Most of your misses due to poor aim or poor stroke?

That too...,

If you REALLY hate losing, and I mean REALLY HATE LOSING deep down in your gut, you'll do anything to win, and keep winning. Practice, practice, practice, and then practice some more, but then...DON'T LOSE.

I play and practice regularly. I cash in local tournaments and win some too and I gamble walking in the door.

But the one thing about pool that's different from golf and bowling and I play those games well too, is that pool players don't seem to take coaching well/serious?

I know that there are lots of debate on this site about aiming systems, but how can you know what works for you if you haven't tried? If its BS, I'll know pretty quickly, but I watched really good bowlers/golfers try new things all the time, when it didn't work they went back to what they knew, if it worked, they incorporated it.
 
You know as well as I, that there are quite a few that advocate to only use english to change the way the CB comes off the rail & only if the result can not be gotten by not using english.

Some have basically suggested to stay away from using english at all costs.

Some have made the use of english sound like it is so complicated that only a computerized robot is capable of using it effectively.

Some have suggested than some, beginners, may not want to even try using english for the their first year or so.

It seems that it is you that wants to start something with me.

I merely commented on a statement that I saw regarding a subject that has been somewhat controversial in the past.

As to the aim & alignment there are quite a few shots, especially on the larger tables where one can not get into their normal alignment BUT they can aim the cue. So...how can they be the same thing? That is a rhetorical question & I do NOT want a response from you nor to get into an argument with you.

The 'something' seems to start every time you show up. You want to 'attack' me, get me to respond & then blame me for derailing the thread.

I'm done, nothing good can come from having any contact with you. At least not until you have a change in attitude, which I seriously doubt is going to happen in this lifetime.

Sorry BRussell & everyone else.

Best Wishes to ALL & May God Bless You, Neil.

Maybe you should try READING what you quoted before you comment on it. :slap:

As usual, blame me for your nonsense comments. :rolleyes:
 
I usually hear people (e.g., Jerry Briesath) say that the main cause of a miss is a poor stroke or poor cueing, even though the shooter may think that they aimed poorly. I believed this when I first heard it, but I've started to wonder.

My percentage for straight-in shots, even long ones, is much higher than my percentage for cut shots of the same length. That's aim, not stroke.

I'm curious about other pool players: Do you think you miss more because of poor aim, or poor stroke?

It also depends on what level on is at. The beginners, definitely both. Intermediates, less on aim and more on stroke. Advanced, tends to be more mental with just getting sloppy. So, it can be either sloppy on aim, or sloppy on stroke.

What holds many intermediates back is just plain sloppiness in being accurate with both. As long as they make the ball, they feel they aimed correctly, and stroked correctly. Never realizing that their aim might have been off a little, but their bad stroke actually happened to make the ball anyways.

With aiming, most shots are no problem. But many have difficulty with certain shots. With stroke, most have difficulty actually hitting the cb where they actually intend to hit it.

On your straight in shots, are you able to stop the cb dead in it's tracks, or does it goes off to one side a little? Does the cb go into the heart of the pocket, or off to one side? Just because the straight in shot dropped, doesn't prove that your stroke is straight. There is a margin of error there.
 
It also depends on what level on is at. The beginners, definitely both. Intermediates, less on aim and more on stroke. Advanced, tends to be more mental with just getting sloppy. So, it can be either sloppy on aim, or sloppy on stroke.

What holds many intermediates back is just plain sloppiness in being accurate with both. As long as they make the ball, they feel they aimed correctly, and stroked correctly. Never realizing that their aim might have been off a little, but their bad stroke actually happened to make the ball anyways.

With aiming, most shots are no problem. But many have difficulty with certain shots. With stroke, most have difficulty actually hitting the cb where they actually intend to hit it.

On your straight in shots, are you able to stop the cb dead in it's tracks, or does it goes off to one side a little? Does the cb go into the heart of the pocket, or off to one side? Just because the straight in shot dropped, doesn't prove that your stroke is straight. There is a margin of error there.

Good Post.
 
Thank You english.........

That seems to be what Gene is talking about. One little change or understanding can make a significant difference.

I have turned so may c and b players into master players that it is just ridiculous.

I have players win tournaments the next weekend after I teach them how these eyes work.

