My lists of greatest players

[jay helfert]

That was written in The Lions and The Lambs by Thomas Fensch. Willis was described as a great gambler, a lion. Ronnie Allen was also among the lions and a name I haven't seen yet on this list...Pete Margo.

Eddie Robin told me that Luther was just speaking up for a friend and was the stronger of the two players, but I suspect much of what has been said about Willis as a great gambler is true. Caras admitted he couldn't beat Willis to a buddy of mine from the Canton area. That speaks volumes as far as I am concerned.

Caras may have said that he couldn't beat Willis at 9-Ball. Straight Pool was a different story.

 

[bigskyjake]

Drawman,

I mentioned Pete Margo in the very first post. Although he did not make any of my top 5's, he is without a doubt one of the best players I have ever witnessed, and in straight pool he is definitely in my top 15, only because there are so many great players to choose from.

Here's a blast from the past - thanks to Grady Mathews and onepocket.org

Pete Margo counts the zeros as he accepts a check from Bill 'Weenie Beanie' Staton while 'The Miz' looks on.

Way off topic but doesn't Weenie Beenie look exactly like Tom Snyder from the old late late show

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Best money player is close between Parica and Buddy. Both had tons of heart.

Jay,

If we could someday sick down over dinner, I would love to parse your rankings with you.

As for best money player, that was the one catagory that I left off my rankings. Here's why.

There are so many variables to consider in money games. As you well know, tournament play means everyone in that particular tournament plays under the exact same conditions, with the exception of "luck" or "Unlucky" draw, ie, who you gotta play. With money match ups, some players have home court advantage, spots are given or taken, results are not always remembered or recorded accurately, etc. To me, it's so much easier to base a players over all strength on his tournament record against his contemporaries.

Let me go on here. As an example, when I consider who's on the G.O.A.T. list, I strongly consider their major tournament wins and placings, the longevity of their career, how knowledgable pool historians view them, what their peers had to say about them, how they held up under pressure, THEIR GAMBLING PEDIGREE OR LACK THEROF, how well versed they were in other cue disciplines, what shots they had in their arsenal, the amount of fear they caused their opponants, etc. Gambling escapades are not as easily verified as tournament wins. To me , the best players are those who have done the best in major tournaments. I give lots more credibility to a players verified credentials than I do gambling lore. But, we all are different and each of us gauges greatness on what WE think is relative or important.

As for the part I quoted in your post, to me, and this is only my opinion, Buddy is by FAR the better of the two in tournament AND GAMBLING. Buddy had a streak there for about 10 years where he was all but unbeatable. Every major player who gambled has tales of matching up with Buddy, and they all regard him with a high level of respect in this area. Conversely, I am aware of Parica's reputation as a much feared money king also. The difference is, Parica played a bunch of guys from the (and to borrow a phrase from YOU , "don't shoot me"), west coast. Who, by the way, WE ALL KNOW ARE NOT AS STRONG AS THOSE ON THE EAST COAST.
Plus, and this is very important, at the level they both played on, there was no stalling, neither of them was on the lemon. My point is that Buddy played at that super strenght in tournament play as well. He brought the same speed to money games as he brought to tournament games. And visa-versa. Parica, if he was as great as you say he was in money games, was not able to bring that same dominance to tournament play. And that's the biggest difference. Parica does NOT have a very impressive list of major tournament wins. Lot's of top 2 and 3 finishes for a longer time than Buddy was able to stay at a peak. So I do give the longevity nod to Jose over Buddy. But that's all.

As for HEART, Nick Varner has as much heart as any player who has ever lived. He is the epitomy of "grinder" who never says die. There is no quit in him. For example, rather than lose a rack of one pocket, he would rather put "the wedge" on his opponant and tire them out than to surrender a single rack. Remember how young Nick was when Daddy Warbucks took him to J.City and "unleashed" him on the hustler's. Varner has longevity, certifiable credentials in multiple disciplines, and is feared no matter the game or venue. Plus, all the heart in the world.

I don't know if all that filabustering made sense or not, but I sure feel better getting that out of my head.

Bottom line is that when any of us make these very, very enjoyable lists up, we should all realize that we all have differing criteria on what makes a player eligible or not for inclusion into OUR lists.

