More elbow dropping nonsense

[pooltchr]

For the record, the BCA does not tell anyone what to teach or how to teach it. The SPF instructors within the BCA follow a very similar training program, simply because we believe it is the best way to teach the game. Most of us practice what we teach, because we have seen positive results from doing so.

Steve

 

[dr_dave]

Do you mean "pinned elbow for the entire stroke" (i.e., a pure pendulum stroke), or might you also mean "pinned elbow before CB contact" (e.g., a "J" stroke, where the elbow is allowed to drop after CB contact)? I think this is an important question. To me, a pure pendulum stroke and a "J" stroke really aren't that different. The amount of elbow drop after CB contact might vary from one player to the next and from one shot to the next, but if the elbow is pinned before CB contact, then I still think of it as a "pinned-elbow pendulum stroke" (with a relaxed follow-through).

I don't think any pros (or any real %) drop pre-contact. So, I think we're talking about mechanics of follow-through.

If the pros are not dropping the elbow pre-contact, then they have a "pinned-elbow pendulum stroke" into the CB. What happens after CB contact doesn't affect the CB (and it is probably more a matter of personal comfort). As some people have pointed out, one possible concern with post-contact elbow-drop is dropping the elbow early by accident, but pros probably don't do this often.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

As I said, I too think it is important when the elbow drops. However, the initial post was about whether the elbow *does* or *does not* drop, not when. I understand the urge to expand the thread beyond what the original poster wanted, particularly in a case like this where there is a significant difference to what the question means. I was just pointing out that before we get that far, it would be interesting to get some solid examples of well known pros who *do* and *do not* drop their elbows. Then we can go into *when*. As of now, there are *NO* examples offered of pros who pin their elbow. Lets try and fix that first

It is obvious that most pros drop their elbow. We don't need proof for that ... it is everywhere. I thought this was already settled.

Now, the important issue is when the drop occurs. Many people seem to think that most pros don't drop their elbow before CB contact. I'm not sure if this is true of not. If it is true, then most pros have a pinned-elbow pendulum stroke into the CB, and then drop their elbow during the follow-through, after the CB is gone (e.g., to create a relaxed-follow-through "J" stroke).

To me, the interesting question (with a non-obvious answer) is: When do most pros drop their elbow, and does it change much for different types of shots. The pre-contact-elbow-drop seems important in power ("stroke") shots and with the break, but I'm curious about most pool shots where power isn't a big factor.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

For the record, the BCA does not tell anyone what to teach or how to teach it. The SPF instructors within the BCA follow a very similar training program, simply because we believe it is the best way to teach the game. Most of us practice what we teach, because we have seen positive results from doing so.

Steve

I'm not sure how that can be the case. I was just on the BCA Instructor program website and there is a written test and a proficiency test.

If they're not dictating what/how to teach, what the heck are you testing?

For instance, if I was going to show someone how to setup to a ball - I'd bet what I showed them wouldn't be what you would--- and my way is no worse and might be better. Therefore, since you're tested on your knowledge--- it must be compared to something that can be considered core curriculum.

For example, I bet if I took the test and based every answer on the CTEL--- do you think I'd pass? My answer would be ROCK solid - but how would it be scored? If I tell someone that I teach a student to fire their arm through the shot--- would it be marked wrong?

Just trying to get to the bottom of this

Dave

 

[ShootingArts]

pretty much my interests too

I think we can break strokes down into two groups: A pinned elbow pendulum with very tiny shoulder movement. If they relax the muscles and let the arm collapse after the cue ball is hit I think the stroke still falls in this category. If the elbow starts down before contact it is a different shot. Harder to detect but if the follow through is the result of powering through with the shoulder even after contact then JoeW's thoughts about muscles behaving differently do have to be given some consideration and this has to be considered a different shot also.

Then there are simply all other strokes: The pump, and all variety of engaging the shoulder to help power into the cue ball. We can add the side arm and all of the less common strokes here because the debates usually start with the claim that the pendulum is superior to all other strokes.