It's been kind of kept a secret though. Some of the top teachers around the country that I've showed this to have trouble teaching it so they don't. They can't wrap their brain around it but it can be kind of challenging even for myself but I always get the job done.

But once I show a player how their own eyes work with their eye dominance they can now improve at a rapid pace. Now they can improve their game.

other aspects of the game start to work because the correct picture is going to the brain.

Why some players and even some teachers would want to suppress this info by saying they doubt it is crazy.

Someday, hopefully before I'm gone, this will be what everyone is taught right from the start.

Not knowing this is just as stupid as having a tip up scope on your gun and not using it when your trying to hit something at 200 yards. Saying I just like doing things the old way. it's worked for years so why change. Annie Oakley and wild bill shot OK like this using theopen sights so what's the difference.

These statements would be coming from people that never even tried the scope.

if they were hungry and needed to eat, I'll bet they would use the scope once they tried it.

Anyone that wants to play good pool and has learned this from me would tell anyone how foolish it would be to ignore this technique. Why wouldn't you want to know how to line up the sight? And once you learn why would you quit unless you like missing shots?

Once a player hits around 50 they lose the ability to get these eyes right naturally whether it be from not being able to practice enough because of physical problems or just from getting older. But if a players knows how to manually get these eyes right their game will hardly skip a beat as they get older except for physical problems from age.

Most players around the country are stuck at a certain level with their game. Depending how much they can practice, depends on how well they can naturally get the eyes to this most correct position.

Almost all the 3's that I help in leagues around the country have the non dominant eye working way too much like the dominant eye. Once I show them the difference their pocketing skills skyrocket. They can't hardly believe it themselves.

But all the master players everywhere and every pro on the face of the earth needs to know how this works also and I can almost guarantee they don't. it would stop these stupid little misses especially in pressure situations. It's the eyes that they dog. Not the stroke or stance. it's those doggy doggety eyes.

Nobody ever figured this whole thing out and it took me at least 2 years on the road doing 100's of lessons per month. The first 6 months were the toughest. There was no blueprint to follow or no one to copy. This was all from someone that knew a little bit about this at first and then finally realized how enormous it really was.

I did 2,000 personal lessons, most of them documented and at least 10,000 mini lessons. A mini lesson is showing a player which eye is dominant for sure and showing them how much better they see the shot. The problem with the mini lesson is that once they learn a little bit they figure they can get there themselves with the rest. They don't want to pay the $200 for a 3 or 4 hour lesson and have all the answers to this because they can't even imagine how much there is to it until they learn it. It's pretty overwhelming to say the least.

All these lessons that I have done in the last 3 years for sure have been 100% successful and if the players have any questions they can just call me.

This works for everyone and makes the game so much easier.

Some players like the pros are just better naturally at getting the eyes there naturally or they just shoot all the time getting there from repetition.

But anyone can be taught to get the eyes there manually and have a huge advantage right from the gate.

This is the most ground breaking, exciting technique that has ever hit the pool world ever and it's just amazing how many players are so skeptical that they just act like it is sour grapes.

I tell players sometimes that I will teach them for free and they turn me down because they are afraid I will screw up their game.

I had one lady friend that worked with kids in a Junior league that didn't want me to come help the kids. She didn't know how it worked but knew I had given thousands of lessons all over the USA. She was afraid I would screw up her kids. One of the kids in St Cloud that I worked with won the BCA nationals in Vegas. TJ Stienhouse. One of the best players in Minnesota right now. I think he's 19 right now. I showed him Perfect Aim when he was about 16. He told me thanks again about 3 months ago. He knows how important this whole thing is.

Many of the kids I worked with are some of the top players in the USA today.

Not an accident.

Your right there English but these pros don't know how this works but just get there naturally. if they quit playing for a month they would be screwed and couldn't beat anyone. The eyes are the toughest to keep right naturally. So if you don't know how to keep the dominant eye in the most dominant position you better hit a thousand or so balls every week.

I'm done with my rant but it's the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Good luck with your game.
 
what geno says...right eye placement leads to right alignment leading to good stroke

Geno is right...everything starts with the eyes, if the eyes are placed correctly then the info sent to the brain is correct, which helps aligning the cue correctly, which makes the stroke straight.
The eyes are first not the other way around...
 
