More elbow dropping nonsense
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
Yeah but what you will notice is that in the last 15 years the stroke has actually gone more towards an elbow drop then vice versa. The stroke of the Phillipino players such as Busta and Efren has alot of enlow drop and long follow through that actually requirs more elbow drop then in the past. And more and more players are now adopting that, and players are shooting better then ever according to the "old players vs new" threads that pop up here all the time.
Things will change, pro's will adpat there game to what works, but that direction is not going towards the pendulum stroke.
I agree totally that if you have a totally raw student with no skill or style that a pendulum stroke is a great place to start to teach then how to shoot pool. I would actually go so far as to say it might be the best place to start just for the reasons you mention.
But IMO what Stan said about Landon is going to be true for most players at a certain point in their pool playing careers, they are going to start to adopt some elbow drop in some shots and adopt more of a "j stroke" as it has now been termed on this thread because some elbow drop actually seems to accomodate a higher caliber of play as is evidenced by the professional ranks that DO actually have some bearing on this debate because if there was a better way to do things that was known at all, they would be doing it, especially the younger generation of players that had access to the pendulum stroke.
In theory everything you say makes sense, the pendulum strokes seems super repeatable and should be dominating the world, in practice it is not making a blip at the top ranks, and that is why some people have such a strong opinion on it being pushed as the proper way to teach players of all levels to shoot, which is what the BCA instructors do.
Its not my norm to respond this type of discussion. Usually I have much better ways to waste time and energy. Got to love the new ways of describing whats happened for years. The so called elbow drop is really an upper arm drop from the shoulder. The elbow just happens to be attached to the upper arm. I think the proverbial pinned elbow may be better described as a pinned shoulder. But wait the shoulder in a cast may be better. In the end if the reader understands what they really mean I suppose it doesn't matter.
In this aspect I really don't care what the pro's do. I don't know why it matters but if you think it does then you do. To me its just a normal way to release through the c/b. I use a pendulum stroke but with significant power I let my upper arm go on through. As I said to me its perfectly natural. I mean why would I want to stop a natural effect. Ok my times up for this stuff, continue on.
Rod
In this aspect I really don't care what the pro's do. I don't know why it matters but if you think it does then you do. To me its just a normal way to release through the c/b. I use a pendulum stroke but with significant power I let my upper arm go on through. As I said to me its perfectly natural. I mean why would I want to stop a natural effect. Ok my times up for this stuff, continue on.
Rod
No, that is NOT what the BCA instructors do. When students come to us, we usually try to find out why they are there, and what they hope to accomplish. Then we do a vide review of what they are doing. Then, based on what they are doing, and what they want to be doing, we offer suggestions. Let's try this....let's try that. No BCA instructor I know has ever told a student they must do it this way. We ask our students to be open minded enough to try things and see how they work.
We don't push people to do things "our way". We help them find the best way for them to achieve their goals. Funny thing...many who actually try the pendilum stroke, actually like the results.
If you want to post about what BCA instructors do, please make sure what you post is correct.
Thank you
Steve
I only post what I know from blowing $100 on a course from a well respected BCA instructor and going through hours of pendulum stroke, 1-handed stroke with the cue on the rail and watch the tip dive into the cloth, video analysis with the focus solely on how still the elbow is through the shot.
If my experience was not what the BCA instruction is supposed to be about I wonder what my chances on getting that $100 back. Rhetorical question, I already know the answer.
you can see the difference yourself
Celtic,
You said it yourself. Your post included personal attack. He attacked viewpoints. Neil and I don't agree 100% on everything each of us has said about strokes in this thread. Part of it is I was looking at not only the pendulum stroke but the entire stroke that the instructors seem to favor as indicated on these forums. Neil is looking only at the pure pendulum. The two strokes are a ways apart. The point being that we could disagree, "attack" each other's viewpoints in your way of putting it, without attacking each other. You can see the difference as indicated in the wording of your post.
Disagreeing is well within the ROE of the forums. There can't be much discussion if everyone agrees on everything. Attacking other posters is specifically prohibited.
