke for speed control. Still works better for me than other methods.
There is a whole wide world outside the box and many things out there that can get the job done. However the things that are in the box are usually there because they work for most people. There is plenty of room for all of us and all of our styles on a pool table.
Hu
Scott,
Please take some remedial courses in reading - you obviously fail
on the understanding content part.
I can only comment on what I have read here, and I have yet to see a single sylable
of factual data to support any of your claims.
I made a post about shooting free throws - another poster
referred to swinging a golf club with his arms straight -
I notice that rather than responding to these challenges, you chose to
insult me - I guess that is something you do understand how to do.
To imply that just because I have the unmittigated gaul to
disagree with you means I don't care about proper stroke mechanics is
both selfserving and specious. You even went so far as to misquote me.
Anyone who cares to check can see that there is precious little
about pool that Spiderweb and I agree on - that should tell you
something about this discussion.
Dale
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Ive watched the link on Spiders first post, and again, to me it looks like Sigel drops his elbow immediately on the forward motion of the final stroke, as opposed to once the tip hits the cueball.
Does anyone else see what I'm seeing?
Does anyone else see what I'm seeing?
I think so b/c his tip is pretty far from the cueball.
If you watch that close-up shot of Tom Cruise stroking on TCOM, you can tell the tip is pretty far from the cueball.
I think he'd miscue if he "brushed" the ball ( downward motion if you don't drop the elbow ).
Of course, you can just throw the cue like Efren and get rid of the argument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwsGF7A90mk
Davenport drops em too.
If the contact of the ball is consistent nothing else matters...look at Jim Furyk's golf swing.
In case anyone missed it, Spidey is snowed in and bored out of his mind. Hence this pointless thread on the virtues of elbow dropping. :wink:
Well, it was either: elbow dropping, CTE, dominant eye stuff or something else controversial. I chose elbow dropping because it wasn't beat to death as much as the other two were.
Face it-- just mention elbow dropping or CTE and you have an automatic 5 pages of polarized views. Makes for good reading material. Doesn't mean I don't have an opinion, as you can see from my posts.
I would like to make one point on the subject. Teaching not dropping the elbow and using the pendilum stroke has proven to successfully help hundreds or thousands of players become more accurate and consistent with their stroke.
If you think your way is better, by all means, continue to shoot that way. But don't knock something that has proven to be extremely successful for so many players.
Steve
If you think your way is better, by all means, continue to shoot that way. But don't knock something that has proven to be extremely successful for so many players.
Steve
Well Said
Steve, you summed it up pretty good. Also, I don't know where this 99% of pro's drop their elbows come from, that is a bet I'll take everyday. Anyone ever see Allison play?? Anyone remember Albert Bell, the baseball player? His swing was "horrible", he did every thing wrong. He would be the guy you would show everyone not to copy. His swing was long, his hands came forward as the pitch was on its way. But because of his amazing ability, and his super quick hands that few people have, he had a pretty fine hitting carrer. 50 HR and 50 Doubles one year with the White Sox. Some people have the talent and skills to get away with "flaws or idiosyncracies". So be it. And if your game is great and your having no problems improving every year and are not missing any routine shots or positioning, your elbow drop is not affecting you because you do have some special skills. Unfortunatley, the rest of the world has limited skill sets and must do with better mechanics and foundations to have shot at being even a little above average. I'm not going to tell Sigel or anyone else that can shoot well to change, but some folks it really hurts their game, and once corrected, they shoot better.
Steve, you summed it up pretty good. Also, I don't know where this 99% of pro's drop their elbows come from, that is a bet I'll take everyday. Anyone ever see Allison play?? Anyone remember Albert Bell, the baseball player? His swing was "horrible", he did every thing wrong. He would be the guy you would show everyone not to copy. His swing was long, his hands came forward as the pitch was on its way. But because of his amazing ability, and his super quick hands that few people have, he had a pretty fine hitting carrer. 50 HR and 50 Doubles one year with the White Sox. Some people have the talent and skills to get away with "flaws or idiosyncracies". So be it. And if your game is great and your having no problems improving every year and are not missing any routine shots or positioning, your elbow drop is not affecting you because you do have some special skills. Unfortunatley, the rest of the world has limited skill sets and must do with better mechanics and foundations to have shot at being even a little above average. I'm not going to tell Sigel or anyone else that can shoot well to change, but some folks it really hurts their game, and once corrected, they shoot better.
