They won't hear you. They didn't hear me 10 years ago; this new group won't hear you today.
They won't hear you. They didn't hear me 10 years ago; this new group won't hear you today.
IMO,
Fred
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More elbow dropping nonsense
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
IMO,
Fred
Dave and Bob Jewett
Both Dave and Bob Jewett are very knowledgeable and capable players. Closely watch Dave's grip and wrist along with his elbow. Watch Bob Jewett's elbow against the nice reference edge of a brick in the wall behind him.
The pendulum is a very simple stroke only using the elbow right?
(Sorry Dave, this is an excellent video but it proves my point that the pendulum is a far more involved stroke than many advocates claim. The last sentence isn't pointed at you or Bob, you two just happened to be the ones in your excellent video that shows things clearly.)
Hu
Both Dave and Bob Jewett are very knowledgeable and capable players. Closely watch Dave's grip and wrist along with his elbow. Watch Bob Jewett's elbow against the nice reference edge of a brick in the wall behind him.
The pendulum is a very simple stroke only using the elbow right?
(Sorry Dave, this is an excellent video but it proves my point that the pendulum is a far more involved stroke than many advocates claim. The last sentence isn't pointed at you or Bob, you two just happened to be the ones in your excellent video that shows things clearly.)
Hu
I have been using the pendulum stroke for a number of years. With my short arms and chin resting on the cue I have a tendency to steer the stroke. I am now experimenting with raising my chin off the cue a few inches (thanks Randy G :thumbup
. This may help anyone who wants a smoother stroke with more follow thru. If your shoulder is lower than your elbow you are just running out of room.
. This may help anyone who wants a smoother stroke with more follow thru. If your shoulder is lower than your elbow you are just running out of room.
If you watch closely, I switch where I grip according to the distance of the shot.
I think this discussion is going in circles at the this point. Theres not much that can be said without repeating ourselves.
I think Spidey's idea of trying to set up a web conference with Del Hill, or any of the snooker instructors is a good idea. In a game that requires so much precision, I would wonder why they do not teach a static elbow.
I can certainly see the short term benefits of this concept. I teach every casual player to keep their elbow still. But if I was involve myself in teaching more regularily I would probably start incorperating an elbow drop in their game once they have become more consistent and are looking to improve the timing of their cue action.
I think Spidey's idea of trying to set up a web conference with Del Hill, or any of the snooker instructors is a good idea. In a game that requires so much precision, I would wonder why they do not teach a static elbow.
I can certainly see the short term benefits of this concept. I teach every casual player to keep their elbow still. But if I was involve myself in teaching more regularily I would probably start incorperating an elbow drop in their game once they have become more consistent and are looking to improve the timing of their cue action.
It can't hurt to try, though.:smile:
Well, Spidey was wrong. Again, I never wrote what he implied I wrote. Shame on him! Normally, I would expect an apology in this sort of situation, but that would require maturity. But that's what makes the Internet so great. Anybody can post whatever they want, and some people will even assume it is fact. :shakehead:Maybe Spidey got it from Post #199. All you Docs look alike/talk alike.Spidey,
I never said you can't get more power with an elbow drop. Where did you get that from?:frown:
Most people can most certainly get more power with elbow drop. For many people, the added power comes from dropping the elbow before CB contact (e.g., see the quote below). Others might get more power with a post-CB-contact elbow drop because they feel more comfortable with the exaggerated follow-through and are able to be less constrained with their pre-CB-contact forward stroke.
FYI, here's a quote from one of my FAQ pages dealing with this topic:
Many people raise their body during the break because they also straighten their arm and/or drop their elbow. These two motions counteract each other, keeping the cue close to level at impact. Also, straightening the arm can allow many people to generate more cue speed by getting more of the shoulder muscles involved. However, accuracy (a center-ball hit on the CB and a square hit on the rack lead ball) are much more important than a little extra power, so body motion should be kept to a minimum if accuracy suffers as a result.
I have tried to use elbow drop and wrist snap to increase power on certain shots (e.g., extreme power draw), and I practiced it quite a bit. I just couldn't be consistent enough to trust it. I'm much more consistent when I keep my elbow still. The only time I drop my elbow is on the break; although, it has taken a lot of practice to get my elbow drop and body lift and lower-tip "set" position to get it to work reasonably well.
Regards,
Dave
JoeyA
Regardless, I still love Spidey (in a macho sort of way) ... I guess I have the Valentines Day spirit. Actually, I seem to love everybody lately, with a certain football game victory still strong in my memory. :grin-loving:
Regards,
Dave
Fred,
Excellent points. Another interpretation is: For a given amount of effort, elbow drop (before tip contact) can result in more cue speed. So it can be about speed, right?
Maybe we should create a list of advantages of why it is good to drop one's elbow before and/or after tip contact. I don't think "during tip contact" is worthy as a separate topic, because it will usually occur with one of the others, and nothing significant can be done during the 0.001 second of tip contact anyway.
Here's a list of possible advantages of dropping one's elbow:
- if dropped before tip contact, it might make it easier to get more cue speed with less overall effort, and more smoothly.
- it might result in less abuse to one's joints and muscle connections with power shots.
- it helps encourages a more-complete follow through.
- it doesn't result in the grip hand or forearm hitting a firm stop (e.g., on the chest).
- it looks smoother, and many people think it looks better.
Here are some possible disadvantages:
- it can be difficult to control the coordinated motion of the shoulder and elbow.
- if the elbow is dropped before tip contact by accident (or by too much), the tip will hit the CB higher than intended (and the cue might bang into the rail).
- it can take a much longer time to master and be consistent with an elbow-drop stroke.
What would you and others add, remove, or change on these lists?