I'm trying to sort out the value of a "pure pendulum" compared to other strokes. Once multiple compensations are added to keep the cue tip level throughout the stroke or nearing tip contact there is little doubt in my mind that any advantages of the "pure pendulum" disappear.

Hu

It is obvious that most pros drop their elbow. We don't need proof for that ... it is everywhere. I thought this was already settled.

Now, the important issue is when the drop occurs. Many people seem to think that most pros don't drop their elbow before CB contact. I'm not sure if this is true of not. If it is true, then most pros have a pinned-elbow pendulum stroke into the CB, and then drop their elbow during the follow-through, after the CB is gone (e.g., to create a relaxed-follow-through "J" stroke).

To me, the interesting question (with a non-obvious answer) is: When do most pros drop their elbow, and does it change much for different types of shots. The pre-contact-elbow-drop seems important in power ("stroke") shots and with the break, but I'm curious about most pool shots where power isn't a big factor.

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeW]

I'm not sure how that can be the case. I was just on the BCA Instructor program website and there is a written test and a proficiency test.

If they're not dictating what/how to teach, what the heck are you testing?

For instance, if I was going to show someone how to setup to a ball - I'd bet what I showed them wouldn't be what you would--- and my way is no worse and might be better. Therefore, since you're tested on your knowledge--- it must be compared to something that can be considered core curriculum.

For example, I bet if I took the test and based every answer on the CTEL--- do you think I'd pass? My answer would be ROCK solid - but how would it be scored? If I tell someone that I teach a student to fire their arm through the shot--- would it be marked wrong?

Just trying to get to the bottom of this

Dave

Take a look at Bob Jewett's web site where he has the outline / syllabus for the instructor program. You may be surprised.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Take a look at Bob Jewett's web site where he has the outline / syllabus for the instructor program. You may be surprised.

Wasn't surprised at all--- it was exactly what I thought it would be: pendulum stroking, ghost ball, 1 1/8" aiming, etc.

See, if I took that test--- I'd fail because I think most of that stuff is bad information (I don't think pendulum stroking is bad information, but ghost ball and 1 1/8" aiming certainly is, in my humble opinion). I'd go as far as saying I can't imaging how anyone plays without pivoting - but I'm a pool extremist.

 

[dr9ball]

Snipped : I'd go as far as saying I can't imaging how anyone plays without pivoting - but I'm a pool extremist.

Ok next up Spidey's Aim and Pivot english vs. parallel english thread? No snow headed for us but you do know how to keep a thread alive for a couple of weeks.

You going to SBE in Valley Forge Spidey? Might have to look you up for a chat.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Ok next up Spidey's Aim and Pivot english vs. parallel english thread? No snow headed for us but you do know how to keep a thread alive for a couple of weeks.

You going to SBE in Valley Forge Spidey? Might have to look you up for a chat.

I'll be there the entire time. What I meant by pivoting was pivoting from an offset position to center ball (not BHE).

I like to hang near TAR because that's where the fun's at. Hope to see ya then!

Oh yeah....*BUMP*
hahahaha

 

[iusedtoberich]

I just watched a video by Eddie Taylor from the 1990's. He is OLD in the video, but still plays decent. He has an instructional section on it, and some story telling.

In the instructional, he shows the stroke many times, and stresses how important it is to follow through. His fist goes about a foot further than a pendulum stroke would end at, and his elbow drops quite a bit as well. His stance is like many of the other old timers, where in the beginning of the forward stroke, his upper arm is much closer to vertical, compared to today's players that are much closer to horizontal.

He shoots lots of banks as well. Of course its not a continuous take, and they edited out his misses, but it is great shooting nonetheless, of the best banker who ever lived.

Good stuff.

 

[pooltchr]

I'm not sure how that can be the case. I was just on the BCA Instructor program website and there is a written test and a proficiency test.


