Mosconi cup

Cue Alchemist

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Oscar was a great player, but he has no chance against the top guns from Europe at this point in his career. I don't know if Billy Thorpe was still banned from this Mosconi cup due to the drug test issue, but if not, I would have put him in as a captain's pick. Chris Reinhold or Josh Roberts would have also been better picks. Joey Tate showed promise at the US Open, so even he would have given us a better shot, IMO.
Didn't Oscar qualify through ranking points? 2nd behind Shane. I know the difference was over 40 points. But he did do enough to justify his place. By playing the tournaments.
 

decent dennis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All due respect-if you’re on the Mcup that’s not the place to learn. It’s a place for people who have “learned” to compete. There’s no excuse in the world to miss BIH on the 8 to get to the hill breaking.

Best
Fatboy
Didn't miss with ball in hand. Missed with ball in hand position.
 

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
nobody was talking about it in the days we were kicking their ass. Why now?
Well I wouldn't describe it as kicking their ass. That hasn't happened in a pretty long time. I've always believed our team should be The Americas purely based on population.
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
God reading people on fb blaming picking earl for the loss it ridiculous . We lost because they were better . Much better. It was the same show we see virtually every year. When the euro’s get an out on an open table they are out!. we blow at least one open out a set and in a race to 5 that’s death! It makes the rolls the euro’s get much bigger because they take advantage of it every single time. Skyler dogs a simple 6 ball on his way to the hill. That’s all they needed and it was over. We don’t have 5 players we can put up man for man to go up against the euro’s.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First of all, bravo to the U.S. team, they did as best as can be expected given the circumstance. Since 2006, Europe has the U.S. beat 12-3 by my count.

Europe simply has more tournament playing talent right now and for the foreseeable future. Do not expect the U.S. to be competitive / gain parity for at least the next 8-10 years contingent upon the U.S. starting today to fix the issues. Europe could have dropped 3 of their players on their roster, and immediately replaced them with players who did not qualify that are still better than most on the U.S. side.

****

I been wondering WHY is this the case?

The U.S. has two problems, one is that currently they are not fielding the best possible team based on existing talent and there's many reason for this which is directly related to why pool is in decline in the US, and secondly that decline is limiting the availability of new talent. Fielding the best possible team at the moment still won't resolve lagging behind the EU, but it would make more of these cups closer.

Regarding the first problem, it's the lack of money in the game for U.S players. The lack of money means that those able to make a living from pool are fewer because the "living wage" money is only had at the elite levels of professional pool. Being pro is not enough, you must be elite pro. (just look at the earnings list, factor in expenses, taxes to see what is left and it becomes clear) This all has to be weighed against your effort. To maintain that level of play to be competitive is a full-time for pros, full-life commitment for elite pro level players. We have seen incredible talents of this game walk away, in their prime years...or become part time players.

As for the second problem, I could write a novel on all the factors for that, but there's plenty of dozen-page long threads over the last 20 years on this forum that discuss the decline of pool in America. Rather, better to point out what happened in Europe.

Despite there not being much money in Europe either, they maintained pool as a dignified and professional sport. Even if not the most popular there, or with much money. Tournaments were held in nice venues. Players were held to certain standards. Matches got airtime on television. Guys, Euro Tour prize money was not that good...

While in the USA we were in a modern golden-age of pool talent with our pros in the 1990's ...the European pool youth saw this, looked up to it, inspired by it and dreamed of being champions. Their tournaments were there, they have something to look forward to. How did they look up to this? You have to be able to see something to look up to it. They saw pro pool, while our youth did not due to a near total television blackout of the sport. There are many other factors.

Anyway, I suspect today the economic culture of the EU play a role in allowing for more pool players to survive while playing the game they do. It is more feasible for them to play the game professionally and full time, even if they are not making a big living from it. You can be a lower income person in Europe and survive than you can in the U.S.. At least in Europe you can be poor and go to the doctor. A pool player here has no health care. This and many other social economic factors makes pool a non-option for Americans. American pool players have to decide between pool and a family. Can't support a family on pool. Few will find a wife who can bring in enough support to make up for it. Tough life. Mom working to pay the bills, while pool pro dad is on the road all the time slugging it out in tournaments for small winnings. My guess is, not a lot of takers for that lifestyle. Not exactly a high demand thing. Alternatively, you can do the non-family thing, and still struggle to survive.

On the international level, it pays the same for EU players as it does for US players....EU players come to US tournaments. US players rarely go to EU tournaments.