When you miss a shot, did the cue ball go where you intended? If so, then that was an aiming error. If not, then it was a stroke error. I believe most shots are missed because of a combination of both, but consistently putting that cue ball where you want seems to be trickier for most players.

Your eyes guide your body movements, but coordinating your body to deliver a stroke where you are aiming can be very challenging.
 
I don't really think aiming and aligning are the same thing.

They may be closely related but to just say they are one and the same is misleading I think.

So what's the difference? Well according to this guy that hangs out in a basement, I think aiming is the actual process of visualizing the shot. Alignment would then be what comes after aiming -- placing your cue and your body in the proper position for striking the ball.

You aim first. You align second.
 
I think the BIGGEST reason I miss is my eyes. I never wore glasses in my life until I was late 40s and I had almost quit playing at all by then. I then quit for over 10 years and when I came back needing glasses to play, my game went downhill in a HURRY. I now wear contacts to play, but I'm still trying to figure out what my problem is. If Gene were here, he could probably help me figure it out. I know my alignment and stroke are not as bad as they could be, but I have a REAL HARD time seeing the LINE at times...it seems blurred or I am seeing a bit of double-vision looking down the cue. I think my head alignment needs to be adjusted over my cue a bit differently. I think I am left-eye dominant, but I am right handed.
 
I usually hear people (e.g., Jerry Briesath) say that the main cause of a miss is a poor stroke or poor cueing, even though the shooter may think that they aimed poorly. I believed this when I first heard it, but I've started to wonder.

My percentage for straight-in shots, even long ones, is much higher than my percentage for cut shots of the same length. That's aim, not stroke.

I'm curious about other pool players: Do you think you miss more because of poor aim, or poor stroke?
I think the biggest reasons people miss shots are:

1.) not enough care and focus given to actually visualizing and aiming the shot.

2.) not enough care and focus given to accurately aligning the cue and tip for the shot.

3.) inaccurate or inconsistent visual alignment (see vision center).

4.) poor or inconsistent pre-shot routine.

5.) lack of understanding or intuition for how to adjust aim for squirt, swerve, and throw (see aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw)

6.) inconsistent and inaccurate stroke resulting in poor speed control and inaccurate tip contact point, resulting in the next shot being missed (even if you pocket the current shot).


For me personally, the biggest cause for missed shots is item 1 above (and sometimes items 2 and 4); although, in the past, item 3 was a big issue for me. And I think for most people, 6 is a huge factor, so the stroke is very important. To win, you also need to make the next shot; so if your speed and position control are poor or inconsistent, you won't be a good player.

Good thread,
Dave
 
I think the BIGGEST reason I miss is my eyes. I never wore glasses in my life until I was late 40s and I had almost quit playing at all by then. I then quit for over 10 years and when I came back needing glasses to play, my game went downhill in a HURRY. I now wear contacts to play, but I'm still trying to figure out what my problem is. If Gene were here, he could probably help me figure it out. I know my alignment and stroke are not as bad as they could be, but I have a REAL HARD time seeing the LINE at times...it seems blurred or I am seeing a bit of double-vision looking down the cue. I think my head alignment needs to be adjusted over my cue a bit differently. I think I am left-eye dominant, but I am right handed.

I don't know if Gene still gives a free phone lesson, but he helped me a lot to see how my own eyes work. I was a doubter, but I discovered he really can show you a ton just by phone. It was a very positive experience for me, and I'd recommend it to anybody at any level.
 
I don't really think aiming and aligning are the same thing.

They may be closely related but to just say they are one and the same is misleading I think.

So what's the difference? Well according to this guy that hangs out in a basement, I think aiming is the actual process of visualizing the shot. Alignment would then be what comes after aiming -- placing your cue and your body in the proper position for striking the ball.

You aim first. You align second.

I like the way you stated that.
 
............Once a player hits around 50 they lose the ability to get these eyes right naturally whether it be from not being able to practice enough because of physical problems or just from getting older. But if a players knows how to manually get these eyes right their game will hardly skip a beat as they get older except for physical problems from age.................

.............Some players like the pros are just better naturally at getting the eyes there naturally or they just shoot all the time getting there from repetition.

