New Info Regarding APA Rankings

[poscdr09]

APA is a flawed system anyway(for advanced players)... The people who decide the difference between a 6/7 are more often than not just people who love the APA. In one of the divisions I play in, those people consist of 3 very weak 5's and a SL 6 who power draws every shot... :scratchhead: Honestly what do they know about the difference between a 6 and a 7??
NOTHING
But so goes the APA.... :deadhorse:

BTW, you still may want a spot from Sergent even if he uses your break cue (mine is an OB) to play with (I found that out in Peoria at the RCO)!! lol

Yeah, allegedly hes pretty strong...
I would be wanting at least 50 to 1 odds on the money line, and him shootin with my jumper, wearin an eye patch before I felt comfortable in a straight race! LOL

 

[trustyrusty]

Yeah, allegedly hes pretty strong...
I would be wanting at least 50 to 1 odds on the money line, and him shootin with my jumper, wearin an eye patch before I felt comfortable in a straight race! LOL

lol - I figured he'd read an APA related thread, so I had to say something....when he does - Hey Jeff!

 

[Scott Lee]

poscdr09...Talk about beating a dead horse! When are most folks gonna actually GET it? The APA is not about advanced players...never has been, never will be. It's about the 2's, 3's, and 4's...and building a grassroots group of 'everyman' pool enthusiasts, men and women. In that vein, the APA has done a magnificent job, since their league is at least three times the size of the nearest competitor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

APA is a flawed system anyway(for advanced players)...

 

[Cory in DC]

I would rather be the weakest 7 atleast I know I try . Oh and I probably am the weakest 7 in my league

Many have said this in one way or another, but I'll repeat anyway. A 7 handicaps a team in terms of the rest of the roster. You can argue if that's a feature or a bug, but it's true. So a useful 7 needs to maintain a record well over 50% to be as valuable as a 6 -- say 65% or higher (many 7s are over 80% and some are over 90%).

If you go up to a 7 and then hover around 55%, you'll be doing your team more harm than good because the team won't be able to play the same rosters it could when you were a 6. But you'll still be stuck because a 7 won't drop with a record of 50% or higher.

In other words, IMHO a 6 should be winning 80%+ overall and consistently beating other 6s and some 7s before going up, and the system works to make this approximately true. In my experience, averaging one B&R per match plus marking safeties should do the trick in about 6 weeks.

If you can't do that, then keep practicing! I don't think you have to reach A speed to be a solid APA 7. I think a solid B makes for a strong APA 7 (but you'll usually lose to the 7s that are A players).

Cory

 

[tomgearhart]

As a former APA League Operator for 10-years and who has dealt with many player and team issues, the general consensus of the APA team captains is this: A person who is a 7 is a stupid 6. As was pointed out in an earlier reply, simply ask your LO to lock you in as a 7 for a couple of months and see how you do. I did this for a number of players at various skill levels.

A Few Thoughts

At every skill level, 2 - 7 (8-ball), someone has got to be the lowest player within their skill level and someone has got to be the highest. Where a lot of APA player complaints come from, and also misunderstandings of the APA's handicap system from people on this forum, and from people who bash the APA as the devil himself, is in the understanding of this concept.

Where the APA handicaps seem/are not fair and encourage sandbagging (which, let's face it, it does), I submit to you that without handicaps that state where in his level he/she is at, say a 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, etc., one cannot make an informed decision as to whether he was beat by a sandbagger, a better player, or if that player was just having a good day (although having a good day is probably just a judgement call). If you are a 4.2 and get beat by a 4.9, then I would say that in a race to 10, you are supposed to get beat the majority of the time and it would be easier to swallow.

Many times I've had the lowest player of the 4's (or any other skill level, for that matter), complain: "How can I be a 4 when (and he points to the highest level 4 player) he beats me every time we play?" Then after reviewing his record, I agree and bump him to a 5 and then a month down the road the new 5 comes to me and says: "How can I be a 5 when (and he points to the highest level 5 player) he beats me every time we play?" With the decimal system after the skill number, one could see how close to the next skill level the player was.

The APA probably does not want their players to know where they are at in their skill level so it doesn't encourage sandbagging. I disagree, I think it would stop a lot of complaints.