(included text, quote from ROE)
To be included, there will be no ad hominem attacks. No name calling nor insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but calling them an idiot because of their opinion is not.
All posts will be kept civil.
(end included text)
Take a good look at your post. Would you address someone whom you were having a friendly face to face discussion with like that? I don't think that some of the mod's would split hairs over calling somebody an idiot or asking if they have any common sense in the "tone" that you did. Earlier sentences in the same post could not be considered "civil" either. There is a line between disagreeing with what a person states in their post and attacking the person. The things you said and I highlighted in your own post make it plain you are well aware of that.
Hu
Celtic,
You said it yourself. Your post included personal attack. He attacked viewpoints. Neil and I don't agree 100% on everything each of us has said about strokes in this thread. Part of it is I was looking at not only the pendulum stroke but the entire stroke that the instructors seem to favor as indicated on these forums. Neil is looking only at the pure pendulum. The two strokes are a ways apart. The point being that we could disagree, "attack" each other's viewpoints in your way of putting it, without attacking each other. You can see the difference as indicated in the wording of your post.
Disagreeing is well within the ROE of the forums. There can't be much discussion if everyone agrees on everything. Attacking other posters is specifically prohibited.
(included text, quote from ROE)
To be included, there will be no ad hominem attacks. No name calling nor insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but calling them an idiot because of their opinion is not.
All posts will be kept civil.
(end included text)
Take a good look at your post. Would you address someone whom you were having a friendly face to face discussion with like that? I don't think that some of the mod's would split hairs over calling somebody an idiot or asking if they have any common sense in the "tone" that you did. Earlier sentences in the same post could not be considered "civil" either. There is a line between disagreeing with what a person states in their post and attacking the person. The things you said and I highlighted in your own post make it plain you are well aware of that.
Hu
I wasn't really asking any questions. If I shared my honest opinion on this subject I might get stoned to death. But ...
Neil said:
I know you weren't talking to me directly but I feel like I have to respond to that, becuase I am basically on Celtic's side.
I started playing pool 5 years ago. One year later I bought a 20 year old cue for 100$, that's supposed to be a "professional". I don't really know what that is, and I don't even care. I'm playing with that cue ever since. It feels good. It has dozens of scratches. But as long as it's straight and in one piece, I'm not going to buy another one.
I also didn't have a real instructor who told me how to play. Instead I learned that from the internet.
http://www.easypooltutor.com/articles.html
This was my main resource for pool knowledge. I read every article and thus learned about the pendulum stroke. My clubmates also told me, that in order to develope a good stroke, I shouldn't drop my elbow. It is common "knowledge". Later when a sort of semi-instructor came along, he told me the same thing. He helped me further improving my game. So I really had the pendulum stroke. I was there.
Then several things happened. First, I got stuck. There was no improvement on my game anymore. Just gaining experience. I didn't feel the learning process anymore. People told me if I had more talent, I would already play better. I couldn't accept that. Talent is just another word for someone accidentally doing things right. So I wanted to figure it out. The instructor couldn't really help me, so I had to do it on my own.
I also watched snooker on TV (I should probably tell you that where I live there is no pool on TV, just snooker). And when I compared the snooker pros to the pool pros I've seen on YT I noticed an interesting fact. The snooker pros move the cue stick on a rail. Most pool pros don't. Some of them stroke slightly to the left or to the right (watch Souquet or Strickland if you are interested, and watch CLOSELY), but ALL of them have up and down movements. So I asked myself, wouldn't it be better if you can move the cue on a rail without any side or up/down movement? Why aren't the pool pros doing it? When I asked other players including my semi-instructor, I only got unsatisfying answers like "pool is not snooker", "snooker table is higher", "balls are smaller" and so on. But snooker pros need even more accuracy in their shotmaking than pool pros, right? And I knew from experience that it is more difficult to execute a good draw shot on a snooker table than it is on a pool table. Ok, that's just MY experience, but others agreed with me. So I concluded, that snooker pros have better fundamentals. That was fine with me. The reason was obvious: In pool the pockets are more generous. I thought, maybe you can sacrifice some accuracy for feel and touch.