All that being said, when considering all time greatest money players ever, we also have to consider Don Willis, Jack Cooney, Denny Searcy, Vernon Elliot, John Fitzpatrick, Johnny Lineen, etc. I could probably list dozens more (Ronnie Allen, Bugs Rucker, Eddie Taylor) who were primarily considered greatest in their chosen discipline, but for some strange reason, always get over looked when great money players are considered.
For example, if I had to bet one set of pool in any of the 5 major disciplines and my life depended on it, I would bet Eddie Taylor in a set of full rack banks, say race to 10, over anyone who ever lived. That, to me, is the stone cold lead pipe cinch bet that just can't lose. But Taylor, who played probably 80% of his matches in money games vs tournaments, is hardly ever considered when it comes to best money players.

 

[Blackjack]

Terry,

This is where the subjectiveness comes in. I am unable to judge the skill of Eddie Taylor, Rags Fitzpatrick, or Harold Worst because I have never seen them play. Many of the players that Freddy mentioned are legends yet, because of geographics, personal interests, etc - I'd never seen them play. I think that is what makes "personal perspective" important when you are compiling these lists. I don't have a lot of teh resources that you possess on a lot of these players, and I wished I had some of the video footage that Dennis Walsh possesses on some of these lessons - but most of us just have our personal experiences and memories to go by.

I put Louie Roberts and Mike Carella in my Favorite Top 5 - mostly because I learned a lot from both of them - and I know a lot of people have no idea how well Carella played - but in my experience (through the eyes of a teenager) he played flawlessly - and the impression that his skill left upon my game is still strong to this day.

I really like this thread because it shows me that my personal views on Nick Varner are shared with many others - I really consider myself lucky to have watched him and to have played against him (ok ok ok ... Nick played - I mostly sat and watched - I had a great seat! ).

When I think back over the past 35-40 years I consider myself lucky...

I have been able to see

• Willie Mosconi
• Irving Crane
• Jimmy Caras
• Joe Balsis
• Cowboy Jimmy Moore
• Cisero Murphy
• Steve Mizerak
• Lou Butera
• Pete Margo
• Johnny Ervolino
• Gene Nagy
• Mike Eufemia
• Jack Breit
• Tom Jennings
• Nick Varner
• Mike Sigel
• Buddy Hall
• Louie Roberts
• Mike Carella
• Allen Hopkins
• David Howard
• Jim Rempe
• Bugs Rucker
• Grady Mathews
• Strawberry Brooks
• Dave Bollman
• Rags Woods
• Keith McCready
• Earl Strickland
• Jose Parica
• Oliver Ortmann
• Efren Reyes
• Francisco Bustamante
• Johnny Archer
• Ralf Souquet
• John Schmidt
• Fong Pang Chao
• Mark Tadd
• Corey Deuel
• Thorsten Hohmann

The future holds

• Shane Van Boening
• Justin Bergman
• John Morra
• Landon Shuffet

and about 4,000,000 other kids from Manila and Taipei City

Add to the fact that I also got to see Ali, Frazier, Palmer, Nicklaus, Woods, Michael Jordan, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, The 1987 Mets, and that the Red Sox won a World Series in my lifetime (keep the faith Cubs fans) - think I've been a very blessed man.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Terry,

This is where the subjectiveness comes in. I am unable to judge the skill of Eddie Taylor, Rags Fitzpatrick, or Harold Worst because I have never seen them play.
I think that is what makes "personal perspective" important when you are compiling these lists. I don't have a lot of teh resources that you possess on a lot of these players,

think I've been a very blessed man.

I totally agree with you that it's much easier to gauge a players speed by watching them or viewing video of them.

Obviously, no footage exists on Alfredo DeOro, for example. But, because none exists, does that mean we all forget about his great accomplishments? No, so what to do in a case like that? Well, I personally believe that we can get a players speed pretty accurately based on some other criteria as well.
1. Historical perspective- How does he fare or bode when compared with his contemporaries and then extrapolate that into how you imagine / guess / surmise he would do if some how, he could be placed in other eras and be in his prime?
2. Accomplishments- How many World and National championships has the player won? Who else was competing in those championships? How big or small was the field? Was the player you're focusing on in or near his prime when in whatever tournament you're researching. If he was past his prime, should that factor in in his results?
3. What do other pool historians think of the players career and credentials? Is he universally regarded as a great player (Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter, Reyes, etc) or do all but the die hard fans and knowledgable pool people know of them (Bennie Allen, Jerome Keough, Earl Shriver, Mike Carella, etc).