Tom Gearhart <-----After being an every day lurker....my $.02.

 

[ctyhntr]

Scott,

Insightful post. Thanks for sharing your experience as a former APA league operator for Bozeman Montana.

I'm surprised there have been no mention of the APA Division or 9-ball league, where are geared towards the higher handicapped players. I believe 9-ball ranking goes up to 9 or 10.

poscdr09...Talk about beating a dead horse! When are most folks gonna actually GET it? The APA is not about advanced players...never has been, never will be. It's about the 2's, 3's, and 4's...and building a grassroots group of 'everyman' pool enthusiasts, men and women. In that vein, the APA has done a magnificent job, since their league is at least three times the size of the nearest competitor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[MikeM]

As a former APA League Operator for 10-years and who has dealt with many player and team issues, the general consensus of the APA team captains is this: A person who is a 7 is a stupid 6. As was pointed out in an earlier reply, simply ask your LO to lock you in as a 7 for a couple of months and see how you do. I did this for a number of players at various skill levels.

A Few Thoughts

At every skill level, 2 - 7 (8-ball), someone has got to be the lowest player within their skill level and someone has got to be the highest. Where a lot of APA player complaints come from, and also misunderstandings of the APA's handicap system from people on this forum, and from people who bash the APA as the devil himself, is in the understanding of this concept.

Where the APA handicaps seem/are not fair and encourage sandbagging (which, let's face it, it does), I submit to you that without handicaps that state where in his level he/she is at, say a 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, etc., one cannot make an informed decision as to whether he was beat by a sandbagger, a better player, or if that player was just having a good day (although having a good day is probably just a judgement call). If you are a 4.2 and get beat by a 4.9, then I would say that in a race to 10, you are supposed to get beat the majority of the time and it would be easier to swallow.

Many times I've had the lowest player of the 4's (or any other skill level, for that matter), complain: "How can I be a 4 when (and he points to the highest level 4 player) he beats me every time we play?" Then after reviewing his record, I agree and bump him to a 5 and then a month down the road the new 5 comes to me and says: "How can I be a 5 when (and he points to the highest level 5 player) he beats me every time we play?" With the decimal system after the skill number, one could see how close to the next skill level the player was.

The APA probably does not want their players to know where they are at in their skill level so it doesn't encourage sandbagging. I disagree, I think it would stop a lot of complaints.

Tom Gearhart <-----After being an every day lurker....my $.02.

I agree with you Tom. I run my Tuesday night TAP league and enter the scores every week. With access to the stats I can see everyone's "real" handicap - with the decimal point. I hear the same as you every week, "how can so and so be a 5 when he never loses?". Aside from telling them that he loses plenty, just not when he plays you, if I tell them that so and so is a 5.9 and will very soon move up to a 6 and you are a 5.0 and might move to a 4, they pipe down a little. I don't publish the info, but do share it in order to end arguments.

MM

 

[doitforthegame]

Most important thing on APA Night

1. To play at my home club
2. To play at a cigar friendly location
3. To play at a place with ice cold beer
4. To play at a place with large HD flat screens
5. Not have to wait until the 5th match to play

 

[Maniac]

9 ball is even worse with the 23 rule. My 9 Ball is 9,5,5,5,4,4,3,2. The 23 rule is biggest problem. Its almost impossible to get my 9 to play 9 ball and still be able to win the 9 ball match that night when we have to play 9,4,4,3,2 just so my 9 can even play.

Actually, you could have have played a 5 instead of one of your 4's. Do the math again.

But.......I get your point.

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

What you really want to do here is find out how to shoot like a SL7, but drop down to a SL5 in the process, then your onto something. Good luck in the playoffs!@#

These are the SL5's I always seem to draw !!!

Maniac

 

[Scott Lee]

Tom...What a great post! I remember you from my days as an APA L.O., and loved the stuff you used to with tournaments in OH (that was the first time I ever heard of "triple elimination" tournaments). It's really great to hear from current or former APA League Operators, especially those who ran quality leagues, and didn't deliberately try to "dumb down" the players. Thanks for your contribution. I hope you post more often, and not just on APA threads.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

As a former APA League Operator for 10-years and who has dealt with many player and team issues, the general consensus of the APA team captains is this: A person who is a 7 is a stupid 6. As was pointed out in an earlier reply, simply ask your LO to lock you in as a 7 for a couple of months and see how you do. I did this for a number of players at various skill levels.