Dave

In order to enter into or upgrade within the instructor program, everyone must work with either an advanced or master instructor. On my last upgrade, I went to a master instructor and spent 3 days teaching a class with him. I was given a written test to complete in the evening. The test was based on a combination of the BCA rulebook contents, and questions about teaching techniques. (Example: Explain how you can effectively use video analysis when working with students) I was also given a written evaluation of my ability to teach advanced level students, based on his observations while we were teaching the class.
I'm sure that had I gone to another instructor for that upgrade, the test questions may have been different, but still designed to evaluate my ability to teach. Since each instructor, much like each student, is an individual, there isn't a "one size fits all" program.

That being said, I can state that many of us do work closely together. Last year, RandyG and I sat in my dining room, me reading his workbook as he read mine. I saw things in his book that I asked to use in mine, and he asked for copies of some of what was in my workbook. We talk, work, discuss, and evaluate everything we teach. Sometimes we come up with a better way, and when that happens, the word gets passed around. I haven't seen Scott in person in over a year, but I would be willing to bet that his workbook and mine are nearly identical in the material we cover. When we get together, 90% of our conversations are about pool, and teaching pool.

So while there is no mandate to "teach it this way, or else", a good many of us work by concensus to make sure we are teaching the right things the right way.

And whether or not you agree with what we do, you have to admit that, based on the feedback that many posters on this forum have put up here over the years, there must be something about it that works. If we were selling snake oil, don't you think someone would have been on here to expose us?

While I won't mention names out of respect for their privacy, I had a couple of highly ranked WPBA players go through the class, and the feedback I got was very positive.

It may not be for everybody, but it's gold to a large majority of players.

Steve

 

[SpiderWebComm]

In order to enter into or upgrade within the instructor program, everyone must work with either an advanced or master instructor. On my last upgrade, I went to a master instructor and spent 3 days teaching a class with him. I was given a written test to complete in the evening. The test was based on a combination of the BCA rulebook contents, and questions about teaching techniques. (Example: Explain how you can effectively use video analysis when working with students) I was also given a written evaluation of my ability to teach advanced level students, based on his observations while we were teaching the class.
I'm sure that had I gone to another instructor for that upgrade, the test questions may have been different, but still designed to evaluate my ability to teach. Since each instructor, much like each student, is an individual, there isn't a "one size fits all" program.

That being said, I can state that many of us do work closely together. Last year, RandyG and I sat in my dining room, me reading his workbook as he read mine. I saw things in his book that I asked to use in mine, and he asked for copies of some of what was in my workbook. We talk, work, discuss, and evaluate everything we teach. Sometimes we come up with a better way, and when that happens, the word gets passed around. I haven't seen Scott in person in over a year, but I would be willing to bet that his workbook and mine are nearly identical in the material we cover. When we get together, 90% of our conversations are about pool, and teaching pool.

So while there is no mandate to "teach it this way, or else", a good many of us work by concensus to make sure we are teaching the right things the right way.

And whether or not you agree with what we do, you have to admit that, based on the feedback that many posters on this forum have put up here over the years, there must be something about it that works. If we were selling snake oil, don't you think someone would have been on here to expose us?

While I won't mention names out of respect for their privacy, I had a couple of highly ranked WPBA players go through the class, and the feedback I got was very positive.

It may not be for everybody, but it's gold to a large majority of players.

Steve

Everything I read about you guys is super positive. I was just curious if you "had" to conform to certain techniques.

Thanks for the insight.
Dave

 

[Cameron Smith]

In the interest of fairness, here is Neil Robertson. He is fairly close to being a pendulum player. The elbow drops slightly on ocassion, but he is a good example nonetheless.

For those who don't know of him, he is a top snooker player. Well known for his stroke shots. The match is from a semi final of the World Championships in 2009.

Watch from 3:00 for a good view of his stroke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXcI-cBGJLw

By contrast his opponent Shaun Murphy is very much on the other side of the spectrum. The whole match has been uploaded, I recommend it if you have the time.