Eh- I don't think anyone is knocking not dropping the elbow. I think a few people are questioning how some instructors knock dropping the elbow in general.
From what I know, snooker coaches in england teach players to drop their elbow as part of the follow through to improve timing.
I'm curious if any pool instructors have contacted them and traded notes? It would make for an interesting discussion I would think.
I'm curious if any pool instructors have contacted them and traded notes? It would make for an interesting discussion I would think.
I tend to agree with the minimal elbrow drop way of thinking, but am always open to learning new things.
I think we all agree that dropping the elbow AFTER the cueball has been struck does not hurt the shot. My concern is that if you are in the habbit of dropping the elbow after the shot, it is more likely that in some cases you may allow it to drop before the cueball is struck. Would this thinking be wrong?
I think a better question would be, does dropping the elbow after the cueball is hit ADD anything to the shot? The cueball only knows where it is contacted, which direction it was hit, and how hard it was hit. So for elbow drop to really have any effect I would think that the drop would have to be initiated before contact.
I believe that if the elbow MUST drop for certain shots, the it must be moving BEFORE contact is made. I also believe there are some shots that this may be the case, IF the player can control it and time it properly.
I have not studied it closely yet, but if you watch Sarah Rousey break you will see that she breaks the REALLY hard and she has a lot of movement in her upper arm. I think that is where much of her power comes from.
I would also say if you watched closely on Masseys power shots his arm would be moving before contact.
I would really like to see Max's dvds to see what he says on the subject.
I think we all agree that dropping the elbow AFTER the cueball has been struck does not hurt the shot. My concern is that if you are in the habbit of dropping the elbow after the shot, it is more likely that in some cases you may allow it to drop before the cueball is struck. Would this thinking be wrong?
I think a better question would be, does dropping the elbow after the cueball is hit ADD anything to the shot? The cueball only knows where it is contacted, which direction it was hit, and how hard it was hit. So for elbow drop to really have any effect I would think that the drop would have to be initiated before contact.
I believe that if the elbow MUST drop for certain shots, the it must be moving BEFORE contact is made. I also believe there are some shots that this may be the case, IF the player can control it and time it properly.
I have not studied it closely yet, but if you watch Sarah Rousey break you will see that she breaks the REALLY hard and she has a lot of movement in her upper arm. I think that is where much of her power comes from.
I would also say if you watched closely on Masseys power shots his arm would be moving before contact.
I would really like to see Max's dvds to see what he says on the subject.
ChicagoRJ:
Allison is a big underdog against even the 2nd tier of male pros. Her main weakness is lack of a power stroke (a product of having no elbow drop? possibly).
Everyone:
I would equate having no elbow drop to skiing with a wedge. In skiing, all beginners start learning to ski with a wedge because they wouldn't be able to get anywhere if they tried to ski parallel right off the bat. But once they get more comfortable with skiing, they gradually move to skiing parallel, which is more natural and takes less effort. Its basically a walk before you can run situation
How many A players or better have you seen in person with no elbow drop? I could probably count the number I have seen on one hand.
Obviously the easiest way (not necessarily the best) to attain mechanical consistency is to make the fewest body motions possible aka pendulum stroke. This is good for beginners because it gives them a starting point, something they can do with consistency, before venturing out into the real pool world. The down side is that there is wasted energy in the pendulum stroke and it is difficult to produce at high velocities. Let me explain.
Newton's first law is that an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by another force. If your cue is going straight, it naturally wants to go straight unless you do something to it.
Lets focus on a pure centerball hit for moment because draw, follow, and english and such complicate things somewhat. After a pendulum stroke, your cue's butt is higher and the tip is lower than the original positions. meaning it didn't go straight (vertically). This is evidence that the cue was acted on by other forces (your arm) during the stroke and was made to go through unneccessay changes in momentum. In a pendulum stroke, you push through the cue ball and then inevitably pull up (on the back of the cue, the tip goes down as a result of the lever that is your stroke hand, bridge hand, or a combination of both). In an elbow drop stroke, you just push the cue through the cueball.
Why is this important? Even if the pulling up (on the back of the cue) in the pendulum is completely after the cue ball is gone, it still means you are focused on pulling up, where as you should be focused on making the cue go straight. It also leads me to conclude that you are exerting effort where it need not go.
This wasted effort has several side effects: 1) Your body is making motions that have no impact at all on the cueball. 2) Your cue is not following the path that it naturally wants to go. 3) It means you are focusing on doing somthing that is not necessary. Lets go over these points one by one.