Again, personally speaking, I have film of players as far back as Frank Taberski and Erwin Rudolph. I have lots of film of Eddie Taylor banking, plus approximately 40 pages of material and info on his career, shooting habits, preferences, toughest opponants, etc. I have seen lots of these players in person also, but in Taylor's case, I only have the film and the written material to analyze his career and I feel that plenty of evidence exists that I can make the case that he was, (in my opinion) the greatest banker ever.

In cases like savants, such as Carella, who you're fond of, it is a shame that so few people even knew of him. He was a great player, but had such a short career, ala Worst and to some extent, Louie, so the problem is, where do we insert a player who had a very high but short termed peak? So, I very much agree with you that this is very, very subjective. The OBJECTIVE parts that are much easier to compare is major championships won. If there has to be a standard in gauging players, I can think of no other better way than total championships won. The variables, of course, are longevity and size & quality of the fields in which those titles were won.

I based my rankings largely on my library of pool materials and the 400 or so different tapes in my collection. It was definitly easier being very familiar with these players than just brainstorming, so that's why I'm comfortable with my selections.

I loved seeing everybody else's list as well. I am still trying to learn more and more about the history of our great sport and I do very much appreciate this thread and all those who participated. I hope this thread goes on for a few more days!

 

[hemicudas]

Great Thread, David.

I find this thread very refreshing. None of the, "You're an idiot. X was obviously better than Y", like I have seen elsewhere. Respect for other's opinion is a wonderful thing.

My favorite player list would not have to include top players only. It would include players that I have made money with and who was a hell of a lot of fun being in with and the laughs were free-flowing. Most of you younger guys might not have even heard of some of these guys but here goes. In no particular order.

Bill Stack
Buster Merchant
Benny Conway
Steve Gumphrey
Buddy Hall
Ronnie Allen
Keith McCready
Louie Roberts
Boogee
Woppie
Andy Oguine
Erman Bullard
Jimmy King---Both of them
Jeff Sergent
Black Danny from Memphis
Round Man
Uttley J. Puckett
Sonny Springer
Goodtime Charlie Owens
Smokey Joe Bartlett AKA Jesse Justice
James Christopher

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I find this thread very refreshing. None of the, "You're an idiot. X was obviously better than Y", like I have seen elsewhere. Respect for other's opinion is a wonderful thing.

My favorite player list would not have to include top players only. It would include players that I have made money with and who was a hell of a lot of fun being in with and the laughs were free-flowing. Most of you younger guys might not have even heard of some of these guys but here goes. In no particular order.

Bill Stack
Buster Merchant
Benny Conway
Steve Gumphrey
Buddy Hall
Ronnie Allen
Keith McCready
Louie Roberts
Boogee
Woppie
Andy Oguine
Erman Bullard
Jimmy King---Both of them
Jeff Sergent
Black Danny from Memphis
Round Man
Uttley J. Puckett
Sonny Springer
Goodtime Charlie Owens
Smokey Joe Bartlett AKA Jesse Justice
James Christopher

Bill,

Did you ever play Norman Hitchcock or Seth "Buttermilk" Brown? If so, any stories? How about Alf Taylor?
Also, in your opinion, between Keith & Louie (at their peak) who would you bet on in a race to 100 on the big track, not barbox?
Thanks!

 

[hemicudas]

Bill,

Did you ever play Norman Hitchcock or Seth "Buttermilk" Brown? If so, any stories? How about Alf Taylor?
Also, in your opinion, between Keith & Louie (at their peak) who would you bet on in a race to 100 on the big track, not barbox?
Thanks!

The only guy you mention that I knew was Buttermilk and I never played him. I walked in on him beating a guy that I couldn't beat so his action with me was knocked.

I loved, Louie but Louie couldn't beat Keith playing anything on any table including the 6X12 Big Bertha. Out of all the times they played I think Louie only won one time on the 9'er. Wish JAM would chime in on this thread. We could get it straight from the horse's mouth, or the other end depending what kinda mood Keith is in, LOL.

 

[jay helfert]

Jay,

If we could someday sick down over dinner, I would love to parse your rankings with you.

As for best money player, that was the one catagory that I left off my rankings. Here's why.

There are so many variables to consider in money games. As you well know, tournament play means everyone in that particular tournament plays under the exact same conditions, with the exception of "luck" or "Unlucky" draw, ie, who you gotta play. With money match ups, some players have home court advantage, spots are given or taken, results are not always remembered or recorded accurately, etc. To me, it's so much easier to base a players over all strength on his tournament record against his contemporaries.

