New cue Al Baytista 8 pointer

8-ball Rat said:
I can say this about the whole "design theft" topic - I have had several cuemakers make cues that were...um..."tributes" to a particular cue I could not afford to buy from the big dog. Upon posting pictures and intel of those cues, I was given all kinds of compliments and "congrats" messages about them. Not once did anyone ever dog me out for buying a "knock-off" cue. I hate to say it...but sometimes it seems as though peoples' tolerance of the practice is conditional...depending on who the "tribute" cuemaker might be, or who the buyer is/was....
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No truer words were ever spoken. I guarantee that at least one of those congrats is from someone who might post in this thread against this practice. I had similar situations with a certain cuemaker. Everyone got their cues loved them and raved about them, one guy says he doesn't like the hit and all of a sudden all these people that were saying the cue played great were like, oh yeah that cue hit bad, it sucked, etc... thats the Army mentality.

JV
 
I think it is a sweet cue.

Looks a little familiar. I think the cue's builder knows what he likes and built accordingly.
Flattering I'd think.
Nick :)
 
classiccues said:
No truer words were ever spoken. I guarantee that at least one of those congrats is from someone who might post in this thread against this practice. I had similar situations with a certain cuemaker. Everyone got their cues loved them and raved about them, one guy says he doesn't like the hit and all of a sudden all these people that were saying the cue played great were like, oh yeah that cue hit bad, it sucked, etc... thats the Army mentality.

JV
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Let's not bring the government into this...

That's a whole other can of worms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
2 wrongs doesn´t mean 1 right.

Even if everything has happen (happens), it doesn´t mean it´s right. Sometimes it takes someone to bring the thing out for us to feel that what we did was wrong (or right for that matter)- making a copy, ordering a copy etc.

Sure it´s loads of grey areas but I do think that we know what´s right or wrong - even if it happened before..............

Take care you all and I hope we all got a thing or two to think about, I sure did.

Regards

Chrippa
 
Okay the cue looks similar to Erics. So what? Eric didn't make it and didn't sign it.The guy got a cue he likes and then gets bashed.
Eric get over yourself. Scallops like half joints and ivory over stainless and ferrule less shafts comes with the territory all will be copied. Some will eventually go into production in China. So what?
You have a solid customer base, so i don't understand the whining.
You know i never see the most eminent cue builders posting on AZ. Why because they are not afraid of the competition or have to sell themselves.
As others have stated this should have remained private but you yourself brought it to the limelight.
 
I've seen a LOT of big name cue makers building cues in the "southwest" style. Why aren't they equally shamed?

EDIT: I'm not taking sides with that question, but I DO think we shouldn't single out any one cuemaker when so many borrow from one another.
 
ratcues said:
subdude, what do you do for a living?
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What I do for a living is irrelevant. And to be honest, someones occupation has nothing to do wih any of this. After all this bs, Al wont ever build one again like this. Noones livelyhood will be affected by the use of scallops on 2 cues. And to set the record straight, I never called him an A-hole. He called himself that in the other thread. Personally, this whole thing doesnt affect me in any shape or form. It doesnt change my opinion about either cuemaker. I have seen some real bashing on here that has changed my opinion of some members but that is it. I am done with this.
 
That is what a copy is. A mirror image of what is COPIED. Now, do I think the scallops are like a ST, sure. Just like a bunch of different designs that I have seen being reproduced by many top cuemakers. But here's something else. These "scallops" are basically tiny butterfly splices correct? Then basically what Eric has done is put a spin on an old cue construction method. Kudos to him. But to say the idea of putting the wood together this way is 100% original is false. Should Al have talked to Eric about him building a cue with scallops? Maybe. Personally, it is up to him. Does Eric have a patent? Is there really a design out there that is 100% original?(Talking cues made in the last 20 years.) Are there better ways of handling this whole situation? No, no, yes.
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Sir.. Just try to make a 70-80% copy for a consumer goods product in America like product M&M chocolate with the 80% same flavour chocolate and 80$ same design of the wrap (i don't know the word for the plastic wrap to hold the chocolate, sorry). i'm sure you will get sue for making a knock off. Because the company already get a patent for his design and his product. Eric here is not the same, he don't have any patent. Why, because try to get the patent is difficult and many cost. But, whether you have a patent or not. It is unethic to copy your original idea to make a profit from there.

Sir, i suggest you and many other member here in to Read carefully every post in this thread from beggining until now. especially JBcases and Eric post. You will get what the point and at the end you know that YES, Eric has the right to be angry here about what Al did. Because, if Eric not whinning about this situation then Al and many other cuemaker would thinking that it's okay for them to use this "scallop" design and make a profit from there. And in the end it will hurt Eric bussiness. I don't believe you can not understand his situation, right.

Note : it's only take a hour for read carefully every post in this thread. I did it, So i can understand what exectly happen. But, if somebody just jump here and chime in for just read 2-3 post and decide to make a comment. Then, i believe this thread will last forever.

