My lists of greatest players

Marvel said:
WOW!


This is the greatest post I've ever read on this forum!

Thank's Blackjack!


BTW, were your names listed in an order, or was it just 5 names in no particular order?
Just curious, as you say about Efren's 9-ball: "He is definitely, without a doubt the best that I have ever seen."
Did you mean from the 'modern era', or all time? Efren is at fourth place if listed in order..


I'm too tired to give my (correct) lists now, but if my life was on the line and I had to choose a guy to shoot a shot to save my life, I would definitely choose Mikko Jantti for that task ;) :p :D
No! Seriously, it would be Mikko Jantti..
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Thank you for your kind words, but counting on me on this issue makes Marvel look purely suicidal. No, seriously, you should pick Kalenius (local hero) instead of me. I truly appreciate Marvel standing up for me, but I am somehow reluctant to place myself on any of Blackjack's lists. Probably I'll be elected posthumously by Blackjack's grandchildren, but until then I prefer remaining unranked. :rolleyes: :D

Go get 'em at the Open Marvel !!
 
eaglesfan44 said:
Jay how would Efren and Ronnie play one pocket in there prime in your opinion? Would there be a spot and if so who would give it? I can't see how anyone could play Efren even but then again I wasn't even alive when Ronnie was in his prime so I wouldn't know.
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PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME!

I think Ronnie would have won. He knew too much, moved too good and played great for the cash. And Efren would have had trouble getting out of Ronnie's break. In his prime, Ronnie banked better than Efren, shot as straight and had as much heart (or more). Efren does one thing better than Ronnie, control the cue ball. But Ronnie understood kicking in One Pocket better than anyone who ever lived, especially kicking into the pack.

Please don't shoot me! I know this is a sacrilege on here, to claim that anyone could ever beat Efren. I've seen them both play many times and this is my opinion based on all what I saw. Ronnie ran ten and out a zillion times from nowhere! I saw it! He always had to get to ten, because he spotted all the good players games like 10-6 or 10-7. The great players got 10-8. Often he gave up games like 12-8 and had to spot his first four balls. No matter, he could run 12 and out too! And did many times. I saw that also!

Ronnie would play very good players and give them 10-6 and take the break. They had NO chance! He would play top players even and take the break, his one hand to their two, and they would have NO chance! Again, I saw it! He did it!

I practiced sometimes with Ronnie and he gave me 8-4 for ten a game, when we had nothing to do. I played good then, shot real straight and banked very good. Once in a while, I could break even at that game. Oh well! I just couldn't overcome his break. So that accounts for half the games. You figure it out.

By the way, no one ever shot combinations in One Pocket close to Ronnie's speed either. Sometimes with three or more balls too. He could shoot shots like this and leave a couple of balls near his pocket and the cue ball buried in the pack. Even a "magician" couldn't get out of these traps.
 
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kildegirl said:
efren, and i was there, charlie.
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Charlie, I know about this game. It was way past Ronnie's prime.

By the way, Ronnie was getting 8-7 and the break in this game. Ronnie would start out ahead every game like 5-0 or 6-1, and he couldn't finish the game out and get the last ball or two he needed. This happened game after game, Ronnie would beat Efren to the shot and get a big lead, but couldn't close the deal. The Ronnie of old would have completed the run out and won ALL those games.

Efren could never have given vintage Ronnie Allen the break. That would have been suicidal. Now if Efren could not have beaten Ronnie on his break and that accounts for half the games, tell me how Efren could have beaten Ronnie. I just don't see it. Sorry!
 
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Best players

Blackjack .... Not too diminuish Efren's standing, but I think Sigel in his prime was a better 9 baller. I know Mike won mostly 8 ball titles, but he could play 9 ball real good too. Efren gets a little weak in the Break department sometimes, but is strong in all other aspects, certainly the most creative, and what is truly amazing is his accuracy on creative shots.

Varner is one of the most 'overlooked' great players of his time. Everytime I mention his name, a picture of him pops in my head of him chewing that gum..... LOL

Terry ... Glad to see you mention Jimmy Caras, he is often overlooked too.
 