So how did this help my game? Well one thing led to another. I spent much time experimenting and practicing. And I found that in order to eliminate side to side and up/down movement during stroke, I HAVE to move my elbow. Then I watched the pros again and paid attention to their elbows. As you already know they are all elbow droppers. So is the whole "don't drop your elbow" story just crap? Honestly I think it is.
After much practice (ALONE) I developed a technique you could call a snooker-pool-hybrid, and it is working out great. The cue goes, where the elbow goes. There is more freedom in my stroke than before and at the same time it is straight and consistent - repeatable.
Before that, I was known for my slow (and boring) playing style. I had to concentrate 101% on every ******* shot. There were no hangers. It sometimes felt like hard work. I basically got my potting skills by experience, like "this shot has to feel like that, and this has to look like that ..."
Now I've become so fast because it is easier. Long straight in shots are not a problem anymore. It doesn't matter if the cueball is on the rail. Just aim right and shoot straight. No mystery involved. It's also more fun like this. Really the only thing that can be off is my aim. I am not afraid of any shot. There is room for improvement again.
Of course that doesn't mean you can't get a good stroke with a pure pendulum, but if it is possible, it is too difficult for me! And that's the point. It may be easily repeatable to only move your forearm, but just because something is easy to understand and easy to repeat doesn't mean the results will be great. They may be consistently bad. And in this case, imo they are. I'm not just saying this because all the pros drop their elbow or because I don't care about good mechanics. On the contrary, I have a fetish for good mechanics and I think that most pool pros don't have good ones.
There is also the phenomenon that instructors who tell you not to drop your elbow usually drop their elbow on every shot themselves. And when you ask them why they do it if it's so bad, they come up with excuses like they don't have enough time to practice. Well really? The only one I have seen not dropping his elbow and actually having a good stroke is ... omg ... why ... T. White. But even there, it looks forced and unneccessary.
Now I don't want to offend anyone here, I don't know any of you people - except Blackjack, I love his 14.1 instructions. This is just a feeling, but I get the impression that the classic pendulum stroke is mainly taught and propagated by older players. I predict, that the pendulum stroke will eventually die. 100 years ago, players were taught to stand upright. Things change. When I look at younger players around here, I see them getting down on the shots so low with their chin touching the cue, all of them. I see elbows drop everywhere. Their strokes are getting straight and solid. Watch Landon's technique. We will see that a lot in the future.
Now, kill me!
There is also the phenomenon that instructors who tell you not to drop your elbow usually drop their elbow on every shot themselves. And when you ask them why they do it if it's so bad, they come up with excuses like they don't have enough time to practice. Well really?
Well then, you haven't seen any good instructors...because the good ones practice what they preach!
This is just a feeling, but I get the impression that the classic pendulum stroke is mainly taught and propagated by older players. I predict, that the pendulum stroke will eventually die. Wanna bet?100 years ago, players were taught to stand upright. Lots of them still do!Things change. When I look at younger players around here, I see them getting down on the shots so low with their chin touching the cue, all of them. You need to get out more, and see other players (not just in "your area". Not everyone gets so low over the cue.I see elbows drop everywhere. Their strokes are getting straight and solid. Watch Landon's technique. We will see that a lot in the future.
Now, kill me!
You have admittedly been playing a whole 5 years. Give yourself another 20 and then see if your predictions come true. I, for one, doubt it.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I don't know which well respected BCA instructor you went to, but if you got a $100 lesson, you probably didn't get a full course. And, if the video analysis only looked at what your elbow was doing, it wasn't a thorough analysis. When Scott, Randy, and I, along with several other instructors do a video analysis, we can spend an hour or more just on that one thing. Then there is at least a couple more hours of table time to follow-up with what was observed.
I'm not asking who your instructor was, I don't want to know. But many of us won't even book an hour or two session with students. It's not enough time to accomplish anything.
As for getting your money back, that would be up to that well respected instructor. If it happened to be Scott, I know if you weren't pleased with the session, you wouldn't have even paid for it in the first place.