But anyone can be taught to get the eyes there manually and have a huge advantage right from the gate. ..................

Gene,

I sincerely hope that you are correct regarding the above & we will talk soon.

All the Best to You, Get Well, Stay Well, & Then Shoot Well,
Rick
 
I think the biggest reasons people miss shots are:

1.) not enough care and focus given to actually visualizing and aiming the shot.

2.) not enough care and focus given to accurately aligning the cue and tip for the shot.

3.) inaccurate or inconsistent visual alignment (see vision center).

4.) poor or inconsistent pre-shot routine.

5.) lack of understanding or intuition for how to adjust aim for squirt, swerve, and throw (see aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw)

6.) inconsistent and inaccurate stroke resulting in poor speed control and inaccurate tip contact point, resulting in the next shot being missed (even if you pocket the current shot).


For me personally, the biggest cause for missed shots is item 1 above (and sometimes items 2 and 4); although, in the past, item 3 was a big issue for me. And I think for most people, 6 is a huge factor, so the stroke is very important. To win, you also need to make the next shot; so if your speed and position control are poor or inconsistent, you won't be a good player.

Good thread,
Dave

Regarding stroke, I like what you said in 6.) Inconsistent.

If you lined up the top 25 pros you would find around 25 different strokes. If you can repeat that stroke every time and the object ball and cue ball both go where intended then regardless of whether it is a bicycle stroke, slip stroke, jab stroke, sidearm stroke, etc it is a good stroke because they repeat it exactly the same way every time.

For me a "poor stroke" is an inconsistent stroke.
 
Regarding stroke, I like what you said in 6.) Inconsistent.

If you lined up the top 25 pros you would find around 25 different strokes. If you can repeat that stroke every time and the object ball and cue ball both go where intended then regardless of whether it is a bicycle stroke, slip stroke, jab stroke, sidearm stroke, etc it is a good stroke because they repeat it exactly the same way every time.

For me a "poor stroke" is an inconsistent stroke.

I like the way you stated that too. We are an assorted bag of cookies & no one cookie cutter is going to fit all of us or even most of us.
 
jeffj2h;500584 For example i have a hard time judging the aim when the cb and ob are only a few inches apart.[/QUOTE said:
^^^^^^ What he said. Does anyone have an explanation why it looks like the cut angle is so sharp in cases like this? Is it just an optical illusion because the balls are so close together or do you need to in fact cut the ball much sharper when QB and OB are close together?
I struggled with shots where the OB was within an inch of the rail for awhile, I perceive the cut angle to be less when the ball is very close to the rail for some reason. I set up an extra QB in ghost ball position then got down behind real QB like I was going shoot the shot. By looking at the shot this way it really helped me to get an idea of what the shot should look like when I shoot it.
 
^^^^^^ What he said. Does anyone have an explanation why it looks like the cut angle is so sharp in cases like this? Is it just an optical illusion because the balls are so close together or do you need to in fact cut the ball much sharper when QB and OB are close together?
I struggled with shots where the OB was within an inch of the rail for awhile, I perceive the cut angle to be less when the ball is very close to the rail for some reason. I set up an extra QB in ghost ball position then got down behind real QB like I was going shoot the shot. By looking at the shot this way it really helped me to get an idea of what the shot should look like when I shoot it.
FYI, to those interested, a good way to aim cuts where the CB and OB are close together is the "center the contact point in the lens of overlap" approach covered on HAPS. The basics are described and illustrated here:

double-the-distance or double-the-overlap aiming method

I personally use it only when the CB and OB are very close (within 1-2 inches) and when I can clearly visualize the required OB contact point for the shot.

Regards,
Dave
 
For me, it's stroke for sure. I've been in a slump lately and have figured out that in general I'm aiming and actually hitting the object ball in the correct place but I'm not delivering my stick to the correct place on the cue ball. So let's say I'm trying to hit center ball, I'm putting side spin on it and throwing my object ball off.

This being said, I've never got into the aiming systems and don't think I need one. In general, when I miss a shot I can feel a breakdown in my mechanics.
 
Alignment and aiming are the most important. Your eyes have to be in line with your stroking arm.

If you bridge at the pivot point of your cue, it will cover up a lot of stroke errors.
 
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