A Few Thoughts

At every skill level, 2 - 7 (8-ball), someone has got to be the lowest player within their skill level and someone has got to be the highest. Where a lot of APA player complaints come from, and also misunderstandings of the APA's handicap system from people on this forum, and from people who bash the APA as the devil himself, is in the understanding of this concept.

Where the APA handicaps seem/are not fair and encourage sandbagging (which, let's face it, it does), I submit to you that without handicaps that state where in his level he/she is at, say a 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, etc., one cannot make an informed decision as to whether he was beat by a sandbagger, a better player, or if that player was just having a good day (although having a good day is probably just a judgement call). If you are a 4.2 and get beat by a 4.9, then I would say that in a race to 10, you are supposed to get beat the majority of the time and it would be easier to swallow.

Many times I've had the lowest player of the 4's (or any other skill level, for that matter), complain: "How can I be a 4 when (and he points to the highest level 4 player) he beats me every time we play?" Then after reviewing his record, I agree and bump him to a 5 and then a month down the road the new 5 comes to me and says: "How can I be a 5 when (and he points to the highest level 5 player) he beats me every time we play?" With the decimal system after the skill number, one could see how close to the next skill level the player was.

The APA probably does not want their players to know where they are at in their skill level so it doesn't encourage sandbagging. I disagree, I think it would stop a lot of complaints.

Tom Gearhart <-----After being an every day lurker....my $.02.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

I read through this thread and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.
To the original poster, my simple advice to you would be.

1. Play the best that you can week in and week out. Don't worry about your handicap.

2. Break n Run often, if you can't get out play safe and ensure that it's counted.

3. Keep your winning percentage 75% or better, and innings 2 or less.

If you really need an evaluation of your game and where your S/L should be play Masters. You'll either get better or you'll realize your value as a 6.

To the poster who lives in Maryland and said that people are leaving the APA and going over to Tap I have no Idea where your getting your information, but Maryland has both the Largest and 3rd Largest APA Leagues in the Nation. Maybe all the Tap Deserters are being bused in.

To the poster that posted the Formula, that's just being irresponsible. Information is power and with power comes responsibility. If everyone knows the system then they find away to circumvent the system. If everyone where to that would that make the proposed sandbagging problem even more of an issue.

To the former LO that posted great post.

Beyound that have fun, play pool, and doon't sweat the small stuff.

Black Cat

 

[Banks]

Simple answers

On the innings.. let's say you bnr the first, that's 0, then you win the next game after 1 inning as player B. The fact that you won the game is going to say that you stepped to the table twice. You're thinking in terms of innings being your total turns at the table. You have to consider that the S8, E8, etc markings and winning markings also say something about who shot how many times.

A person who is a 7 is a stupid 6? Shear stupidity. That just means you still couldn't win giving an extra game, so you're just a real bad 7 that's sandbagging, if that's really possible. I've only been a 7 for less than 2 years, but I've been able to play almost every time I wanted to for teams that have had another 7, or with 5s and 6s.

To become a 7, look at having a good amount of your turns end on either running out or a safety. That says that you did not miss and will bring the innings way down. Once you are a 7, though, you will probably be locked in unless you consistently lose.

In league, of course it is going to be better to be a good whatever than it is a bad whatever, simply because you're saying you'd rather be winning more often. Outside of league, I'd rather be a weak 7 than a 6 any day. In league, I try to win and that comes down to a matter of how I'm shooting, the rolls, my opponent's shooting, etc.

Back to your goal.. to become a 7, start working on the decision of whether it is more viable to run out or play safe (which could just as well be on your first shot in some cases).

 

[JB Cases]

I asked my league operator what it was going to take to break into the 7 skill level (it's a personal goal since I have to be in this league). Here was his official email response

"Each week the formula changes depending upon many factors. It is hard to predict your skill level. "

Isn't that a kick in the pants?