Regards,
Dave
Just for the record, Bob is a much better player than me. He was a past collegiate champion.
Regards,
Dave
Thanks.
Agreed. I wouldn't want to be forced to attempt such a shot in a game situation; or, at least, not often.
I'm pretty sure my elbow was very still, but I can't be totally sure because the arm is not in the camera frame. However, with a pendulum stroke, and a long bridge and stroke length, the grip hand does come up quite a bit on the backstroke. Then it comes back down again on the forward stroke; and if the elbow hasn't moved, the tip will come right back to the original set-position tip-contact point. I think the amount of grip-hand lift in the video is consistent with a fixed-elbow pendulum stroke.
Regards,
Dave
I'm sorry Dave--- I get quick to bunch you into the "do it this way or it's bad" clique. <3 Happy Valentines Day!
On a separate note, take your laptop with a webcam and set it up by your table. Point the cam so we are looking at a side profile and can see your table and your upper arm.
I want you to recite the national anthem (not sing, just say it) before shooting your first shot and the get to work drawing that ball back without moving your elbow (as you claimed in your little clip). That way, you can't edit it and cut out the first 10 missed tries without reciting the anthem each time (prevents cheating).
I'll do the same. Let's do 20 shots. Now, I have a 9' table so when you setup the shot, measure the length between the CB and OB so I can replicate it.
This will be a blast. Who else wants to play? That way, some people might think they drop and don't and vice-versa --- but we can all see what's really happening on a hard draw stroke.
I hope you wanna do this, Dr. Dave -- because this is field data collection-- it's right up your alley. Not to mention, I want to see how everyone else does it as well. I'm dying to pay close attention to everyone's wrist action during this little fun project.
This isn't to poke fun at anyone or myself (I do that too, trust me), I honestly wanna see how people actually shoot.
Who's in? I'm out of town til Monday --- but can do this Monday night and post a youtube video. Anyone else? Dr. Dave? C'mon - this'll be fun.
I think the red statements above are painted with too broad a brush. For me, I would argue that the opposite is true for each. I could prob argue that the pendulum stroke is limiting my follow-through and say it's taking me longer to master certain shots with it. I'm not actually saying that, but my point is it's speculation and conjecture (not sure if it can be proved or disproved without an actual study of players from different levels).
Dave
Thanks. Apology accepted.
I'll be happy to film post whatever you want, after I'm done with Disc V. I'll even be willing to sing (because I'll be so happy to be done with the VEPS project). I also have a bunch of stuff I want to film with the high-speed camera, but I'm putting as much stuff on hold as I can until I'm done with VEPS ... it's been a very time-consuming project, and I need to finish it.
Regards,
Dave
Hmmm
Quote: from Masayoshi: " I think if people other than instructors who benefit from telling people to change their styles endorsed the pendulum stroke, it might give it more credence. I don't think anybody would want to take another lesson from an instructor that said "Everything looks good, go hit a million balls".
****
I'm not sure but are you insinuating that the instructors are acting less than ethical in their desire to help students of the game by intentionally giving them bad advice just to get folks coming back for more lessons?? Just a little insulting IMHO. I'm sure there are enough bad habits out there they don't need to intentionally mislead folks to pay the rent.
And "we" are not all gonna shoot identical; stance, grip, wrist, eyes, aiming system, and I don't believe you need to have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt before you can teach something or before you actuallyy give it a whirl.... Try it, if you no like, you no use no more ...
I'm actually going to try and shoot tonight with nothing but elbow drop just for kicks and giggles...
Quote: from Masayoshi: " I think if people other than instructors who benefit from telling people to change their styles endorsed the pendulum stroke, it might give it more credence. I don't think anybody would want to take another lesson from an instructor that said "Everything looks good, go hit a million balls".
****
I'm not sure but are you insinuating that the instructors are acting less than ethical in their desire to help students of the game by intentionally giving them bad advice just to get folks coming back for more lessons?? Just a little insulting IMHO. I'm sure there are enough bad habits out there they don't need to intentionally mislead folks to pay the rent.
And "we" are not all gonna shoot identical; stance, grip, wrist, eyes, aiming system, and I don't believe you need to have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt before you can teach something or before you actuallyy give it a whirl.... Try it, if you no like, you no use no more ...
I'm actually going to try and shoot tonight with nothing but elbow drop just for kicks and giggles...
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KM,
To clarify; it will be a nice post once he is able to remove all of the "might do this or that" phrases; and substitute "does do this or that". If anyone could do it, it's Dr. Dave.
I would love to do this if there were some hard evidence, indisputable logic, or even strong consensus to create more confidence in some of the statements. When all we have is opinions and anecdotes, I think the "can" and "might" words are appropriate.
Anybody have any other suggestions for things to add, remove, or change?
Regards,
Dave
DD,
You misunderstand. We true fanatic pool players expect YOU to do all of our scientific analysis for us....we're too busy playing pool and expressing our strongly held (if sometimes poorly informed) opinions on internet forums to actually commit to a course of scientific inquiry.
It would be great to take a bunch of beginners, and measure their precision with and without elbow drop.
Not much to add. The primary advantage to the elbow drop is to improve the timing of your stroke, which is more or less covered in your list.
I would remove, "it looks smoother, and many people think it looks better",
Looks aren't nearly as important as effect. Throughout my development I spent time trying to make my fundamentals aesthetically pleasing. Eventually I stopped caring and just wanted to put the balls in the pockets, lol.
The disadvantages you have listed are all more or less connected. They are also not reasons to avoid the technique if we can assume the advantages to be true, at least not for the serious player.
By comparison, it would be akin to shortening your golf swing (ie. bringing the club shaft perpindicular rather parallel), because it's easier to coordinate the action to hit the golf ball consistently.