Jay, I guess we'll never know who would have won, but I would have put a ton of money on Efren. In the book Hustler Days Ronnie is mentioned playing the same level as Jack Breitt , or Jersey Red.
Part of Ronnie's game was his gab, as well. I've seen players try this with Efren and believe me, it doesn't work. I played Ronnie in a one pocket tournament 15 years ago at Hard Times, and I wouldn't shoot until he shut up. He finally remarked "Am I bothering you sir?" I replied "Yes, you are."
I won the match. He tried barking again with the next match and the player used the same tactic as me, which really pissed Ronnie off, to the point of him saying "I just want to get out of here." He lost and he did get out of there.
U.J. Puckett's hustling theme was "conversation and concentration". I saw Ronnie use the conversation thing almost every chance he had.
Anyway, just my opinion. We'll never know who would have won.

Danny
 
jay helfert said:
PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME!

I think Ronnie would have won. He knew too much, moved too good and played great for the cash. And Efren would have had trouble getting out of Ronnie's break. In his prime, Ronnie banked better than Efren, shot as straight and had as much heart (or more). Efren does one thing better than Ronnie, control the cue ball. But Ronnie understood kicking in One Pocket better than anyone who ever lived, especially kicking into the pack.

Please don't shoot me! I know this is a sacrilege on here, to claim that anyone could ever beat Efren. I've seen them both play many times and this is my opinion based on all what I saw. Ronnie ran ten and out a zillion times from nowhere! I saw it! He always had to get to ten, because he spotted all the good players games like 10-6 or 10-7. The great players got 10-8. Often he gave up games like 12-8 and had to spot his first four balls. No matter, he could run 12 and out too! And did many times. I saw that also!

Ronnie would play very good players and give them 10-6 and take the break. They had NO chance! He would play top players even and take the break, his one hand to their two, and they would have NO chance! Again, I saw it! He did it!

I practiced sometimes with Ronnie and he gave me 8-4 for ten a game, when we had nothing to do. I played good then, shot real straight and banked very good. Once in a while, I could break even at that game. Oh well! I just couldn't overcome his break. So that accounts for half the games. You figure it out.

By the way, no one ever shot combinations in One Pocket close to Ronnie's speed either. Sometimes with three or more balls too. He could shoot shots like this and leave a couple of balls near his pocket and the cue ball buried in the pack. Even a "magician" couldn't get out of these traps.
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I agreed with every word of your statement until DCC 2006, Jay. That's when Efren, in my mind, moved to 10-9 over Ronnie in their prime. Ronnie Allen was my favorite player to watch ever. He did all the things you say he did and then some. Not just me but good one pocket players would see Ronnie do something every couple of hours that they had never seen before. It seems to me that Efren does the same thing every hour on the hour today. Efren seems to be getting better with age where Ronnie's game went down.

I, like Jay, have been lucky enough to have seen Ronnie and Efren in their prime. It is very close. Anyone who loves one pocket should watch Efren play any time they can. There will never be another.
 
Speaking of Nick Varner being overlooked, in about 1988 or so, when he won numerous major titles and was player of the year, he was invited to the Philipines to play Efren a race to 45, or some long total of games, for a significant amount of cash. Varner won by 15 games or so.

When asked afterwards why he lost, Efren stated "he played too good".
Varner had a pretty good break back then, and that might have made a slight difference, but he was extremely hot for about a year. I believe that was the year he was travelling with Hal Mix, and I think Hal had a positive effect on Nick's game.

Oh, and actually, for the record, Sigel's wins were mostly in nine-ball.

Danny
 
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Danny Kuykendal said:
Speaking of Nick Varner being overlooked, in about 1988 or so, when he won numerous major titles and was player of the year, he was invited to the Philipines to play Efren a race to 45, or some long total of games, for a significant amount of cash. Varner won by 15 games or so.

When asked afterwards why he lost, Efren stated "he played too good".
Varner had a pretty good break back then, and that might have made a slight difference, but he was extremely hot for about a year. I believe that was the year he was travelling with Hal Mix, and I think Hal had a positive effect on Nick's game.

Oh, and actually, for the record, Sigel's wins were mostly in nine-ball.