It comes down to this....EU players for various reason can get by with whatever prize money is available in pool both locally and internationally and via sponsorships. US players cannot. I say cannot, instead of will not because they love the game just as much and already have sacrificed so much. US players need higher prize money availability and it being spread more, that is, to reach a little further down the ranks.

well reasoned post. living costs in many euro countries are as high or higher than in the US:


still players from these countries go play in the eurotour with its dimmunitive prize money.
 

VTEC John

Active member
On the page below, if you clicked on the plus sign beside "Match Schedule" to expand that section, Matchroom was actually doing live scoring for the matches in real time, and then of course they left the final score up for all the completed matches. I was pleasantly surprised myself to see that they were doing this.
Crikey, they need help with their website copy. No one is going to assume that clicking on "Match Schedule" will take them to real-time results.
 

VTEC John

Active member
Isn’t that the same thing?
It's not accurate to say he had ball in hand position. If he'd had ball in hand, he'd have repositioned the cue ball so he didn't have to worry at all about catching the corner of the side pocket on the draw (or even scratching in the side) which may well be what caused him to force the shot a little and miss.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First of all, bravo to the U.S. team, they did as best as can be expected given the circumstance. Since 2006, Europe has the U.S. beat 12-3 by my count.

Europe simply has more tournament playing talent right now and for the foreseeable future. Do not expect the U.S. to be competitive / gain parity for at least the next 8-10 years contingent upon the U.S. starting today to fix the issues. Europe could have dropped 3 of their players on their roster, and immediately replaced them with players who did not qualify that are still better than most on the U.S. side.

****

I been wondering WHY is this the case?

The U.S. has two problems, one is that currently they are not fielding the best possible team based on existing talent and there's many reason for this which is directly related to why pool is in decline in the US, and secondly that decline is limiting the availability of new talent. Fielding the best possible team at the moment still won't resolve lagging behind the EU, but it would make more of these cups closer.

Regarding the first problem, it's the lack of money in the game for U.S players. The lack of money means that those able to make a living from pool are fewer because the "living wage" money is only had at the elite levels of professional pool. Being pro is not enough, you must be elite pro. (just look at the earnings list, factor in expenses, taxes to see what is left and it becomes clear) This all has to be weighed against your effort. To maintain that level of play to be competitive is a full-time for pros, full-life commitment for elite pro level players. We have seen incredible talents of this game walk away, in their prime years...or become part time players.

As for the second problem, I could write a novel on all the factors for that, but there's plenty of dozen-page long threads over the last 20 years on this forum that discuss the decline of pool in America. Rather, better to point out what happened in Europe.

Despite there not being much money in Europe either, they maintained pool as a dignified and professional sport. Even if not the most popular there, or with much money. Tournaments were held in nice venues. Players were held to certain standards. Matches got airtime on television. Guys, Euro Tour prize money was not that good...

While in the USA we were in a modern golden-age of pool talent with our pros in the 1990's ...the European pool youth saw this, looked up to it, inspired by it and dreamed of being champions. Their tournaments were there, they have something to look forward to. How did they look up to this? You have to be able to see something to look up to it. They saw pro pool, while our youth did not due to a near total television blackout of the sport. There are many other factors.

Anyway, I suspect today the economic culture of the EU play a role in allowing for more pool players to survive while playing the game they do. It is more feasible for them to play the game professionally and full time, even if they are not making a big living from it. You can be a lower income person in Europe and survive than you can in the U.S.. At least in Europe you can be poor and go to the doctor. A pool player here has no health care. This and many other social economic factors makes pool a non-option for Americans. American pool players have to decide between pool and a family. Can't support a family on pool. Few will find a wife who can bring in enough support to make up for it. Tough life. Mom working to pay the bills, while pool pro dad is on the road all the time slugging it out in tournaments for small winnings. My guess is, not a lot of takers for that lifestyle. Not exactly a high demand thing. Alternatively, you can do the non-family thing, and still struggle to survive.

On the international level, it pays the same for EU players as it does for US players....EU players come to US tournaments. US players rarely go to EU tournaments.

It comes down to this....EU players for various reason can get by with whatever prize money is available in pool both locally and internationally and via sponsorships. US players cannot. I say cannot, instead of will not because they love the game just as much and already have sacrificed so much. US players need higher prize money availability and it being spread more, that is, to reach a little further down the ranks.
This may all be true but there's also one huge variable often overlooked when discussing professional pool in the US and that is there isn't a US tour. Instead there's a quasi international one. Many complain about our country but there's still a long list of people and players that want to come here. That's certainly been the case for the professional pool player for at least 20 years now. If you want to cut it as a pro in the US you really need to be world class as even the regional events are littered with globe-trotting pros.