 

[JoeW]

Joe,

Which stroke do you use? Your characterization of the "piston" stroke does not mesh with my experience much. When I set up, I am using my shoulder muscles to support my upper arm in a particular position. When I stroke, I relax those muscles, allowing the elbow to basically fall straight down. My entire arm experiences a release of tension when I stroke. My wrist is just along for the ride. I would say that I use less effort to accomplish the stroke, though I would admit the possibility that this effort is distributed over more muscles.

KMRUNOUT

I very much like your imagery here. It is an interesting way to think about the piston stroke and I suspect that it adds to the ability to develop this type of stroke.

None-the-less, what I was referring to was the anticipation of muscle use. In a sense, it seems to me that you are referring to a controlled fall. That is the brain anticipates the fall and the guidance of that fall. If you have ever watched an olympic diver on a three meter board you will see that they approach their dive with what is called a hurdle. One leg is raised far above the board. The other leg follows this jump or hurdle and the diver "falls" onto the spring board that propels him into the air. This is a highly controlled fall in which gravity is used to create power but the body muscles guide the fall. Something like this occurs with the controlled fall of the bicep in a psiton stroke. Additional muscle guidance is required for that perfect fall. In most acts of this nature the process is subconscious or we would not be able to do it with any sort of grace and dexterity.

During the stroke the muscles are used to guide the stroke. While the fall is in progress the other muscles in the forearm and the wrist are being readied or are already in use to propel through an interrupted pendulum stroke (if that is used).

One of the interesting ideas that results from this type of thinking is that the piston player is using their muscles in a different way than the pendulum player. There are probably additional muscles and the guidance that would come from a different emphasis that may provide better guidance for the stick.

In any case, the imagery of allowing the upper arm to fall and not "forcing" the movement is quite powerful. When I tried this controlled fall at the table it seemed to result in a more natural piston stroke that was more effective than my prior attempts.

It is interesting how words and imagery can have a significant impact on what is done. The idea of allowing the arm to drop versus forcing the arm to drop results in a much smoother transition and that is what we are all looking for -- that smooth stroke.

 

[JoeW]

After learning how to imagine and subsequently make that smooth transition to a piston stroke I now wonder if instructors are not completing their students' education.

I learned to use the pendulm stroke in a school a few years ago and it worked well. However, I can now see where allowing (not forcing) the arm to drop appears to result in a smoother stroke and that I have better follow through. I am still of the opinion that if many many pros use it there must be something to it. If only one or two pros used it it would be less meaningful. If a great many pros use it then it must be effective and something that one should learn.

Perhaps it is just the Hawthorne Effect (anything new produces a positive change) but I can "feel" a better stroke using this process. I think that I am being converted to a pendulum - piston stroke.

Steve pointed out that instructors are (as they should be) continully studying their craft. This may be a fundemental issue that warrents further study.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

In the interest of fairness, here is Neil Robertson. He is fairly close to being a pendulum player. The elbow drops slightly on ocassion, but he is a good example nonetheless.

For those who don't know of him, he is a top snooker player. Well known for his stroke shots. The match is from a semi final of the World Championships in 2009.

Watch from 3:00 for a good view of his stroke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXcI-cBGJLw

By contrast his opponent Shaun Murphy is very much on the other side of the spectrum. The whole match has been uploaded, I recommend it if you have the time.

Neil is moving his elbow on back swing and follow through. It is not much, because his arm is aligned properly so he doesn't need to move it much. But it's still there, and it is not a pendulum. Almost all snooker pros use a piston like stroke.
Watch John Higgins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TB0_7f5ft4

 

[Russ Chewning]

After learning how to imagine and subsequently make that smooth transition to a piston stroke I now wonder if instructors are not completing their students' education.