Danny
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You're right Danny. In 9-Ball tournament play, Efren has a losing record against both Varner and Sigel. Winning record against Earl and about even with Buddy.

Nick had a little more than "one good year" though. He was a consistent winner for over 20 years. Winning or contending in most every tournament he played in, whether it was 9-Ball, One Pocket, 14.1 or Banks.

Come to think of it, I better put him on my All Around list. :)
 
Fascinating read guys, thanks very much for sharing your views and personal experiences of these greats. :)

I truly wish I could have seen them all play (in their prime) for my own eyes.

You are all blessed with such memories one can only dream of.
 
Danny Kuykendal said:
Speaking of Nick Varner being overlooked, in about 1988 or so, when he won numerous major titles and was player of the year, he was invited to the Philipines to play Efren a race to 45, or some long total of games, for a significant amount of cash. Varner won by 15 games or so.

When asked afterwards why he lost, Efren stated "he played too good".
Varner had a pretty good break back then, and that might have made a slight difference, but he was extremely hot for about a year. I believe that was the year he was travelling with Hal Mix, and I think Hal had a positive effect on Nick's game.

Oh, and actually, for the record, Sigel's wins were mostly in nine-ball.

Danny
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Danny

I remember that. With Hal Mix at his side, Nick was unstoppable - playing even against Reyes in Manila! How strong is that?

FWIW, I have the utmost respect for Mike Sigel's and everything he has accomplished. He is a legendary figure in our game, and his over 100 pro tour wins can never be taken away from him. I just believe that at the end of the 1980's, Nick Varner sent a message to everybody. I will always regard Nick's 1989 as one of the most unbelievable achievements in pool history by any player. In 1988-1990, Nick showed up to win and drilled just about everybody else. He just kicked ass and took no prisoners. I've never seen anything like it before, after, or since. That was why I put Nick Varner in my top 5, and not Mike Sigel.

Mike Sigel is definitely in my top 10, I recall back in 1985 or 86 he won 7 straight titles in a row. Unbelieveable, and those of us that were around to watch that and be a part of it were graced by some of the best pool ever played.
 
jay helfert said:
They were road partners. And friends for life.
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I heard that they became road partners because Lassiter wouldnt gamble with him,i heard if he wanted someone to shoot for his life it would have been Willis.
 
Lions and Lambs

Fast Lenny said:
i heard if he wanted someone to shoot for his life it would have been Willis.
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That was written in The Lions and The Lambs by Thomas Fensch. Willis was described as a great gambler, a lion. Ronnie Allen was also among the lions and a name I haven't seen yet on this list...Pete Margo.

Eddie Robin told me that Luther was just speaking up for a friend and was the stronger of the two players, but I suspect much of what has been said about Willis as a great gambler is true. Caras admitted he couldn't beat Willis to a buddy of mine from the Canton area. That speaks volumes as far as I am concerned.
 
Drawman623 said:
Ronnie Allen was also among the lions and a name I haven't seen yet on this list...Pete Margo.
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Drawman,

I mentioned Pete Margo in the very first post. Although he did not make any of my top 5's, he is without a doubt one of the best players I have ever witnessed, and in straight pool he is definitely in my top 15, only because there are so many great players to choose from.

Here's a blast from the past - thanks to Grady Mathews and onepocket.org

MargoBeenieMiz.jpg

Pete Margo counts the zeros as he accepts a check from Bill 'Weenie Beanie' Staton while 'The Miz' looks on.
 
Sigel's all round game cannot be ignored either. He might have been a little weak in one pocket, compared to all mentioned, but he more than made up for it in nine ball and straight pool. He's had arguably the most tournament success of any nine ball player. And just look in the record books for straight pool.

But then, Efren didn't focus on straight pool either. His games were nine ball and one pocket.

Varner was successful in all games as well.

Danny
 
Some perimeters to consider

In the 70s, Eddie Kelly stated (to me, and others)that Harold Worst was the only guy he knew that he couldn't beat playing Nineball. Consider: Kelly had already gone with Ronnie, to Elizabeth City NC, Wimpy's home pool room, and he played Wimpy Nineball to a week long draw.