Let me go on here. As an example, when I consider who's on the G.O.A.T. list, I strongly consider their major tournament wins and placings, the longevity of their career, how knowledgable pool historians view them, what their peers had to say about them, how they held up under pressure, THEIR GAMBLING PEDIGREE OR LACK THEROF, how well versed they were in other cue disciplines, what shots they had in their arsenal, the amount of fear they caused their opponants, etc. Gambling escapades are not as easily verified as tournament wins. To me , the best players are those who have done the best in major tournaments. I give lots more credibility to a players verified credentials than I do gambling lore. But, we all are different and each of us gauges greatness on what WE think is relative or important.

As for the part I quoted in your post, to me, and this is only my opinion, Buddy is by FAR the better of the two in tournament AND GAMBLING. Buddy had a streak there for about 10 years where he was all but unbeatable. Every major player who gambled has tales of matching up with Buddy, and they all regard him with a high level of respect in this area. Conversely, I am aware of Parica's reputation as a much feared money king also. The difference is, Parica played a bunch of guys from the (and to borrow a phrase from YOU , "don't shoot me"), west coast. Who, by the way, WE ALL KNOW ARE NOT AS STRONG AS THOSE ON THE EAST COAST.
Plus, and this is very important, at the level they both played on, there was no stalling, neither of them was on the lemon. My point is that Buddy played at that super strenght in tournament play as well. He brought the same speed to money games as he brought to tournament games. And visa-versa. Parica, if he was as great as you say he was in money games, was not able to bring that same dominance to tournament play. And that's the biggest difference. Parica does NOT have a very impressive list of major tournament wins. Lot's of top 2 and 3 finishes for a longer time than Buddy was able to stay at a peak. So I do give the longevity nod to Jose over Buddy. But that's all.

As for HEART, Nick Varner has as much heart as any player who has ever lived. He is the epitomy of "grinder" who never says die. There is no quit in him. For example, rather than lose a rack of one pocket, he would rather put "the wedge" on his opponant and tire them out than to surrender a single rack. Remember how young Nick was when Daddy Warbucks took him to J.City and "unleashed" him on the hustler's. Varner has longevity, certifiable credentials in multiple disciplines, and is feared no matter the game or venue. Plus, all the heart in the world.

I don't know if all that filabustering made sense or not, but I sure feel better getting that out of my head.

Bottom line is that when any of us make these very, very enjoyable lists up, we should all realize that we all have differing criteria on what makes a player eligible or not for inclusion into OUR lists.

All that being said, when considering all time greatest money players ever, we also have to consider Don Willis, Jack Cooney, Denny Searcy, Vernon Elliot, John Fitzpatrick, Johnny Lineen, etc. I could probably list dozens more (Ronnie Allen, Bugs Rucker, Eddie Taylor) who were primarily considered greatest in their chosen discipline, but for some strange reason, always get over looked when great money players are considered.
For example, if I had to bet one set of pool in any of the 5 major disciplines and my life depended on it, I would bet Eddie Taylor in a set of full rack banks, say race to 10, over anyone who ever lived. That, to me, is the stone cold lead pipe cinch bet that just can't lose. But Taylor, who played probably 80% of his matches in money games vs tournaments, is hardly ever considered when it comes to best money players.

I want to come look at your tapes, especially of Taylor banking. Just FYI, for many years at tournaments all over the country (including the East Coast) all players present had no interest in gambling with Parica. He was given a wide berth by the assembled masses. He had proved himself in Texas by beating all the best in the country and giving weight to the world.

And that's how it went for about 15 years. Jose was the Lassiter of the 80's and 90's. "Hello, how are you, no I don't want to play anything with you, but thanks for asking". No 9-Ball, no Ten Ball, no Rotation and no One Pocket either! Neither Johnny, Rodney or Corey was looking to play with this little fellow. Or anyone else! He was the most "left alone" pool player of this era.

Only Efren in One Pocket was held in the same regard. And that was One Pocket only! Rodney or Johnny or Buddy would have been glad to oblige him at 9-Ball if he was so inclined.

 

[tommie1351]

best money players

I know there could be a very long list on this subject,but I can't see how you can talk of money players without Cole Dickson or Richie Florence. These are and were very good friends of mine and they could bring it for the cash in the sixties and seventies.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Ouch!