You can't judge all instructors based on your experience with one. Did you do any research before you booked your lesson? Did you talk with any of his former students? Did you check with anyone who took lessons a year ago to see if they had seen any improvement as a result of their lessons?
It's a business transaction, and just like a car mechanic, or plumber, there are some who are better than others.
And part of it falls to you. Instructors can only share information. If you don't do anything to follow up with what was presented, you aren't going to see any results.
Steve
Your observations above are some of the reasons I've always had trouble with the Coke bottle exercise, or the Stroke Trainer thingie. If you do them, you will only get good at doing those things. Their relationship to a real-life pool stroke, IMO, is somewhat questionable, YMMV.
Lou Figueroa
Consider yourself killed!
Actually, stop and think a minute. The stroke you are using now is very much like our everyday actions. Pick a very small spot on your computer screen and reach out and touch it. Odds are that you did two things: One, you touched exactly where you wanted to on the first try. Two, you executed an extremely complex motion. You used muscles in your torso all the way to your fingers. You used joints at least all the way from your shoulders to your fingers. If you try to touch that same spot twenty-five times you can do that without difficulty too. Hmmm, accurate and repeatable!
Neil has simplified the pendulum from what I understand many instructors to teach and gets the same result, a very accurate and repeatable stroke.
Trying to get a level motion in the cue tip throughout the stroke complicates the pendulum but once again can be learned and can be accurate and repeatable.
Hopkins' very short stroke, accurate and repeatable.
Keith's sidearm, accurate and repeatable.
Some folks might be starting to notice a pattern here . . . .
Hu
Actually, stop and think a minute. The stroke you are using now is very much like our everyday actions. Pick a very small spot on your computer screen and reach out and touch it. Odds are that you did two things: One, you touched exactly where you wanted to on the first try. Two, you executed an extremely complex motion. You used muscles in your torso all the way to your fingers. You used joints at least all the way from your shoulders to your fingers. If you try to touch that same spot twenty-five times you can do that without difficulty too. Hmmm, accurate and repeatable!
Neil has simplified the pendulum from what I understand many instructors to teach and gets the same result, a very accurate and repeatable stroke.
Trying to get a level motion in the cue tip throughout the stroke complicates the pendulum but once again can be learned and can be accurate and repeatable.
Hopkins' very short stroke, accurate and repeatable.
Keith's sidearm, accurate and repeatable.
Some folks might be starting to notice a pattern here . . . .
Hu
pooltchr said:
Well. I practiced for about 3 hours with CJ Wiley a few weeks ago. He explained something I was doing wrong. Took him about 20 minutes.
He did not try to change my stroke. He simply told me to change the way I hit cut shots, and it improved my game a ball.
Overnight.
I am NOT exaggerating, here. I had not placed in the money in even the mid level events here in TX. He took 20 minutes with me, and within two weeks, I had Little Al Mason buying me in the calcutta for a Dallas area handicapped tourney. And he was sidebetting on me against some of the best players in the field, getting three games. And winning!
I took a lesson with a BCA ceritified instructor. He attempted to get me to remove the elbow drop out of my stroke. It did a lot of damage to my game.
Personally, I think that the BCA program has WAY too much of a cookie cutter approach. I would have been much better served by getting an hour lesson from someone who could work with what I was bringing to the table.
I may joke about my C player status, but I am NO novice.
A legitimate C player can benefit from a cookie cutter approach. Once that player reaches strong B status, then it is time for his instructor to teach more advanced concepts.Russ
As some have observed in the Pop-up Ad thread, a discussion forum is more about the posts members write, than much else. IOW, we come here to read what other have to say, whether we agree or not, and almost everything else is secondary. Put another way, the posters are the stars of this rodeo -- no good posters, no good rodeo. Besides, if everyone on a forum were politically correct all the time, it would be a very boring place.
Lou Figueroa
One little nit-pick: yes, the elbow can drop on a power stroke, but it can also drop on an easy stroke. I know I do it sometimes when I'm trying to achieve a very slow well-calibrate stroke speed for position.
Lou Figueroa