In 1964, at the Tampa All-Around Worst showed up and unveiled himself. He declared, "I am the greatest 9ball player in the world." Few players even knew who he was. The hustler's said, "Who is this bum?" then somebody said, "That's that billiard player from Michigan, he can't be nothing." Still, the boys didn't stall and send in any "boys" on him. They opened him with either Eddie Taylor or Jimmy Moore, I forgot which. He beat them both. That didn't last long, he next finished off Marshall Carpenter and Danny Jones. I forgot in what order. They were playing 1 shot shoot-out, Worst had never even played that way, he had always played to kick at the ball, and these guys were all masters of that form of the game. Worst's only response to implementing those rules was, "You mean if I get snookered, I can roll out and get another chance at a shot?" He couldn't believe the hustler's munificence. They would roll out for a ridiculous cut and Harold would accept it and whizz it in. As good as he shot, he was a hustling dunce, and the boys finally got to him. With the treacherous Weenie Beenie steering him into death traps, Worst finally succumbed to the inevitable. He started overspotting the players, games on the wire, 2 out of 3 breaks, etc.
Conclusion: I personally couldn't bet against Harold playing anybody 9 ball.

I keep seeing Bugs left off the Onepocket lists. In 30 years not one human ever came to Chicago to play Bugs Onepocket even! They could have won a trainload of money, if they would have won. On the other side of that, Bugs went everywhere and played everybody, and there were few people that played him even, even in their own joints.

the Beard
My DVD is coming. Better get it early and learn the shots before your opponent does.
 
Beard, interesting story about Harold Worst. I think the game was called two shot shoot out though. Interesting he thought shoot to hit was a better game.

Danny
 
freddy the beard said:
In the 70s, Eddie Kelly stated (to me, and others)that Harold Worst was the only guy he knew that he couldn't beat playing Nineball. Consider: Kelly had already gone with Ronnie, to Elizabeth City NC, Wimpy's home pool room, and he played Wimpy Nineball to a week long draw.

In 1964, at the Tampa All-Around Worst showed up and unveiled himself. He declared, "I am the greatest 9ball player in the world." Few players even knew who he was. The hustler's said, "Who is this bum?" then somebody said, "That's that billiard player from Michigan, he can't be nothing." Still, the boys didn't stall and send in any "boys" on him. They opened him with either Eddie Taylor or Jimmy Moore, I forgot which. He beat them both. That didn't last long, he next finished off Marshall Carpenter and Danny Jones. I forgot in what order. They were playing 1 shot shoot-out, Worst had never even played that way, he had always played to kick at the ball, and these guys were all masters of that form of the game. Worst's only response to implementing those rules was, "You mean if I get snookered, I can roll out and get another chance at a shot?" He couldn't believe the hustler's munificence. They would roll out for a ridiculous cut and Harold would accept it and whizz it in. As good as he shot, he was a hustling dunce, and the boys finally got to him. With the treacherous Weenie Beenie steering him into death traps, Worst finally succumbed to the inevitable. He started overspotting the players, games on the wire, 2 out of 3 breaks, etc.
Conclusion: I personally couldn't bet against Harold playing anybody 9 ball.

I keep seeing Bugs left off the Onepocket lists. In 30 years not one human ever came to Chicago to play Bugs Onepocket even! They could have won a trainload of money, if they would have won. On the other side of that, Bugs went everywhere and played everybody, and there were few people that played him even, even in their own joints.

the Beard
My DVD is coming. Better get it early and learn the shots before your opponent does.
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For years I have heard many stories about how well Harold Worst played. I never had the opportunity to see him play, but I am curious as to what his speed was in 14.1. How did he match up with guys like Butera, Caras, Balsis, Ervolino, and Murphy?

I agree with you about Bugs, Freddy. I know very little about the history of one pocket, and I only saw Bugs play one time - I wish I could have appreciated the game more when I was younger. Keeping Bugs in my prayers.
 
Fast Lenny said:
I heard that they became road partners because Lassiter wouldnt gamble with him,i heard if he wanted someone to shoot for his life it would have been Willis.
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Close, actually Willis said that about Lassiter.
 
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