1) Lets say we have a robot modeled after a human arm and it only had to make 1 long straight in shot with 1 set bridge length at 1 set elevation. In this case, it would indeed be easier to design the robot to only do a pendulum stroke and the robot would hit the cueball when its arm was perfectly perpendicular at the exact height intended on the cueball. This is because the robot will hit the cueball the same way regardless of speed.
Unfortunately for us humans, we have bodies that must compensate grip pressure, muscle flex, wrist movement, elastic skin on our grip hands, etc. in order to achieve higher cue speeds. Sure, I can bunt a ball with a perfect pendulum stroke, but there is no way I can get the cue moving at 10+mph with exactly the same mechanics as a bunt. Trying to reproduce that same stroke regardless of speed is futile and wasted effort.
A good example is the Austrailian Oyster's reply to Mike Massey's extreme draw vid. Massey does the shot with an elbow drop and has very nice fluidity and timing. It looks almost natural. I figure even I could get it down after a few tries. The Austrailian Oyster on the other hand does the shot with a "text book perfect" pendulum stroke, no elbow drop what-so-ever. It is one of the most forced, robotic, and ugly power strokes that I have ever seen. Baring weight training, there is no way I could reproduce that stroke. I would go as far to surmise that the Austrailian Oyster even with his so called "perfect pendulum stroke" took more than a few takes on that video and the missed attempts were probably not so pretty. Not to mention he was using a low deflection shaft, which is generally easier to deliver than a standard shaft. Mike doesn't strike me as the type to use a low deflection shaft, although I could be wrong.
2) Lets go back to Mr. Robot. He makes that one long straight in with extreme accuracy, provided it is set up perfectly every time. Unfortunately, variations in bridge length, bridge height, elevation, etc. will prevent him from playing good pool even if you handed Efren himself the controls. Once the cueball gets anywhere near a rail or a ball impedes his bridgehand, its game over for Mr. Robot.
For us humans, who have to deal with even more variations than that, such as lack of metal joints, not being able to grip the exact same spot on the cue every time, having a bridge hand that flexes (even if only very slightly), how is it possible that we can be expected to deliver a cue more accurately to a target that is maybe a square milimeter in width on the cueball when we are making the cue move not only forward, but vertically as well?
Lets say there are two types of consistency, mechanical consistency and cueing consistency. Mechanical consistency is the consistency of the body; how consistent your body is moving, generally the less movement, the better if you want mechanical consistency. Cueing consistency is the consistency of the cuel; how accurately your cue strikes the cueball.
Let me make things simple, mechanical efficiency does not necessarily equate to cueing consistency.
A pendulum stroke means that you only have 1 point in your stroke where the cue strikes precisely where you wanted it to because the tip is moving up and down on the vertical axis. A vertically and horizontally straight stroke, provided it is indeed vertically and horizontally straight has the whole of the stroke length to strike the cue ball where you wanted.
Lets create a thought experiment. We have 2 robots, one delivers the cue like an arrow, basically perfectly parallel to the table. The other delivers the cue in a pendulum stroke, the tip starts from the bridge hand and finishes down on the table. Lets forget about the fact that both of the robots would have trouble bridging over rails and over balls. Next, lets assume you have to position the robots into shots yourself. Which would you rather use, the robot that delivers the cue to the same spot regardless of bridge length, or the one that you have to position at precisely the correct bridge length or else it hits the cueball too low or too high?
Elbow dropping has a purpose, it is to allow the momentum of the cue to travel in the same direction as it was going from the beginning of the stroke. Basically our goal is to let the cue go in as natural a direction as possible. Now a perfectly horizontally and vertically straight stroke is impossible as we are only human, our back stroke naturally raised the back end of the cue (unless you put 2 elbow drops and an elbow raise in your stroke), and the rails tend to disallow for it, but to purposfully not have a vertically straight stroke and put effort into making your stroke not straight is a waste of time.
Now if you naturally have a pendulum stroke and can't get the timing of a straighter stroke down, thats a problem you have to work out with practice or a factor you will have figure out some way to overcome.
3) This one is self explanatory, why focus on doing something that is unnatural and not necessarily better for you?
Lets sum things up.
At slow speeds, provided you set yourself up correctly, there is no real difference between the two strokes unless you are horrible at timing. A person with a horizontally crooked elbow drop stroke will most likely have a crooked pendulum stroke unless he has never held a cue before. At high speeds, the difference is that the elbow drop is not as affected by slight variations in your body, setting, etc. because you have more than 1 point to hit the cue ball precisely where you intended. Also at high speeds, the body isn't wasting effort trying to force the cue on a path it doesn't want to go naturally.