Winning your matches in the fewest possible innings with very few mistakes will get you to 7 status quickly.

Or you could be like me and automatically dubbed a 7 or 9 in 9 Ball just by virtue of having played one of the local hustlers and beaten him out of $600.

Actually though the "formula" doesn't change. How the rankings are calculated stays the same and it's dependent on the data that's input as to what ranking the computer generates.

 

[kaznj]

Newstroke your post is refreshing. So many players sandbag and want to be lowered. You, on the other hand, want to improve and be moved up. You are great.
I captained a team for two years and made it Vegas. It was fun for a while. Then I got tired of all the complained about ratings and sandbagging.
Keep of the good work.

 

[tomgearhart]

Tom...What a great post! I remember you from my days as an APA L.O., and loved the stuff you used to with tournaments in OH (that was the first time I ever heard of "triple elimination" tournaments). It's really great to hear from current or former APA League Operators, especially those who ran quality leagues, and didn't deliberately try to "dumb down" the players. Thanks for your contribution. I hope you post more often, and not just on APA threads.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hi Scott, long time no see. Thanks for the kind words. I will try to post more often. Where are you at now?

Speaking of triple-elimination events, I am working on a huge amateur team triple event now with $50,000 added. $25,000 1st prize with about a $195 per person entry fee. I will start a thread next week about this. I don't want to hijack this thread.

Tom Gearhart

 

[Scott Lee]

Tom...Four years ago I moved from MT to MI (Battle Creek)...not so far from you now! Good to see you're still involved with tournaments! Best of luck with this one!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hi Scott, long time no see. Thanks for the kind words. I will try to post more often. Where are you at now?

Speaking of triple-elimination events, I am working on a huge amateur team triple event now with $50,000 added. $25,000 1st prize with about a $195 per person entry fee. I will start a thread next week about this. I don't want to hijack this thread.

Tom Gearhart

 

[poscdr09]

To the poster that posted the Formula, that's just being irresponsible. Information is power and with power comes responsibility. If everyone knows the system then they find away to circumvent the system. If everyone where to that would that make the proposed sandbagging problem even more of an issue.

This information is posted publicly on the internet, therefore me trying to help the OP by giving him correct information after his LO misinformed him is not irresponsible.
I understand where you are coming from as far as widespread sandbagging is concerned. Thats why I dont willingly point this out to people with the wrong intentions.
NewStroke's concern is, I believe, becoming the best player he can be and becoming recognized as having the highest SL achievable under the APA format. The formula is an outstanding guideline as to how one becomes a "7", as with the formula your SL is very predictable based on past performace.
NewStroke, good luck and knock em' dead!

 

[Black Cat 5791]

This information is posted publicly on the internet, therefore me trying to help the OP by giving him correct information after his LO misinformed him is not irresponsible.
I understand where you are coming from as far as widespread sandbagging is concerned. Thats why I dont willingly point this out to people with the wrong intentions.
NewStroke's concern is, I believe, becoming the best player he can be and becoming recognized as having the highest SL achievable under the APA format. The formula is an outstanding guideline as to how one becomes a "7", as with the formula your SL is very predictable based on past performace.
NewStroke, good luck and knock em' dead!

I said what said because the Organization doen't want the information out at all. The information is priveliged to LO's only, it was leaked when it was and because it's still floating around in cyber space doesn't mean that it's OK to devulge it. I know and have known the Formula for a few years, but I don't ever advertise it nor do I tell anyone how it works.

I encourage everyone to be the best that they can be. I encourage teams to grow and eventually split if nessasary to improve their league lives. Sandbagging Teams, and Players are what keeps this paticular league in the spotlight all the time. It is possible for everyone tho operate with in the system and still have fun and play pool.

I do all that I can to make certain that things run smoothly and in accordance with the rules.

I think that people complain because it's what they want to do. Anyone that has such a problem with the handicap system should simply play Masters that way there is no handicap at all, you play all out or you don't play at all.

Anyone that say's well there's no Masters Division where I live step up to the challenge and form one it's not that difficult.

Black Cat.

 

[daphish1]

IMO, it doesn't really matter if people know the formula or not. People have been manipulating the system for a long time without knowing exactly how it works.