I want to come look at your tapes, especially of Taylor banking. Just FYI, for many years at tournaments all over the country (including the East Coast) all players present had no interest in gambling with Parica. He was given a wide berth by the assembled masses. He had proved himself in Texas by beating all the best in the country and giving weight to the world.

And that's how it went for about 15 years. Jose was the Lassiter of the 80's and 90's. "Hello, how are you, no I don't want to play anything with you, but thanks for asking". No 9-Ball, no Ten Ball, no Rotation and no One Pocket either! Neither Johnny, Rodney or Corey was looking to play with this little fellow. Or anyone else! He was the most "left alone" pool player of this era.

Only Efren in One Pocket was held in the same regard. And that was One Pocket only! Rodney or Johnny or Buddy would have been glad to oblige him at 9-Ball if he was so inclined.

Geez, Jay. I always thought you didn't mind me asking so many questions. You have answered dozens of them from me in the past, including being so kind to share info via the PMs. If I upset you or got you angry, please forgive me. I get the strong impression that you think I'm knocking your info. For some reason, you seem very testy about this. Maybe I'm wrong....

As for the Taylor film. Here's some info for you if you're interested. A VHS tape entitled "Eddie Taylor & The Legends of Pool" was produced in 1996 by a company called Scenic Publishing. It's running time is 2hrs 5 min. Eddie's nephew and set up man on the road is Alf Taylor, one of the guys I just asked hemicuda's about. Alf is a very strong player in his own right and I enjoy hearing fresh stories of him as well. Anyway, back to the tape.
In addition to Eddie running banks, it also has his 1993 BCA HOF induction ceremony and testimonials from other great players. Since he was born in 1918 and this tape was made in 1996, that makes him 78 years old when the film was being produced. At one point in the video, at the age of 78 and almost blind, he is STILL running banks!

Next, my pun about the "west coast players" was meant as a joke, that's why I put the smiling figure. I'm east coast, you're west coast and usually, good natured woofing has been somewhat lauded. You are one of the biggest joksters on this forum, plus, I'm very confident that you know me well enough by my posts that I am never trying to hurt or embarrass anyone here, right?

Lastly, I BELIEVE YOU about Parica! I have posted several other times on AZB about how strong a player Parica was / is. I disagree that he was more feared than Buddy Hall in his prime. Just by what you posted just now, about how Parica could never get a game in anything. That's the part that confuses me. (And the post you referenced was just regarding Buddy vs Jose). If Buddy was beating all those players and Jose went about 15 years with very little or no gambling matches, then if Buddy was playing and WINNING, he would seem to be the better player. Heck, Efren, as great as he's playing one pocket these days, STILL gets to match up for the cash! If Jose was that good, and he could not get any significant action, then why wasn't he tearing up the majors? That is the only part I'm mixed up on. I am not trying to sound like I know more than you or anything like that. We have always been pals and I want to do everything I can to keep on good terms with you. If me asking these questions agitates you, again Jay, I'm very sorry. My intent was to learn why you feel that way, not to dispute with you.

I would be proud to explain to someone why I think so & so should be ranked where I have them. I would feel honored that someone thought highly enough of my post to even care to ask questions. And of all the many members here who I've traded insights and info with, it has always been that way.

If I pi$$ed you off by asking about Jose, I really am sorry. I sincerely meant no harm...

AND, if you are NOT upset or agitated by my questions....then it was me who mis-read the intent of your reply.

Still buds???

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I know there could be a very long list on this subject,but I can't see how you can talk of money players without Cole Dickson or Richie Florence. These are and were very good friends of mine and they could bring it for the cash in the sixties and seventies.

Tommie,
I agree with you. I would be hard pressed to keep those two off an all time best money player list. I know that Grady thinks awefully highly of both of them, especially Richie.

I really wish Freddy or Grady would join in this thread. Their insights are also very valued.

 

[ginsu]

I want to come look at your tapes, especially of Taylor banking. Just FYI, for many years at tournaments all over the country (including the East Coast) all players present had no interest in gambling with Parica. He was given a wide berth by the assembled masses. He had proved himself in Texas by beating all the best in the country and giving weight to the world.

And that's how it went for about 15 years. Jose was the Lassiter of the 80's and 90's. "Hello, how are you, no I don't want to play anything with you, but thanks for asking". No 9-Ball, no Ten Ball, no Rotation and no One Pocket either! Neither Johnny, Rodney or Corey was looking to play with this little fellow. Or anyone else! He was the most "left alone" pool player of this era.