But who knows really, maybe there was a scientific study on people's arms and it figured out that you can be X% more consistent with a pendulum stroke. Even IF that is true, there is no doubt that the elbow drop can be delivered consistently enough for nearly every top pro. Meaning that once you get to a certain level, the one advantage a pendulum stroke might have had is negated. This level is lower than you might think because A players tend to have very consistant strokes. The argument "well do you have as good timing as earl, or X world class player" is thus irrelevant. Add in the fact that the elbow drop allows you to hit more accurately at high speeds. I see no reason at all to develop a pendulum stroke past the "picked up a cue for the first time" stage.
Even if that hypothetical study mentioned earlier was true, you are still sacrificing power for consistency.
In high level pool, stroke is EVERYTHING. If you sacrifice power for consitency you will get beat by the guy who has power and consistency.
I believe the pendulum stroke is great for beginners. Because it is simple and requires very little timing.
I believe when you drop the elbow or snap the wrist you are bringing a second or third joint into the motion and ensuring you have an accelerating stroke at the moment of contact. This is all done with more advanced timing than what a beginner is able to incorperate in their stroke.
I fully believe, but cannot prove, that pro level players use this accelerating stroke to increase their contact time with the ball granted its probably only a few mili seconds but I think that that little extra time is what gives you more awareness of the balls and the table and that is what I this k seperates pros from bangers.
I will concede that you don't have to drop the elbow to have an accelerating stroke but I think that dropping the elbow makes it much easier. I also think its all about the timing.
I believe when you drop the elbow or snap the wrist you are bringing a second or third joint into the motion and ensuring you have an accelerating stroke at the moment of contact. This is all done with more advanced timing than what a beginner is able to incorperate in their stroke.
I fully believe, but cannot prove, that pro level players use this accelerating stroke to increase their contact time with the ball granted its probably only a few mili seconds but I think that that little extra time is what gives you more awareness of the balls and the table and that is what I this k seperates pros from bangers.
I will concede that you don't have to drop the elbow to have an accelerating stroke but I think that dropping the elbow makes it much easier. I also think its all about the timing.
I didn't realize I was doing it, but I have a slight elbow drop. My stance is a little upright, so it's hard to get my grip hand to touch my chest at the finish.
Start the clip at the two minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgQcSmr9l6Q
Is it the inertia of my lower arm that pulls the elbow down, or am I doing it?
Start the clip at the two minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgQcSmr9l6Q
Is it the inertia of my lower arm that pulls the elbow down, or am I doing it?
heh these threads always blow right up don't they?
If I made a living as an instructor, I wouldn't specifically mention elbow drop, either as good or bad. It's clearly necessary on some shots where a longer follow through and a powerful stroke is needed. But those shots should hopefully be few and far between if you're playing good pool.
"okay so what we're looking to do is make an efficient arm movement, and avoid excessive motion... both side to side" [and here you do a goofy chicken wing stroke] .."and up and down" [and here you do a rollercoaster stroke].
See if the student catches the lack of elbow movement when you do your "proper" stroke. If they imitate it and have no elbow drop, don't correct them. If there's just a little bit of elbow drop, don't correct them. If you see something excessive and wasteful... naturally speak up. This approach makes the most sense to me.
If I made a living as an instructor, I wouldn't specifically mention elbow drop, either as good or bad. It's clearly necessary on some shots where a longer follow through and a powerful stroke is needed. But those shots should hopefully be few and far between if you're playing good pool.
"okay so what we're looking to do is make an efficient arm movement, and avoid excessive motion... both side to side" [and here you do a goofy chicken wing stroke] .."and up and down" [and here you do a rollercoaster stroke].
See if the student catches the lack of elbow movement when you do your "proper" stroke. If they imitate it and have no elbow drop, don't correct them. If there's just a little bit of elbow drop, don't correct them. If you see something excessive and wasteful... naturally speak up. This approach makes the most sense to me.
You do drop the elbow. I would recommend taking about half that swing you got going there, man its long, giving a lot of up and down movement. You get a lot of back spin while stroking easy, I think if you get that cue going level you will get even more.
Here is a video I did about the magic rack. I keep my cue level going back and forward. When my cue starts to go up, its time to stop the back stroke or stop the elbow to keep it level. http://azbtv.magnify.net/video/Magic-Rack-2
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