Best
Dedy (Indonesia)
 
The man cant even enjoy his cue !!

Why is everyone still beating this dead horse ? The one's that are concerned with it have abviously moved on. The fact is a man sold a cue for just what he had into a original cue that he traded. A man bought the cue and was happy about it and posted pictures of his purchase. And it has been a high jack ever since. The man that started this thread asked everyone to just stop and let it die and would rather sell the cue than put up with people's crap that have nothing to do with it. If Eric and Al, have something to say Im sure they can pm one another. It;s not even being entertaining anymore....jmo ..
 
Charlie Edwards said:
I stole what you wrote? LOL, that's some funny stuff. You wrote that Al only built cues from customer designs.

You sounded reasonable and I somewhat believed that you knew what you were talking about... and that turned out to be a mistake because it has now been shown that you don't have a clue.

I STOLE from you? Get real, you have NOTHING I would want for free, more or less something I would have to STEAL from you!
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Hope you didn't get offended, I was just jk. ;)

I do know what I am talking about. You just need to re-read my post. My post in thread #72 does not direct to this cue alone.

You should see the type of work done by them. From Southwest style to high end Gina. I seen it with my own eyes. I seen their primitive tools they use. I spoke to them and they don't speak English, nor computer/internet literate. Antonio Gabica was my translator. Gabica is a good man and shown good hospitality when I was there.

Like I said in my previous post. They are not educated and are not aware of design theft or cue building ethic. It like giving a housing plan to a construction worker to built a house and no question ask. It is like giving an Armani suit to a tailor, to make one similar one. They do not know if it is wrong, and they will never think it is wrong to do so. They know they didn't steal (not the design) to struggle to get through everyday but put in honest hard work in building cue just for a living.

Having said all this, just want to add in all this remind me of the late Edwin Reyes. We chat a lot when I was in Philippine a few times. I know that the Bautista and Edwin are not in the same boat that sail on the same river even though one of the brothers used to work for him. But if they are, you won't be seeing cue like this here today.
 
mosconiac said:
I've seen a LOT of big name cue makers building cues in the "southwest" style. Why aren't they equally shamed?

EDIT: I'm not taking sides with that question, but I DO think we shouldn't single out any one cuemaker when so many borrow from one another.
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If Laurie was upset and went after a particular cue maker for stealing a design, I am positive you would see the same responses from the cue makers. I bet some of the people who think its no big deal wouldn't reply the same way because its SouthWest and not Eric.

I'll tell you this. I have a lot of respect for what Eric is doing. Not just his designs and craftmanship but the fact that he is willing to stand up for what he believes in. He is being upfront and honest. Some may not like that and call him an ass. That's ok but for every one time of being a so-call ass, he's had 10 posts helping other cue makers or players. There's a lot more behind the scenes that you will never see. Imagine yourself in a cue maker's shoes and I think you'll understand what happened here.
 
Very interesting reading and I agree with Rat in the fact regardless of what side a person falls on in this debate it's nice to see people standing up for what they believe.
I will say though when a cue builder has a waiting list thats years long and the demand on the used market demands top dollar for their cues issues like this will continue to go on. There are many of people that just dont have the income to pay for the top tier cue makers but really enjoy the style of their cues. So when the chance to get a cue designed off of their favorite cue builder comes up at a price they can afford of course they will be interested in going that route even though it's not the real deal. With that said it's NOT the real deal just a similar design and will most likely not play anything the same.
My only thought is I can understand Eric being frustrated by use of a similar design to his but I can't understand being very pissed off because in the long picture it seems his waiting list is very very long and his work stands for it's self!
 
From the very beginning of this thread,I completely understand where Eric is coming from and has every right to his thoughts.Through this whole process it's branched off to many things.I respect Eric for standing his position but to make a long story longer if he would of just contacted Al and talked about it without the knockdowns and insults,things would of run it's course without any repercussions to either guy.No matter who's side you take it should always be done in a tasteful and respectful manner.Takecare Scott:)
 
MY absolute last post to you holier than thou internet detectives.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=225549

The cue in this thread is every bit as much a SugarTree as the scallopped one. However NO ONE calls it out. Why do I think that's the case? Because those who claim to know, wouldn't know Erics cue from a Meucci.

This cue has the same point structure and splice in the area over the wrap. The its got the SAME butt cap treatment with the black disc under the auxilliary wood. So you know where the grey area is, it's between your ears because you're the last people who should be complaining about copying, when you don't even recognize the SIMPLEST places a copy has occured. All you have to do is check out Jamies site and Erics and see this is no coincidence.

CDT licenses REVOLKED.

If Al could cut a micro ring, there is no doubt he would have.

But what shocks me are the responses that "I would know Erics cue from across the room". Yeah ok and you miss this? If I ever make cues, please don't nuthug me.

JV
 
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