Only Efren in One Pocket was held in the same regard. And that was One Pocket only! Rodney or Johnny or Buddy would have been glad to oblige him at 9-Ball if he was so inclined.

I watched , in disbelief, when Jose backed down from Tad at the Cue Club in the early 90's. It was quite interesting because Mark was barking loud and long. Jose just said no and after some more verbal abuse left. Tad was in full punch at that time.

 

[corvette1340]

Terry,

This is where the subjectiveness comes in. I am unable to judge the skill of Eddie Taylor, Rags Fitzpatrick, or Harold Worst because I have never seen them play. Many of the players that Freddy mentioned are legends yet, because of geographics, personal interests, etc - I'd never seen them play. I think that is what makes "personal perspective" important when you are compiling these lists. I don't have a lot of teh resources that you possess on a lot of these players, and I wished I had some of the video footage that Dennis Walsh possesses on some of these lessons - but most of us just have our personal experiences and memories to go by.

I put Louie Roberts and Mike Carella in my Favorite Top 5 - mostly because I learned a lot from both of them - and I know a lot of people have no idea how well Carella played - but in my experience (through the eyes of a teenager) he played flawlessly - and the impression that his skill left upon my game is still strong to this day.

I really like this thread because it shows me that my personal views on Nick Varner are shared with many others - I really consider myself lucky to have watched him and to have played against him (ok ok ok ... Nick played - I mostly sat and watched - I had a great seat! ).

When I think back over the past 35-40 years I consider myself lucky...

I have been able to see

• Willie Mosconi
• Irving Crane
• Jimmy Caras
• Joe Balsis
• Cowboy Jimmy Moore
• Cisero Murphy
• Steve Mizerak
• Lou Butera
• Pete Margo
• Johnny Ervolino
• Gene Nagy
• Mike Eufemia
• Jack Breit
• Tom Jennings
• Nick Varner
• Mike Sigel
• Buddy Hall
• Louie Roberts
• Mike Carella
• Allen Hopkins
• David Howard
• Jim Rempe
• Bugs Rucker
• Grady Mathews
• Strawberry Brooks
• Dave Bollman
• Rags Woods
• Keith McCready
• Earl Strickland
• Jose Parica
• Oliver Ortmann
• Efren Reyes
• Francisco Bustamante
• Johnny Archer
• Ralf Souquet
• John Schmidt
• Fong Pang Chao
• Mark Tadd
• Corey Deuel
• Thorsten Hohmann

The future holds

• Shane Van Boening
• Justin Bergman
• John Morra
• Landon Shuffet

and about 4,000,000 other kids from Manila and Taipei City

Add to the fact that I also got to see Ali, Frazier, Palmer, Nicklaus, Woods, Michael Jordan, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, The 1987 Mets, and that the Red Sox won a World Series in my lifetime (keep the faith Cubs fans) - think I've been a very blessed man.

Indeed you have witnessed a lot my friend. But, you have yet to meet me.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Best money player is close between Parica and Buddy.

I forgot something else....Since they are that close then couldn't you make a case for either of them?

 

[Fatboy]

Kim is a fearless gambler for 30 years now,

 

[olauzon]

4,000,000 other kids from Manila and Taipei City.

holy smokes. that is, as duchess of doom puts it, a looot.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Kim is a fearless gambler for 30 years now,

Yep. And also, how about Sigel & Hubbart in the 1970's. They too were a powerhouse to reckon with.

 

[jay helfert]

I watched , in disbelief, when Jose backed down from Tad at the Cue Club in the early 90's. It was quite interesting because Mark was barking loud and long. Jose just said no and after some more verbal abuse left. Tad was in full punch at that time.

No question Mark was a great player in the early to mid 90's, but I'm sure there was a reason that Jose would not play at the time. It could be as simple as NO MONEY! Remember you are talking about Las Vegas,a place that has continually kept Jose broke.

That would have been some match back then. Two great players at their peak. I'll ask Jose when I see him.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

In his prime, for the cash, Hopkins was the nuts at just about every game. Heads up against many of the pros listed here, betting with their own money, I'd take him over anyone as long as it was a long session. Just my opinion

If they played a round robin game like the fats vs mosconi video where there was 9ball, rotation, straight pool, and 1P.... I'd REALLY pick him.