I learned to use the pendulm stroke in a school a few years ago and it worked well. However, I can now see where allowing (not forcing) the arm to drop appears to result in a smoother stroke and that I have better follow through. I am still of the opinion that if many many pros use it there must be something to it. If only one or two pros used it it would be less meaningful. If a great many pros use it then it must be effective and something that one should learn.

Perhaps it is just the Hawthorne Effect (anything new produces a positive change) but I can "feel" a better stroke using this process. I think that I am being converted to a pendulum - piston stroke.

Steve pointed out that instructors are (as they should be) continully studying their craft. This may be a fundemental issue that warrents further study.

JoeW,

This is exactly what is happening during the elbow drop.. A "controlled fall". If one thinks of purposely dropping the elbow, the wrong muscles will be used, and the stroke will seem forced.

I had been struggling with my stroke lately, and I had made a concerted effort to get out to more weekend tournaments to be around better players.

While I did not consciously emulate the other players, I did find myself "letting" my elbow drop naturally at the end of my stroke, resulting in a huge increase in pocketing accuracy. The uptick in my game was enough for Little Al Mason to buy me in the calcutta for Rackem Zackem's Lewisville handicapped tournament this past weekend. I came about 3 places (out of 51 players) from getting in the calcutta money.

I realize now that I did some fairly major damage to my stroke trying to implement a pure pendulum stroke. Maybe it "can" work as well as an elbow drop stroke, but not for me. I have invested too much time in the game to change what was working great for me.

If a player has not yet reached a high level of play, then by all means, experiment with different stroke types. Personally, I "found" the elbow drop stroke when I was about 19 by reading how top players would stroke into a piece of chalk or a bottle, and when I tried it myself, I noticed the cue tip stayed parallel to the table bed, which intuitively seemed like a good thing.

I worked it into my game, and I made a permanent jump in my skill level. I then lost it for a while by not both not playing, and by letting conflicting theories on the proper stroke interfere with what I knew to work for me.

Russ

 

[JoeW]

JoeW,

This is exactly what is happening during the elbow drop.. A "controlled fall". If one thinks of purposely dropping the elbow, the wrong muscles will be used, and the stroke will seem forced.


If a player has not yet reached a high level of play, then by all means, experiment with different stroke types. Personally, I "found" the elbow drop stroke when I was about 19 by reading how top players would stroke into a piece of chalk or a bottle, and when I tried it myself, I noticed the cue tip stayed parallel to the table bed, which intuitively seemed like a good thing.

I worked it into my game, and I made a permanent jump in my skill level. I then lost it for a while by not both not playing, and by letting conflicting theories on the proper stroke interfere with what I knew to work for me.

Russ

I observed in Hall - Strickland video that both players appear to keep their sticks parallel to the table when striking the cue ball above center for max top spin. During these strokes there was no attempt to have the stick hit the table. Perhaps that stroking in a bottle was used to learn this type of stroke. I'll have to try that -- Thanks

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hmmm Russ. Maybe you shouldn't be on a short bus?

This just brought something to my attention. The BCA Instructor Program has something called SEAL OF APPROVAL for training products and playing aids that help players. It's a "seal of quality" for the pool community.

Here's what makes zero sense (someone explain it to me-- because I'm honestly lost):

When you get the the SEAL OF APPROVAL page on their site, if you scroll down: http://www.bca-pool.com/play/instruction/seal.shtml

... you will see the Buddy Hall Cue Guide. Now, what's confusing is if the BCA Instructor Program teaches the pendulum swing as a part of its core curriculum, then how did this product get a seal of approval??? Meaning, if I get a pendulum lesson and then buy this product--- there's no way I can use it!!!! I need an elbow drop to successfully not touch the sides! Otherwise, the tip dips and bangs into the plastic. So, the BCA gives seals of approvals to products that train people away from what they teach.

Also, that Buddy Hall video discusses "Tuck and rolling." I doubt that's part of the curriculum as well.

 

[JoeW]

Hall's tools are for post graduate work only.