I suppose there's really nothing wrong with this, but it ties into your cost of living argument. If a Pinoy pro can come compete for six months and place well enough to have some cash to send back home -- they're doing pretty good. A US based player can't really compete with that long term. Don't get me wrong -- I have no issues with foreign players coming here, but it really changes the landscape for the up and coming US based pros.
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It will be interesting to see how the MR "tour" progresses in relation to payouts. The PGA isn't a hit because the top 2 or 3 percent of players become millionaires, it's because the absolute worst player on tour can make a comfortable living.

In other words, when someone who is maybe not world class, and likely never will be, someone like maybe Oscar or Billy Thorpe, can finish in the top 64 of a major consistently, and still make enough to buy a home, raise a family, go on vacation etc. Then you have a tour that might attract young athletes to the game.

I have said it before, but there is sooo many activities that American kids can be involved in. I'm not saying it isn't true in Euro countries, I just don't know enough to speak on it. But think about a typical 10 year old boy in Anytown, USA.

That kid has Little league baseball, Pee Wee football, and AAU basketball to choose from (many do multiple) And that's just the big 3
Then there is ODP Soccer, Golf lessons, Hockey (even in the South!), wrestling academies, tennis, lessons, Ju Jitsu competitions are becoming more and more popular

Then for those that don't like traditional sports, you have kids that are die hard fisherman, hunters, target shooters

Then you get into robotics camp, band camp, chess camp, gamer camp...

And then you got a large percentage of kids who aren't interested in anything but watching tik tok and youtube videos all day.

Pool has a lot to compete with kids here as it is, then throw in the fact that most modern pool takes place in 18 and over venues...
 

BlueRaider

Registered
It will be interesting to see how the MR "tour" progresses in relation to payouts. The PGA isn't a hit because the top 2 or 3 percent of players become millionaires, it's because the absolute worst player on tour can make a comfortable living.

In other words, when someone who is maybe not world class, and likely never will be, someone like maybe Oscar or Billy Thorpe, can finish in the top 64 of a major consistently, and still make enough to buy a home, raise a family, go on vacation etc. Then you have a tour that might attract young athletes to the game.

I have said it before, but there is sooo many activities that American kids can be involved in. I'm not saying it isn't true in Euro countries, I just don't know enough to speak on it. But think about a typical 10 year old boy in Anytown, USA.

That kid has Little league baseball, Pee Wee football, and AAU basketball to choose from (many do multiple) And that's just the big 3
Then there is ODP Soccer, Golf lessons, Hockey (even in the South!), wrestling academies, tennis, lessons, Ju Jitsu competitions are becoming more and more popular

Then for those that don't like traditional sports, you have kids that are die hard fisherman, hunters, target shooters

Then you get into robotics camp, band camp, chess camp, gamer camp...

And then you got a large percentage of kids who aren't interested in anything but watching tik tok and youtube videos all day.

Pool has a lot to compete with kids here as it is, then throw in the fact that most modern pool takes place in 18 and over venues...
There's also a competition problem. Unless the kid lives in a city with a thriving junior pool scene (and very few of those exist), who is he or she going to play?

Sadly, it seems that kids who show promise in pool end up getting sucked into the seedier side of it or just flat-out quitting in their teens UNLESS they can somehow go "legitimate," and there are very few opportunities for that.

Why dump thousands of hours into a game where your peers are grown men with drinking and gambling problems (generalizing here, but true more often than not) when your classmates are enjoying time with their actual peers playing sports or even video games for competition?
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's not accurate to say he had ball in hand position. If he'd had ball in hand, he'd have repositioned the cue ball so he didn't have to worry at all about catching the corner of the side pocket on the draw (or even scratching in the side) which may well be what caused him to force the shot a little and miss.
I agree and stated this earlier – that’s exactly what caused him to miss.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It will be interesting to see how the MR "tour" progresses in relation to payouts. The PGA isn't a hit because the top 2 or 3 percent of players become millionaires, it's because the absolute worst player on tour can make a comfortable living. ...
Snooker is very far ahead of pool in payouts but consider the 64th-ranked player on the snooker tour:

64Elliot Slessor63,500

That means that over the last two years (the ranking period for snooker) #64 has won about $40,000 per year. For most players on the 128-player professional tour, snooker is still a hobby that offers a possibility of profit after expenses.

In comparison, here is #65 on the AZB pool money leaders board for 2022:

65PoolUSAEarl Strickland$21,150.00

So, in some sense, pool is running at about half the prize level of snooker. The top players at snooker are at a higher level compared to pool with O'Sullivan earning about $600,000 per year (before endorsements).

Bottom line: I think we want pool to pass snooker.
 
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